Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Trystan Hart on November 08, 2014, 08:56:44 am
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What? Noooo!
Seriously, this feature has ruined good lobbies for me. If you join a game with friends, and the ships shuffle about, after the third game, you might end up on the wrong team and have to back out to lobby and start all over again. Really, I don't understand this feature at all. If you're having fun in a lobby, why get forced out of it after 3 matches? It's turning into a session-ender for me.
Also, It was a curious decision to have the default option at the end of a match as 'return to crew form' rather than 'rematch'. 99% of the time, I want to rematch. If I don't, I will just leave the lobby and re-crew manually. Forcing you out of the game just makes me realise that I have more important stuff I should be getting on with. I'm sure there's some logic behind it, but I really can't see it.
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Really, I don't understand this feature at all. If you're having fun in a lobby, why get forced out of it after 3 matches?
I'm giving you the quote from Keyvias post trying to explain this
Let me take a moment to explain why the rematch changes are there.
As I stated in another thread. Rematch takes people from the queue.
As matchmaker is trying to create a match with 20 people in queue, if a match rematches and people leave (which happens all the time.) That lobby takes people from the queue which now means the next game created has less people (and less opportunity to balance) due to having people removed from the queue.
If requeueing it taking a lot of time, let us know and we'll do our best to find ways to lower that .
We'll definitely keep an eye on the changes, but I promise they're there with the goal of improving the system for all. We will never say any system is perfect and we'll always be looking for ways to improve the system.
Yeah, I disagree with it too. If I find a good crew I want to play with them many times, maybe whole 1-2 hour session. Always friends or people who managed to confirm their skills/knowledge/communicativity in at least 1-2 matches >> random uknown people from matchmaker.
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Thanks for the clarification. I missed that post.
Anyway, I do still think that this is a case of the mechanics of the game interfering with the fun of it, in the name of convenience. I really hope it gets cleared up.
Often the person who is put in charge of the re-crew is a n00b who does not realise that he has to click play, even if everyone explains it to him over and over (there are a lot of people who don't understand English or have their sound off), then by the time he gets it, some people leave and then you have to start the whole process all over again. This happens about 70% of the time for me. It's just messy, is all.
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Unresponsive player guide:
1. Try using voice chat (if you can)
2. Try writing in regular chat
3. Send PM
4. If none of the above works leave the lobby and report player for being unresponsive tit.
Often PM-ing works :P
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My unresponsive player checklist:
1. Ask in voice chat
2. Ask again, louder, more slowly
3. Repeat their name a few times
4. Type in text chat
5. Repeat step 4 several times, telling them that just because I want them to be an engineer does not mean they won't be using a gun.
6. Repeated PMs
7. Minor exasperated swearing
8. Go through the list of possible languages the might speak in voice chat and text.
9. Refuse to fly the ship ANYWHERE until they listen.
10. Crying and general desolation.
11. Report
12. Moan about the lack of kick functionality to the rest of the lobby.
13. Leave the lobby (that may be full of friends and good players), end up waiting for another 10 minutes before I get back ingame
14. New mute n00b gunner joins. Return to step 1.
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Ok, here's mine
1. Ask basterd out in voice chat
2. Remind basterd that he is a stupid basterd
3. Reveal that his mom's a slut in text chat
4. Try sarcasm on voice chat
5. Repeat until getting frustrated
6. Bash basterd few times with spanne' or mallet, or try gassing him with extinguisher - maybe this will help after all...
7. Go full retarded suicidal, thinking that this game is Portal 2, and everything around is just a big portal, getting us back on main deck.
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I really ahte this. Please remove this "feature".
I don't see why it should possibly matter that people in a match are no longer in the queue. If people want to continue to rematch and keep playing together, that means the matchmaker has done its job for them (or they sorted it out themselves). The point of the matchmaker is to deliver people to a balanced match, is it not? If people are in a match they like... DON'T TAKE THEM OUT! How counter-intuitive is this crap?
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This. Exactly this.
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This was the worst thing Muse ever did.
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If people want to continue to rematch and keep playing together, that means the matchmaker has done its job for them (or they sorted it out themselves). The point of the matchmaker is to deliver people to a balanced match, is it not? If people are in a match they like... DON'T TAKE THEM OUT!
Sparky, you have my spanner
And my salute
Little digression - for me personally since 1.3.8 and hotfixes game became less social. I mean, there are many people I have seen and played with on regular basis before patch and now I rarely see them around. We can't have a talk about tactics and game in the lobbies because they have timer now and there's very little time even for loadout discussion amongst crew. I can't make meaningful game mates because game decides that I can only play match with the same people three times. I think Muse somewhere, sometime got lost and "solving" one problem they created a several more and now they want to go forward counting that it will be fine. I'm honestly afraid it will not.
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This was the worst thing Muse ever did.
Supermassive Black Hole was worse. I still feel betrayed.
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If some people don't like this and that, they should write and email to muse, with reason and arguements in it of course. With an enough emails they should change it or find a better way to implement their ideas.
You know, because muse doesn't look at the forum much, and why would they look at the feedback and suggestions board...
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This was the worst thing Muse ever did.
Supermassive Black Hole was worse. I still feel betrayed.
I'm dying of laughter. Take my salute, sir.
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I actually think this might be a positive change. I felt to me like matches that rematch a bunch often lead to lopsided games.. Now I can't be sure because we can't see what exactly is going on with MM... we don't see MMR.. We don't know how it re-balances a rematch lobby.. etc.. and I can only go by what I see happening..
But I certainly had a lot better (as in they looked/felt balanced in general) matches after the patch then before it.. but that could just be luck...
I wish we could see more info on whats actually going on though.. If the change is helping MM produce more balanced games, then I am ok with it.
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If some people don't like this and that, they should write and email to muse, with reason and arguements in it of course. With an enough emails they should change it or find a better way to implement their ideas.
You know, because muse doesn't look at the forum much, and why would they look at the feedback and suggestions board...
Done. Hopefully they will read it and heed it.
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This was the worst thing Muse ever did.
Supermassive Black Hole was worse. I still feel betrayed.
You have my salute and thanks, sir :D
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So Muse replied to my email and essentially told me that what players want isn't important in this decision and it's all about the numbers. I urge anyone who disagrees with them to reach out and also email them since it's more likely to be read than posts on the forum.
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honestly, I don't care who I'm playing against, it's the people I'm playing with that matter. just as long as the match isn't stacked (as it so often appears to be).
but when the lobbies go into crew form, if I was in a match with ship scramble on, if I was with a large group (clan matches), the crew I want to stay with can get broken up. it's...clumsy. and I don't know how to fix it, but if they fix that, then I don't care so much about being lobbed into crew form, so long as it finds a new match quickly (as it sometimes doesn't with the larger crew forms).
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@Sparklerfish,
That's a bit unfair of a summation of our conversation. I apologize if explained it poorly. I'll try to do a better job here.
Why only three rematches?
Because rematches were happening in unfair matches and no I'm not talking just numbers, I'm talking about numerous games I and other team members experienced where the match ended, was rematched, and almost the entire losing side of players left, despite the scramble. Just because the vote for rematch won doesn't mean that all of the players are going to rematch. Those who lose often don't vote.
So now we have a half filled lobby that removes people from queue in a rush way to attempt to fill the gaps in the lobby.
Does this happen in every lobby? No, but it happens in enough that the queue suffers for it because once players are removed from queue to fill this half filled lobby, now you have a queue with even fewer players to make a good and balanced games.
When you start returning people from lobbies back into queue the system has more players to build better games faster.
To give an example: since this update our average queue is less than 30 seconds and gives an average MMR difference of 36, at under 50 the higher rated side has less than a 60% win rate. This means it's pretty close to a 50/50 chance for both sides.
The reason 3 rematches was chosen this should give every ship a chance to swap while still putting people back into queue.
Our goal isn't to disenfranchise players, but to help the greatest number of them. Does the data matter to us? Completely. Behind each leave, quit, and unbalanced match are players that are not having a good round.
This doesn't mean that we ignore feedback, but that what one player sees may not be what every or the average player sees. We have to try and balance all the conflicting views we get and at the end of the day make the decision that we believe that will give the greatest amount of fun.
@Shaelyn,
You bring up a very good point. We'll check out a better way to flow this so big groups don't get split up or at least have an easier way to get back together.
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To give an example: since this update our average queue is less than 30 seconds and gives an average MMR difference of 36, at under 50 the higher rated side has less than a 60% win rate. This means it's pretty close to a 50/50 chance for both sides.
I'd like more info like this to come out on match maker..
Can you say what the numbers were like before the hotfix? How much did limiting lobbies to 3 rematches improve the over all numbers?
I think if we were given more info about whats going on people wouldn't feel as upset if they can see the improvements these changes have..
Was there any posts made on how MMR works or how match maker basically tries to do stuff?
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Thanks for the explanation Keyvias. I can understand the logic of it, but I still think it's running into a crucial consideration: it feels like the game is forcing a compromise to make up for its own mechanical shortcomings in matchmaking.
I really don't mean to be rude, but the last time I went on with my clan, we had about 7 games in a row where we were returned to the crew form after each one, because we were a 3-4ship crew, the match making system was dropping us in (presumably the only available) noob lobbies, where we completely wiped the floor each time and they all left. I just stopped, because it was no fun and probably scaring off new players, and all my requests to swap ship slot were being ignored, so I couldn't manually put myself on the losing side to get more of a challenge.
The trouble with that is that when you go to crew formation manually and invite from your friends list, it will put you all on the same team, and probably won't find a balanced team for you to fight against, because it won't shuffle up the ships from your crew form to even the teams. If you DON'T go to crew formation manually, chances are you're in a crew witha few noobs, who will leave and keep interrupting the search for a new match, or won't realise the crew is theirs and won't click play, so everyone else has to leave and start again.
Since then I've got into a bunch of really good lobbies. Ususally after a couple of games, peoples' friends join via the community pane and we'd swap ship slots where necessary to keep the match balanced. Then you get one really sweet match that makes you remember why you still play the game, and suddenly you're dumped back into the crew formation at the end of it, and have to start the whole process over again.
I'm sure matchmaking will get better, but at the moment, (whether or not it works well at peak play times) it feels like it's not working well, and this 3-match countdown just stops us from manually making good matches, and drops us out of good lobbies when no one wanted to leave.
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I don't know what these numbers are based on but it seems like it is nearly impossible to create a high level match that's balanced without giving some time for players to filter in and out and invite their friends. Yesterday for the FIRST TIME EVER I was in a balanced 4v4 with high-skill captains and crew. It was challenging, fun, and nobody was getting stomped. People weren't leaving and would have loved more rematches.
Can you guys please open your eyes and see that matchmaking and removing player control is not serving the needs of higher level players? When we find lobbies we like, it is due to lots of manual adjusting, being invited, etc -- our last resources to contruct our own balanced lobbies. Putting us back in the matchmaker will either 1. Drop us back into the lobby we were just in (which happens a lot), or 2. Set up another pub stomp in which the newer players leave after (or during!) their first match, in which case we wind up with the same circumstance you're trying to avoid, or 3. Leave us sitting in the crew formation for 15 minutes until we get bored and log off (or create a custom lobby, invite our friends, and remake basically the exact same lobby that we were forcibly booted from).
Dude. Please listen to your community. We want enjoyable matches just as much as everyone, and if your change is causing things to not be enjoyable, screw your effing statistics and LISTEN TO US.
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Dude. Please listen to your community. We want enjoyable matches just as much as everyone, and if your change is causing things to not be enjoyable, screw your effing statistics and LISTEN TO US.
See, the thing is, there's about oh, 4-5 outspoken people about this, the data from Muse often paint a vastly different picture for the average user than what you yourself may experience. They do listen, but can't just do anything/everything an extremely small vocal majority clamor about; like 90% (probably an exaggeration but you get the point) of the playing population don't even visit/know about the forums.
To give an example: since this update our average queue is less than 30 seconds and gives an average MMR difference of 36, at under 50 the higher rated side has less than a 60% win rate. This means it's pretty close to a 50/50 chance for both sides.
I'd like more info like this to come out on match maker..
Can you say what the numbers were like before the hotfix? How much did limiting lobbies to 3 rematches improve the over all numbers?
I think if we were given more info about whats going on people wouldn't feel as upset if they can see the improvements these changes have..
Was there any posts made on how MMR works or how match maker basically tries to do stuff?
I don't really think Muse has to share any of this information like at all if they don't want to. You barely hear about any behind the scenes matchmaking numbers from any game that uses it.
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yes, perhaps 90% of the player base has no idea the forum exists, but uh so far I have found precious few people either on or off the forums who are in favor of limiting rematches.
Do you think that the people who post on the forums have views that aren't representative of the player base at large? Should our opinions be discounted just because not everyone who plays the game posts?
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yes, perhaps 90% of the player base has no idea the forum exists, but uh so far I have found precious few people either on or off the forums who are in favor of limiting rematches.
Do you think that the people who post on the forums have views that aren't representative of the player base at large? Should our opinions be discounted just because not everyone who plays the game posts?
No, but you're acting like the vocal minority represents EVERYONE playing, which is completely untrue.
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yes, perhaps 90% of the player base has no idea the forum exists, but uh so far I have found precious few people either on or off the forums who are in favor of limiting rematches.
Do you think that the people who post on the forums have views that aren't representative of the player base at large? Should our opinions be discounted just because not everyone who plays the game posts?
No, but you're acting like the vocal minority represents EVERYONE playing, which is completely untrue.
You're acting like the vocal majority is a minority, which is completely untrue.
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To give an example: since this update our average queue is less than 30 seconds and gives an average MMR difference of 36, at under 50 the higher rated side has less than a 60% win rate. This means it's pretty close to a 50/50 chance for both sides.
I'd like more info like this to come out on match maker..
Can you say what the numbers were like before the hotfix? How much did limiting lobbies to 3 rematches improve the over all numbers?
I think if we were given more info about whats going on people wouldn't feel as upset if they can see the improvements these changes have..
Was there any posts made on how MMR works or how match maker basically tries to do stuff?
I don't really think Muse has to share any of this information like at all if they don't want to. You barely hear about any behind the scenes matchmaking numbers from any game that uses it.
Did I say they have to? I believe I said, I'd like them to. (I guess in away... my feedback is to give us more feedback.. that seems weird)..
Also in the October 31st Fireside Chat Howard/Bubbles said toward the end (like the one hour mark?), he wants to make a post this week (I think he meant this week?) with more info on what all they are doing and how its effecting matchmaker.. How much numbers that will involve if any, I guess well see if he makes that post.
At any rate I am not trying to arguing with you about it or anything, I simple meant more info like the above would be nice so we actually can understand how its working and how these changes are improving the situation.
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If people want to continue to rematch and keep playing together, that means the matchmaker has done its job for them (or they sorted it out themselves). The point of the matchmaker is to deliver people to a balanced match, is it not? If people are in a match they like... DON'T TAKE THEM OUT!
Sparky, you have my spanner
And my salute
Like I've said on the 1.3.8 Hotfix 2 release notes, I don't overly mind the forced 3 match re-match in the opened queued lobbies (I'm not overly happy with it either but I can live with it). I do however want it completely removed from custom matches, even if the custom match is opened to the queue. If someone took the time to create a custom match then there is a reason for it and I don't think anyone really wants to re-set up their custom match ever 3 matches.
yes, perhaps 90% of the player base has no idea the forum exists, but uh so far I have found precious few people either on or off the forums who are in favor of limiting rematches.
Do you think that the people who post on the forums have views that aren't representative of the player base at large? Should our opinions be discounted just because not everyone who plays the game posts?
No, but you're acting like the vocal minority represents EVERYONE playing, which is completely untrue.
You're acting like the vocal majority is a minority, which is completely untrue.
I do think what sparkler says is more the majority than the minority.
To give an example: since this update our average queue is less than 30 seconds and gives an average MMR difference of 36, at under 50 the higher rated side has less than a 60% win rate. This means it's pretty close to a 50/50 chance for both sides.
The reason 3 rematches was chosen this should give every ship a chance to swap while still putting people back into queue.
Our goal isn't to disenfranchise players, but to help the greatest number of them. Does the data matter to us? Completely. Behind each leave, quit, and unbalanced match are players that are not having a good round.
This doesn't mean that we ignore feedback, but that what one player sees may not be what every or the average player sees. We have to try and balance all the conflicting views we get and at the end of the day make the decision that we believe that will give the greatest amount of fun.
OK, I understand that the numbers are be important. But I also think the community feed back is just as important. You state that behind each leave, quit, and unbalanced match are players that are not having a good round. So shall the players that are unhappy with the matches that the match making system puts them in just leave that lobby and go straight back to queue and try over and over again until they find one that is balanced??? Will this show which players are unhappy with the match making system and the lobbies they are put in better than just staying in the unbalanced lobby and pub stomping? (These are actual serious questions and not sarcasm. I want to know the best way to help fix this system). After the last hotfix 3 out of 10 of my matches have been reasonably balanced which is an improvement from the 1.3.8 where pretty much all 10 of the matches were unbalanced. However, there this still a lot of room to improve this.
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Yeah, the thing about the vocal minority is that I was motivated to come on here and say it because I got sick of hearing it (and saying it) all the time in the lobbies themselves. I know that's hardly a representative survey, but I have not yet found anyone ingame who likes the 3-rematches thing, yet I have found tons of people who get annoyed that they;ve jsut been botted out of the first balanced lobby they've found all day.
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@ Caprontos,
Definitely happy to share more info on the matchmaker (sorry for the delay, there's a bunch of support emails so it's spiting my attention horribly.)
So the average end of match score was a 90 mmr difference back in match list. Not terrible, but not good, and with a lot more edge cases and as I said in a fireside we could very often tell you who was going to win each match. Time for lobby start was roughly 14 minutes (This is creation to start), which was absolutely terrible.
Now matchmakers code has gone through quite a bit of changes and I am not the engineer who made it, but let me try to explain the flow.
Go to the play menu
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Matchmaker checks how many crew vs pilots there are in queue and makes a suggestion
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You click play
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The match system checks if there's any open lobbies that are novice or regular (depending on what you are) and where your mmr would fit best.
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If no matches need players the queue starts building a match with the other players in the queue
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At any point while it's getting 16 players together for a 2v2 or 24 for a 3v3 a player is needed to fill an empty already made slot they are taken from the queue and put in that game
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You are placed into a match that attempts to match mmr between teams and give each team two engineers and one gunner (unless they chose something different in crew form)
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Match starts and then ends
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Players vote on rematch or not (rematch always wins)
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Players leave rematches lobby and matchmaker tries to fill the gaps as quickly as possible.
That's a really rough overview of the system and there's a lot of little code logic that make it work that way, but if you have any other questions please let me know.
@ Numbers vs People
Both have merit. When I brought up the numbers it wasn't to ignore what was said here. It's to show that we have conflicting information to deal with, we even on player feedback on the new system being more effective at it's job, so it's not just "you're fighting our handy dandy chart." A big part of our job is finding out which sacrifice is the best to make. We knew capping rematch would be a sacrifice, but we believe the good outweighs the bad. The positive effect on balance and speed would be more important than the reduction of flexibility.
I'm not trying to say anyone's opinion is less meaningful or unimportant, but there is quite a bit of data we have.
This is why I like use cases like Shaelyn's. If our system is hindering big group play, that's bad and something that should be fixed. This doesn't need evidence, argument, or debate.
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If our system is hindering big group play, that's bad and something that should be fixed.
On that case, could I suggest a small change? When in the crew form, have a checkbox to enable ship-shuffling when the matchmaker places you in a lobby. Rather than it failing to find balanced opponents for your high level 4-ship crew, it could put two of the ships on blue, and fill any empty spots with stragglers from the queue.
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Trystan,
That's an awesome idea! Though we already have a system for that if you create a custom game and after placing your team on either side opening it to queue.
I definitely like you idea though for people who want an easy way to say "I want these ships in the game, put them wherever."
Let me check with the programmers and see how hard to put a button like that in would be.
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Would be nice for captains to have a button in crew formation to split their ship off from the rest of the formation. If I'm teamed with a ship I don't especially care to fly with again and we get sent to crew formation, I'd like to be able to easily requeue with just my ship. This would also have the advantage of making it easier for matchmaker to find appropriate matches both for my ship and that other ship, because it's working with smaller units.
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The positive effect on balance and speed would be more important than the reduction of flexibility.
I would rather wait a couple more minutes for the matchmaker to fill the empty spots in a lobby that I've been enjoying than be torn away from players I'm having fun with.
Numbers DO NOT adequately reflect QUALITATIVE player experience. Being shuffled around to new lobbies is not fun. Being forced away from a fun match is not fun. Being stuck in crew formation watching a spinning circle is not as fun as chilling in a lobby with ships of my friends to talk to.
Qualitative player experience seems to be lower on your priority list than your quantitative statistics on MMR and balance. Not a fan.
Maybe you could have it base rematches remaining on how many people leave afterwards. If nearly everyone is sticking around, don't make them leave; if enough people are leaving that it's burdensome for the matchmaker to fill it, have it go to crew formation. I don't know. Something, ANYTHING, to make it so that if WE ACTUALLY HAVE A GREAT LOBBY that we don't have to have it taken away because sometimes unbalanced lobbies get rematched.
"sometimes unbalanced lobbies vote for rematch" and "sometimes a bunch of people leave a lobby" isn't a justification for "you can actually literally never keep a lobby going even if it's enjoyable for most people involved"
Maybe we could have an option at the end of the match where you could vote "rematch", "return to crew formation", or "I individually want to leave and find a new lobby" so that the matchmaker could know in advance how many people are leaving and how to treat the lobby?
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On that case, could I suggest a small change? When in the crew form, have a checkbox to enable ship-shuffling when the matchmaker places you in a lobby. Rather than it failing to find balanced opponents for your high level 4-ship crew, it could put two of the ships on blue, and fill any empty spots with stragglers from the queue.
Though we already have a system for that if you create a custom game and after placing your team on either side opening it to queue.
This isn't a bad idea. Keyvias, I often do what you suggest here but in knowing that we are trying to get match making to work, my friends and I often try to stay in the match making system rather than start another lobby, so I think this idea would be beneficial.
Would be nice for captains to have a button in crew formation to split their ship off from the rest of the formation.
I like this idea, too. ;)
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@sparklerfish,
The reason those great matches are formed has a lot to do with the fact there are people in the queue to make that lobby.
Before the hotfix initial matches were some of the weakest games in the system. This is because players were always taken to half filled lobbies that never ended. So the queue rarely had enough people in there to make great games.
@ Ship shuffle for crew form
Jerry said it'd be a little bit of work for ship shuffling crew form, but it's possible. So it's definitely on the list of things we're going to investigate and try to do well.
@Ship split off abilities
Would it be better to have the ability to take a ship out of a crew form or would it be better to have return to crew form only take single ships back, but give them an easy button to invite an entire other friend's ships.
I can see strengths in both systems, but I'm leaning towards crew form returns single ships, but give a lot more tools for getting friends in quick.
What do you guys think?
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@sparklerfish,
The reason those great matches are formed has a lot to do with the fact there are people in the queue to make that lobby.
Before the hotfix initial matches were some of the weakest games in the system. This is because players were always taken to half filled lobbies that never ended. So the queue rarely had enough people in there to make great games.
I vehemently disagree with this, actually. The best lobbies I've been in have been the ones in which players have exercised the most control -- starting a custom lobby, forming crews, inviting friends, and so on. If you're in a high-level lobby with only one rematch remaining, some slots open up, and you invite some friends, they only get to play one match. How is that helpful? How does that improve the main purpose of the game -- FUN?
Initial matches suck more often because we haven't had time to sort them out ourselves yet. Usually by the third rematch, players who aren't having as much fun have left, and are replaced by people who are better suited to the skill level of the lobby, but then the game is like "NOPE SORRY YOU GOT THIS SET UP AND NICE, YOU'RE DONE NOW!" and it's incredibly frustrating. :/
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Keyvias, I actually had a thought to throw out there. In the last hotfix when you guys created it so novice levels 1-7 would be put in novice matches first, this actually did seem to help with balancing some. (Still needs work). So I'm wondering 2 things: 1) Would increasing the novice level to say 10 help this even more and 2) IF we get the match making system working to the way Muse and the players expected it to work...would it be possible in the future for the forced 3 re-match system to be a filter that can be turned on and off based on the lobby, sort of like the swap function used to be, were people could select forced 3 re-matched lobbies or not?
Would it be better to have the ability to take a ship out of a crew form or would it be better to have return to crew form only take single ships back, but give them an easy button to invite an entire other friend's ships.
I can see strengths in both systems, but I'm leaning towards crew form returns single ships, but give a lot more tools for getting friends in quick.
What do you guys think?
To answer this question... This actually is a hard decision. At first I thought the first option would be better because the system already sends us back to crew formation so in my mind the least work would be to add the ability here for 1 ship to leave crew form. BUT in thinking about it...if I understand the second option: every ship individually would get sent back to a crew form and there would be a bottom/option to easily invite friends ships (EASY is the key word here)...I might actually like this option slightly more since forced swap lobbies are still a thing and it's quite possible that you might not be on the same side as your friends when you go back to queue.
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@rematch
So the biggest issue is matches that never end. That means these lobbies are always taking players from queue and they're never putting anyone back. In many situations it's just not sustainable to let every lobby rematch constantly and will lead to bad initial matches and often bad rematches as entire ships leave.
Pure custom games will always have unlimited matches. So if you go through the effort and get in friends and build your own match, you'll never have to worry about the cap.
@Sparkler
After that match finishes you can requeue and have another 4 games. So it's an average of 30 seconds of wait for roughly an hour and a half of play time. By waiting that half minute you it improves not just your initial games (especially when you don't have friends on call) but also rematched games as there are more people in the queue to be put into your rematched lobby and keep it balanced.
@ lv 7 vs lv 10
What it comes down to is are level 7 players ineffective teamates, the reason we blocked novice from regular game is A) they hurt balance, but B) and more importantly having to teach every game hurts fun. So if level 7s force crews and captains to take time to teach them boring stuff every round we can definitely check it out.
As far as for making balance better or worse our average game is pretty much as close to 50/50 as we can get right now. There will always be edge cases, but overall we're looking really good on balanced matches.
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@Sparkler
After that match finishes you can requeue and have another 4 games. So it's an average of 30 seconds of wait for roughly an hour and a half of play time. By waiting that half minute you it improves not just your initial games (especially when you don't have friends on call) but also rematched games as there are more people in the queue to be put into your rematched lobby and keep it balanced.
30 seconds for an individual player, maybe. If you're in a 4v4 and get dumped into crewform, you'll sit there for 20 minutes. It's awful and it's faster to just make a custom lobby and open it to the queue (zomg! a half full lobby! oh noes! oh wait... we could have accomplished the same thing by just not being forced to leave the one we were already in)
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@ lv 7 vs lv 10
What it comes down to is are level 7 players ineffective teamates, the reason we blocked novice from regular game is A) they hurt balance, but B) and more importantly having to teach every game hurts fun. So if level 7s force crews and captains to take time to teach them boring stuff every round we can definitely check it out.
As far as for making balance better or worse our average game is pretty much as close to 50/50 as we can get right now. There will always be edge cases, but overall we're looking really good on balanced matches.
**I had edited my previous post with the answer to your question about crew formation but realized that you have posted since then but you can see my thoughts there**
Also I would like to thank you for all the time you take in these forums to get players opinions so the best possible solution is found. People like you is who makes MUSE what they are and why I am so in love with this game and the community.
Like I mentioned the balance is better with the 1-7 levels for novice but I have personally not seen that it's close to 50/50. I also think that level 7 isn't high enough to be thrown in with 25+ level players. I'm a level 7 pilot (even though I'm a level 45 engi) and would never ever imagine flying against anyone greater than a level 10-13 pilot right now because I just do not have the skills to fly against pilots higher than that. I also would feel guilty if my co-pilot was a level 35...I know I would be the weak link and the reason we lost and I know the higher level captains on the other team wouldn't have fun either as they stomped me. I think I only have maybe 15 games as pilot and at a level 7...I would still consider me a Novice pilot for at least double that amount.
Mighty I add I've had some of the best pilots teaching me... I could never imagine if i was actually a new player without their help learning things that I have,
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How possible is it to change the rematch system to something more like...
Well first I assume currently its simple majority.. if 51+% of the people in a lobby want the rematch the game rematches right? maybe..
If that's the case.. what if for every rematch after the third the % of votes needed goes up so.. If a lobby is really good it will last longer by virtue that people are voting for it to rematch.. but it will still eventually end.. Even if its simply just 10% per rematch.. that would be up to 7 rematches.. Before you need everyone to vote yes to keep it going.. 50% for match 1 and rematch 2-3.. 60% for rematch 4.. 70% for rematch 5.. 80% for rematch 6.. 90% for rematch 7..and 100% for every rematch after 8..
Lobbies will probably still end after 3 in general.. or not much beyond.. If the mass leaves I see after many matches and rematches is an indicator of how many voted..
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@sparklerfish,
The reason those great matches are formed has a lot to do with the fact there are people in the queue to make that lobby.
I lol'd, and then cried a little when I read this - I thought we made it pretty clear that the good games are the ones we manually organise, and that its a most rare occasion for the matchmaker to spit you into something enjoyable.
thank you. much truth.
the only reason I've been able to find balanced and fun lobbies is by actively avoiding using matchmaking.
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the only reason I've been able to find balanced and fun lobbies is by actively avoiding using matchmaking.
So much this.
I've stated my point many times before
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One good thing about the 3 rematches is that it gives me time to think about sleeping instead of playing Guns all night.
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Can we come out and say what everyone is thinking but hasn't actually said?
Matchmaking, enforced removal of people from lobbies, and all of these other "balance" changes serve the needs of newer/novice players to the detriment of more experienced players.
Experienced players get frustrated and play less often or just refuse to play in pub matches. This makes a smaller pool to draw from for matchmaking, making it serve our needs even LESS well.
Instead of giving us back the control we used to have to construct matches, more control is removed to help offset the failings of matchmaker to meet our needs.
I don't need a system to tell me if a match is balanced or not. I've played enough to know. I don't need a system to tell me when a lobby is failing and needs to be abandoned. I can tell when everyone is leaving.
You're losing your biggest supporters by making these unpopular changes and no amount of regurgitated statistics is going to change the fact that people are having unsatisfactory experiences. You can't sit back and say, "well, you're wrong about not having fun, because the numbers say otherwise."
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Can we come out and say what everyone is thinking but hasn't actually said?
I'm not thinking that.
Honestly I think I've been less frustrated with match maker then I was with the old match list. It isn't prefect, but it does a decent job for where its at. It is a bit different then I expected it to be..
I also certainly find a lot more games now then before. I can play a game in the time it use to take to find a game... So that alone is a nice change. and yes I have fun in most of the lobbies (from either system).
Maybe its cause I play mainly engi, and not pilot/gunner so I don't have to deal with a lot of things idk. I can see a lot of issues with match maker for pilots, and some for gunner that engi doesn't really need to deal with.. Maybe I am having better results then others and.. my luck will run out haha- or my standards to have fun are lower..
Also I feel all the people saying "I need a custom game to have a fun experienced lobby" .. Its always been that way really. It was rare to find an actually balanced high skill lobby with the match list. You had to plan for it and manually set it up to do it most of the time.
As for just fun lobbies (no experience required), idk that depends on you I guess. I can't decide whats fun for someone else.
Basically, I don't think match maker is a lot different to the match list, its a change sure but the outcome to me isn't much different. Regardless if I play with friends or random lobbies..
The biggest change is instead of picking a lobby I want, a lobby is picked for me.. but then I can always leave and try again if its really bad.. So I can still pick.. Sorta like the match list where I remember just jumping from game to game down the list, trying to find one that didn't suck.. Sometimes not finding one at all.. Though I've opted to leave once in maybe 20 games since the hotfix with match maker for a better lobby.
I am not trying to arguing your point of view/opinion btw, and I know a bunch of people who agree with you an that's fine, muse should be aware there are people who feel how you do.. So they can try to address everyone's issues/concerns and make things something most people are happy with.., but if we are just saying how we feel about it match maker currently "but didn't say it", then I can say to right? Even if it's a bit different..
Also I want to add.. I wasn't for match maker before - from the start when they said they wanted to do it, but when I decided to play again after a vacation, and learning they did it.. I decided to play with it, with an open mind and not be to judgmental about it.. and I think they proved it can be a good thing, imo.
I think it needs work in some areas, but they can't improve it instantly.. I hope in a month or two its improved and I hope match maker leads to more new people sticking around...
If it does make the community grow, then match maker will be their best update. If it doesn't then.. history will laugh at you muse.. maybe.. I really hope match maker is giving new players better and more experiences then the match list did.. If they stay we will have a lot more experienced people to play with in time..
Anyways that's enough opinion from me, I will put my suggestions for how to improve match maker in there own topics, as they come up if they don't already have one.. or maybe an email..
I wish I could just make short posts.. :P
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Sorry to claim to speak for you Caprontos; I know I don't speak for everyone, just trying to articulate a view I think a lot of the people posting share.
Basically, I don't think match maker is a lot different to the match list, its a change sure but the outcome to me isn't much different. Regardless if I play with friends or random lobbies..
The biggest change is instead of picking a lobby I want, a lobby is picked for me.. but then I can always leave and try again if its really bad.. So I can still pick.. Sorta like the match list where I remember just jumping from game to game down the list, trying to find one that didn't suck.. Sometimes not finding one at all.. Though I've opted to leave once in maybe 20 games since the hotfix with match maker for a better lobby.
At least with a lobby list you could hop around until you found a lobby that looked like it would be suitable rather than gambling each time with the matchmaker. I could know exactly which lobbies I'd looked in and who was in them and determine if there was one I thought would provide me with a good match.
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hmmmmm.
I stand somewhere in the middle. I've gotten used to matchmaker and getting what I want out of it...or rather, working around it. if I actually used the matchmaker, solo'd it, I'd probably still hate it. but right now, with a few tweaks to crew form to make it easier to fly with my clan, and matchmaking and I get along well enough.
my experience, though. overall, the 3 rematch thing is an inconvenience; I don't find it a huge deal. however, installing that limitation is really just treating a symptom of a bigger problem: this community was not ready for matchmaking. we don't have enough players to support it. that's the real reason we're having balance and/or speed issues.
so I guess what I want to know is, when we're big enough that matchmaker can finally balance matches as intended, will the limitations be lifted? or are there any alternate options for the interim?
and the uber important stuff that I doubt there's an answer for right now: when will we be big enough? and how long will it take to get there?
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@sparklerfish
Can we come out and say what everyone is thinking but hasn't actually said?
Matchmaking, enforced removal of people from lobbies, and all of these other "balance" changes serve the needs of newer/novice players to the detriment of more experienced players.
Don't want to be rude but I did mentioned it few times :D
i.e.
I think the hiding levels thing is another example of Muse catering to greenhorns rather than veterans. Because it protects greenhorns from their low status (for a short amount of time) but also "protects" them from any advices more experienced players may give. It protects noobs from veterans, but veterans can't protect themselves from noobs APART from password games. And many experienced players say that pub matches are terrible and if you want a good game you have to go as far away as you can from pubs. And it's true. Muse doesn't protect its' veterans and veterans will be lost one after another.
Rest of your post - I completely agree. Personally I play like 30% of the time I used to play in 1.3.7 and mostly with custom lobbies or at least crew of friends.
@shaelyn
if I actually used the matchmaker, solo'd it, I'd probably still hate it.
(...)
this community was not ready for matchmaking. we don't have enough players to support it. that's the real reason we're having balance and/or speed issues.
Pretty much this. Agreed. I actually always thought that lobbies are fine system, but just we don't have enough players for it to work comfortably well.
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however, installing that limitation is really just treating a symptom of a bigger problem: this community was not ready for matchmaking. we don't have enough players to support it. that's the real reason we're having balance and/or speed issues.
^So much this.
While I can see Caprontos' point that matchmaker might make more newer players stick around so eventually we'll get a bigger community of experienced players, I don't think that is very realistic. It takes a certain type of personality to gain so much satisfaction from a game like this that requires so much teamwork that they keep coming back for more again and again. Some groups of players get what this game is all about and fall in love with it. The fact of the matter is that most people who pick this game up will do so while it's on steam sale and will play it for a while and probably have fun with it for a while and then they will put it down and never pick it up again.
Everyone has a different experience, but my experience with Guns of Icarus Online since v1.3.8 was deployed has not been of the quality that it was in previous versions. I used to play this game often, and for hours at a time. I had several real life friends who were also into the game and between them we could pull together two or three or even a full four people to hop on a boat. Post patch we still played and put up with matchmaker's shenanigans for a while.
The feeling of loss was palpable. We had so many things taken from us. Some great things were given to us too, such as the lovely suggested loadout feature. However, no longer was it an easy task to do the things we commonly did. Sure, there were workarounds to achieve similar results, but it seemed so silly to have to move to a spectate slot in order to change teams, and captains could not swap teams with another captain to balance the teams better(at least this was changed back). Matchmaker would now decide everything for us, and should achieve balance, but we all know that's not the case, only now it's much harder for the people to take the matter into their own hands and solve the problem themselves by rearranging in the lobby.
The old lobbies had a way of balancing themselves out just fine by letting the players sort themselves out and start the match when they were ready. The lobby timer in the matchmaker made games required us to leave games several times right before the match began because not every boat was really ready. We don't want to be forced to start a game with an unprepared ally ship, or even an unprepared enemy ship. All of my friends long for the days of the good ole lobby browser. It was much easier to find a game with fun people to play with in it, and there was zero frustration involved. We have yet to let matchmaker determine our fate and been as satisfied with the results as the results we were able to achieve on our own with the lobby list.
Now once we finally find a good game, we only get a maximum of three rounds in, that's not even enough matches to go through the list of junker fits we run, let alone delve into some of the other ships. After the hassle of forming up and finding a quality match we are forced to go through the process again, very frustrating, and usually a night-ender.
We have been told that custom games are the solution to our problems. The only problem with this is that you must already have half of the lobby full before you can open it to matchmaker to fill. Being a group of usually one boat maximum, this limits us to using the matchmaking system most of the time.
We are on our mumble server nightly. At least every other night I make the attempt to roust up enough folks to perhaps begin a game of blimps. As of late I cannot get any takers because the fun part of the experience is being negated by the parts that are frustrating. Negative experiences weigh much more than positive experiences in most peoples' minds. We tend to remember negative things much more vividly and for a longer amount of time. Unfortunately, too many negative experiences have compounded in our recent encounters with this game and it has caused the people I know to lose interest. This saddens me because I really like playing this game and I sincerely hope that the next time I can convince people to play it with me a lot of the kinks will be worked out of the system and we will have a positive experience.
In the meantime, the non-blimp playing portion of the [HASH] clan community would like to thank Muse for their implementation of a matchmaking system because it has allowed us to accomplish a great deal in the last month in our other video game endeavors.
I wish I could just make short posts.. :P
I feel you there :P
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I'm not sure why but it seems to me that the devs have fetishised matchmaking to the point where it has become more important to them than actual content, (many members of the community strongly advised that they don't attempt it when it was merely a notion before it even got to the drawing board) its like they believe that all people want in a game is the perfect matchmaker and that having one will increase player retention - I'm not saying it won't increase player retention but I truly believe that if they were to do some simple things like, make more maps (regurgitating old ones doesn't count) or fix some of the long standing bugs such as inconsistencies with the spotting mechanic, it would work out a lot better for them.
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Geo I would argue that some players have fetishised the match list to the same degree.
As the person who went by hand through all the reports of newbie on my ship, the feedback of of why are these games unbalanced, why do I have to have a novice on my ship, why can people join second pilot, why does the lobby sometimes lag and have issues.
There are an amazing number of problems that were in the match list that have been simply forgotten.
The match list took 0 time away from making new maps, ships, and guns. The engineering time for matchmaker was from our database engineer and UI engineer.
The people who make those things were making them and are currently making them. The art team has built roughly 16 new ships at my last count and they're in Co-Op mode. The reason there have been less content patches is because that work is going into building an entirely new game's worth of assets, game modes, and content.
So, here's my greatest issue. The idea that old lobbies were balanced is simply not true, even with scramble the number of times teams would get completely trounced was very often.
You may not have experienced it, but that's because you guys have friends and are the pros.
It's a PvP game, there will always being players losing, but our goal is to make fair and interesting matches for everyone or as close to it as possible.
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So let's have matchmaking for novices, ban them out of high-level lobbies, and let them not get stomped and feel the joy of "omg anyone can win even if we suck!"
If all that matters is that novices don't get stomped, focus on that, rather than trying to bring the rest of us down. Give the rest of us our old game back.
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It's not just novices getting stomped.
We didn't just take feedback from novices when we built the system, hell most of the system was developed with feedback from players with over 1,000 games. The people that came into the dev app and gave us feedback, almost every single one of them vets.
I feel like we made our side on this pretty clear. I've talked numbers, feedback, I've talked changes, improvements, faults, fixes, and everything brought up.
Do I think you're going to convince me over a forum? No. Do I think I'm going to convince you over a forum? No.
I've written this next section about 8 times and honestly I can't think of a right way to write it. I apologize for that.
I am not going to rewrite arguments about matchmaking on the forums.
This isn't a place where anything gets solved. This isn't a place of ideas and excitement. This isn't a place of solution and critical thinking.
I've laid out why the system is better than the old one.
Give me a reason why the old one is better, other than "players get to choose which round they're in" because my answer is 100's of emails on where players made the wrong choice and severely pissed off everyone, from vets, to newbs, and casuals to competitive. More than that, I have quite a few personal stories about how the old match system gave me or some other ship a terrible or ineffective crew.
Tell me use cases you can no longer do with the new system compared to the old system and how they impacted your gameplay.
Tell me how you would solve the problems that came up every single day and match with the old system.
Send this to keyvias@musegames.com and I'll read over it, I'll consider it, and I'll answer it.
Post it here and I won't see it.
I'm not going to check this thread anymore. I apologize to the people that brought in great ideas, but please email them to me so I can keep finding ways to put them into the system (allow ship scramble in crew form is currently on our work board. Thanks for the awesome idea!)
If you're interested in giving feedback with the goal of improving the overall matches, you know where to send it.
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Welp, let's just delete the whole feedback and suggestions subforum because apparently this isn't a place where ideas get shared.
I e-mailed my feedback and had it shot down. I came into the dev app for testing and shared my feedback and had it shot down. I suppose I should just give up, then.
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The new matchmaker still doesn't create balanced lobbies so I'm not entirely sure what the point of you reminding me that the old lobbies didn't either is. Sure - we still don't have balanced lobbies, but now the lobbies are more restrictive and less enjoyable.
I was a vet, I did go into devapp, I did give you feedback, and yes I even sent you emails to supplement posts I made on the devapp board, (looking on the devapp board the broad majority of vets feedback was AGAINST matchmaking and their guidance sent in desperation to reduce the damage caused by your stubborn decision to implement matchmaking) you didn't give a shit then and clearly you don't now, fine.
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I was a vet, I did go into devapp, I did give you feedback, you didn't give a shit then and clearly you still don't.
I find it interesting that Keyvias has made it sound like the majority of the feedback is in support of limiting rematches, removing player control, and submitting ourselves fully to the almighty infallible Matchmaker (PRAISE BE UNTO HIM), whereas looking at the forums doesn't give me that impression at all. Perhaps the people who post on the forums are all just idiots who don't understand the game and gain sick pleasure from causing other people to not have fun.
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"Our database engineer and UI engineer"
Anyone know who these devs are? Wonder if sending an email to them might actually cause Muse to notice something rather than directing it to the brick wall of Keyvias.
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-sigh- this probably isn't going to change anything, and it's probably just going to feed more flames instead of cool them down, but I got it all typed up and everything...so oh well.
I think I half failed in my point.
you guys caught the point that we weren’t ready for matchmaking. and we aren’t.
but I’m largely okay with matchmaking. there’s band-aids all over it, because we’re not ready for it, and I don’t like it. I like problems to be solved - completely. there’s not a way to do that with matchmaking right now, and the changes are limiting flexibility that I’d rather see in place.
but I don’t think match list is necessarily the answer either. it’s more flexible, but I am seeing that lobbies fill quicker (unless I’m off-peak or a part of a large team), and a lot of the flexibility I was screaming to have back initially…is back. I can work with this, and at the end of the day, I think I’d rather work with the system we will have in the future and fix it as much as possible so that when we are ready for matchmaking, we’re already there, then go back and forth.
the thing is, if these “fixes” to compensate for the lack of player base are temporary, I’m okay with working around what I need to. I still have a great time in this game. it’s not completely broke or anything. I’d rather have what flexibility is still gone at this point, but it’s not mandatory for my experience. that’s why I’m largely focused on fixing matchmaking with the larger, more glaring issues that will hinder long-term, like the crew form thing.
if match list were reinstated, I wouldn’t change what I do or how I play.
we weren’t ready for matchmaking. that’s fundamental to point out. you guys are trying to address that issue using the 3-match limit, and the 3-match limit is an aggravation, but in the grand scheme of things, not game-breaking (not to me anyway, I won’t speak for all of you), and it’s not the core issue (but you guys have caught on to that). anyway…we can work with what we got or work with what we had. neither option is a fantastic option.
so… -shrug- six of one, half a dozen of the other? that’s my point. I don’t see one option as being better or worse than the other. it’s just different.
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Anyways back on the topic of limiting rematches..
Any thoughts on this idea for a compromise?
How possible is it to change the rematch system to something more like...
Well first I assume currently its simple majority.. if 51+% of the people in a lobby want the rematch the game rematches right? maybe..
If that's the case.. what if for every rematch after the third the % of votes needed goes up so.. If a lobby is really good it will last longer by virtue that people are voting for it to rematch.. but it will still eventually end.. Even if its simply just 10% per rematch.. that would be up to 7 rematches.. Before you need everyone to vote yes to keep it going.. 50% for match 1 and rematch 2-3.. 60% for rematch 4.. 70% for rematch 5.. 80% for rematch 6.. 90% for rematch 7..and 100% for every rematch after 8..
Lobbies will probably still end after 3 in general.. or not much beyond.. If the mass leaves I see after many matches and rematches is an indicator of how many voted..
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This isn't a place where anything gets solved. This isn't a place of ideas and excitement. This isn't a place of solution and critical thinking.
Wow, apparently my ideas about what an open forum should be are completely wrong. A forum is defined as "a place or opportunity for discussing a subject". Apparently we are free to discuss amongst ourselves, but it makes no difference at all in the end. What is the point then?
I have only posted a handful of times and each time it was a well thought out post with a cohesive argument that took me a considerable amount of time to type up and prepare. The only reason I took this time out of my life to convey my concerns and share my experiences is because I like this game and I want it to thrive. I was under the impression that MUSE cared and wanted to know, but it is evident to me now that this is not the case.
A forum allows you to answer questions in a manner that the entire community can benefit from because the knowledge is shared. It is also less work on MUSE staff. You can answer a question once rather than have to answer the same thing 30 times in individual e-mails.
I still hope that this game improves and next time I log in I might have a fun experience, but after this I am done wasting my time posting on a forum that is not a place where anything gets solved, isn't a place of ideas and excitement, and isn't a place of solution and critical thinking. I guess I will just turn a blind eye and either I will like the end product or I won't. I can take a hint, my input does not matter so I will stop wasting my time and keep my ideas to myself.
Good Luck
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Okay, let me be the devil's advocate for a minute (no offence Keyvias ;) ).
Actually he told this once either in a mail or on fireside chat that forum, because it's public, make people more emotional and more, say, one-directional about their thought and ideas and that's why it's not the best way to discuss some important matters on players-Devs line. For that we have personal 1 to 1 mails which are also just better for the Devs because they can be forwarded. Keyvias can read a mail and go "Oh, this is a bug, sending it to engineers. Oh, this is a graphical idea, sending it to graphics..." etc. I think Keyvias may have been a little harsh (well, it's understandable I'd say) but 'I think' he meant that forum is too emotional and too public place to really solve the problems between players and Devs.
But! What remained untold was that forum is great player to player thinking tank. And that's basically what I do: when I have an idea I write about it on the forum and if it gets positive responses I send it to the Devs. If not, I just forget about it and move along.
Keyvias brought up actually a good point.
So, here's my greatest issue. The idea that old lobbies were balanced is simply not true, even with scramble the number of times teams would get completely trounced was very often.
You may not have experienced it, but that's because you guys have friends and are the pros.
I'd say that solid majority of people on this forum has over 1 000 matches played so regardless the level we pretty much know what is going on in the game. I've heard voices of less experienced people that 1.3.7 was better but we can't be sure whether they are representative for such group. Please, if someone who feels that belongs rather to noobs than to pros (no offence) let us hear your opinion.
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Last time I you hear my opinion, I heard I'm a hater, I exaggerate (well, partially this IS true, but I feel there's a reason) or that I know nothing about this game (yeah, Imagine, ya basterd, I'm talkin' 'bout ya) and thus I should shut my mouth.
So I'll keep my mouth shut.
I'll only say, that 3 matches limit before rematching is absolutely a stupid idea from players perspective. The crews that ain't enjoy game tend to leave, so rematching becomes a bit pointless, and those who enjoy the game and have time to have fun would rather stay in lobby with same people, same opponents, etc.
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we can return this conversation to the 3-match limit if you’d like, Caprontos, but the thing is, the devs implemented to compensate for the fact that we don’t have the player base to support the MM. so…we need an alternate way to support MM if we’re going to get rid of the match limit.
and I’m going to point this out too: returning to match list is another band-aid - just as much of one as hiding the levels and adding this limit.
matchmaking is where GoIO’s heading. I do see the day when we have the player base to support it and it works as intended. but we’re not there. the match list limitation is a temporary fix. hiding the levels is a temporary fix. returning to match list is a temporary fix. it’s all the same. bring back the match list may serve the player base better right now, but since it’s a temporary change, and a BIG temporary change at this point, I…would actually rather see the small changes like the match limit.
if you just take the match limit for what it is, yeah, it's a stupid idea. if you bring matchmaking back into the conversation, it's a compromise.
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ARGH AGAIN LOBBY JUST BALANCED ITSELF AND THEN... 1 rematch remaining.
This is the worst thing. I joined with two rematches remaining, played a sort of balanced game, then a couple people joined and rearranged and the lobby was beautifully balanced. Would totally love to keep it going... but... AGKFFHJDSIKFJDSAGKJDFGHKJADSEFRD why the HELL!!!!!!!!!!
I've made my arguments already but I wanted to express my frustration YET AGAIN that we have to be forcibly removed from balanced lobbies in order to preserve "balance".
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This was the answer to my suggestion from a feedback email on my above suggestion..
That idea definitely has a lot of merit and would solve I think one of the major issues I had with our old rematch system (players not voting and constantly looping matches.)
Let me talk to our database manager and see if we have any record of what players voting looked like so we can scale it effectively. I worry about a 50% start vote means very few matches would ever be rematched.
Thanks so much for this awesome idea. I'll check it out and see if we can make it workable, we may even be able to bring unlimited rematch if people 75% or so constantly vote for rematch.
So maybe permanent "good" lobbies can be a thing.. and more generously then I figured possibly... While still limiting lesser lobbies that people don't care enough to vote for..
But we'll see I guess..
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...Can we just get an option that would, by a vote, transition a matchmade lobby into a custom lobby, and also get an implemented match list for said custom lobbies? This would totally clear up a few frustrating issues. Also, matchmaking should restructure a crew around the player with the highest number of matches played, but to a certain extent, so that experience is sort-of factored in by cramming it sideways into the equation.