Why does everyone hate Gunners?

[Devinstater]

Everytime I get match made the captain tries to force an engineer loadout onto me and then I deal with 5 minutes of theory crafting as to why gunner is useless.

The ship cannot function properly without a captain or an enigneer, is it too much to ask to do the same with the most fun role of GOIO, shooting?

[Omniraptor]

This is one of the main religious schisms of GOI, there are a few epic-sized threads about it. Most people agree you need a gunner on really difficult guns like lumberjack, and don't need one on really simple guns like gatling. It all depends on ship and gun loadout.

[SaintR.L.]

This is one of the main religious schisms of GOI, there are a few epic-sized threads about it. Most people agree you need a gunner on really difficult guns like lumberjack, and don't need one on really simple guns like gatling. It all depends on ship and gun loadout.

Even to that you'll find people who argue that one single ammo type and a buff hammer is all you need for virtually every single gun in the game.

My opinion is, if it's not competitive you are free to do however you like. Cooperation is important though and the captain/pilot is the leader. Following orders is important. You could always go to a different ship if you do not wish to do as your captain tells you. Me personally, I will tell them my opinion and what I would do if I feel that what they're telling me to do is bad but I will follow orders nevertheless. The captain is the one who makes the final decisions on the ship.

[sparklerfish]

The ship cannot function properly without a captain or an enigneer

A ship can't function without at least TWO engineers.

is it too much to ask to do the same with the most fun role of GOIO, shooting?

...did you know that engineers can also shoot guns?  And in fact, generally can shoot MORE, because they can keep their guns repaired effectively and not on fire without relying on an engineer to extinguish it for you?

A gunner doesn't necessarily shoot more.  A gunner just is less flexible in terms of being able to repair.  Extra ammo types aren't really that important.  The vast majority of guns have one single ideal ammo type (or at least ideal for the build and circumstance).

I don't know who originally said it, but there's a quote: "Gunner is a binary class, 1 or 0," meaning that a ship works effectively with either 1 or 0 gunners.  Having an engineer loadout doesn't change your role at all -- you're still there to shoot the dickens out of the enemies and out-damage them.

Some guns, like lumberjack, heavy flak, and mine launcher, really do benefit from having three ammo types to choose from.  Hwacha and hades also to some extent, but it depends on the map, build, and pilot -- sometimes just one extra ammo as an engi will suffice.

Not being gunner CLASS doesn't mean you are on guns any less.  It just means your loadout is more flexible and you're more independent and don't have to rely on an engi to keep your guns chem sprayed.  It also potentially frees you up to have a buff hammer along with pipe wrench and extinguisher/chem so you can buff your own gun and deal additional damage.

[HamsterIV]

There are huge discussions over the usefulness of gunners, however I would like to address the hatred of gunners (as stated in the thread topic). New players default to gunner so when one joins your ship they will probably not know what to do or even how the weapons work. I have had the privilege of flying with some mighty fine gunners who pull off match making plays, but many times the gunners that are assigned to my crew are paste eating simpletons. I have to either spoon feed easy shots to them or watch in disgust as they dump entire magazines into empty sky. Sometimes they just run around getting in the engineer's way and I can't tell an engineer to take over a gun because we are taking too much fire.

So when your captain is giving you grief for being a gunner, keep in mind that it is very easy for a novice gunner to mess up an otherwise solid ship.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Because Powder Monkeys...

[GeoRmr]

All you have to do is change ship or leave the lobby - don't let them con you into running round in circles hitting the same components in the same patten with chem-spray over and over - its boring as shit! They tell you lies like "engineers shoot the guns also/the engineers shoot the guns even more/engineers are more useful." I'm friends with many veteran engineers and ultimately they all tell me - "Engineering is boring I want to shoot more" to which I reply - "I know, I'm sorry for you, but I knew this all along."

Get yourself on a good ship with a good pilot who knows how to use a gunner, The only 2 ships where you're not welcome are the metamidion and metajunker "hades art art, gat mortar/carro banshee\flamer" (the two most god-damn boring in the game, its not like you're missing much) every other ship with any combination of guns will perform better with your presence over that of a third engineer. If they try to tell you otherwise, remember the pilot doesn't know what they're doing and you should probably leave (don't listen to their lies).

As a bonus while you practice gunning you'll learn something these engineers are oblivious to and many will never learn - they're too busy looking at the hull/engines/balloon, while you can see what's actually happening throughout the game concentrating on the guns and looking at the enemies - you'll learn the maps so well that you can orient yourself instantly and you can see the mistakes and successes of the pilots better than they can themselves. In-turn, you'll become not only a gunner but also a pilot of quality.

Edit: Don't forget, they only hate because they're jealous of you having fun shooting the guns.

[Replaceable]

Beautiful Geo. Beautiful.
Take my salutes.

[Richard LeMoon]

I generally don't like being a gunner because I don't like the feeling of the ship falling apart behind me and all I can really do is shoot.

Then you get the cases of the pmonkeys who try to tell me what I should be fixing when. "You are engineer. You fix things. I am a gunner. I don't fix things. Stop shooting and repair the balloon (3/4 full)."

[Sammy B. T.]

As a long time member of the all engineer master race cult I will say generally I try and make sure players who wanted to be gunners that I have play as engineer get to be the roles that predominantly shoot. Bottom deck junker, top right pyra. I definitely try to avoid having someone who wants to gun be solely a hull engineer.

The often quoted made up statistic is that at the end of the day Engineers can do 90% of what a gunner can do, while a gunner can do 50% of what an engineer can do. There a times where that limitation really shines in favor of the gunner but those are generally more advanced ships and roles. However that only comes into play with really specific builds and really skilled gunners. If I don't know you, have no read on your skill, I am not going to specialize my ship around you.

Ever flown a lumberfish with a bad gunner who can't shoot the lumberjack? Its truly unfun.

[Dutch Vanya]

As a long time member of the all engineer master race cult I will say generally I try and make sure players who wanted to be gunners that I have play as engineer get to be the roles that predominantly shoot. Bottom deck junker, top right pyra. I definitely try to avoid having someone who wants to gun be solely a hull engineer.

The often quoted made up statistic is that at the end of the day Engineers can do 90% of what a gunner can do, while a gunner can do 50% of what an engineer can do. There a times where that limitation really shines in favor of the gunner but those are generally more advanced ships and roles. However that only comes into play with really specific builds and really skilled gunners. If I don't know you, have no read on your skill, I am not going to specialize my ship around you.

Ever flown a lumberfish with a bad gunner who can't shoot the lumberjack? Its truly unfun.

Meticulous engineering is truly unfun too.

[Ayetach]

In regards to your question Devinstater I think it depends on the strategy of the captain.

For instance if I was using a metamidian I would tend to lean towards 3 engineers since one additional ammo type (from the standard ones on every gun) is necessary to make striking attacks with an aggressive ship build like that - having the additional engineer to buff the gattling gun is also a nice plus. However if I go with builds that include mine launchers, lumberjacks, even Hwachas then for those instances I would tend to bring along a gunner so that the player can better utilize the variety of ammo types available for various situations (Hwacha with heavy clip is great for longer distance precision shots while using up).

So all in all its really based on the tactics and necessity for a crew member to utilize the extra ammo slots for their role in shooting.

[sparklerfish]

Yep, chem spraying is boring.  Nobody should do it and we should all be gunners so we have an excuse to not fix or extinguish anything.

TBH, I feel like having an excuse to not fix anything is the reason a lot of newer players want to be gunners, rather than having a good reason for the ammo types they are carrying.  Yep, it's nice and fun to have shooting as your only responsibility.  It's my favorite role.  But if the build my captain has chosen doesn't require a gunner, I'm not going to argue it because I want a bullet symbol next to my name instead of a wrench.

If you have a gun that is your responsibility to shoot, your role does not change if your class does, merely what you are carrying.  If you're a gungineer, you're not running around chem cycling.  You're shooting.  Being an engineer doesn't mean you are the main engineer.

If you're dead-set on gunning, find a ship that needs a gunner.  Or ask your captain!  "Can I have a mine launcher?" or "Can I have a heavy flak?" are questions I ask a lot of captains I know.

[Indreams]

On the contrary to the Gunner is bad theme, I like to have a gunner on the ship.

I've had too many games with three engineers and no one shooting.
I've yelled these few too many times: SHOT SOMETHING! STOP BUFFING THE BALLOON! THAT SQUID IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF OUR HWACHA!

So, in a pub match, I want a gunner because the gunner is shooting something most of the time. Of course, a coordinated group of three engineers are probably the best crew set. Heck, I've seen four-engineer crew do well.

[sparklerfish]

This is why I don't let people under level, say, 20, have a buffkit on my ships.  They get obsessed with their buffing 'chieves and you end up with nobody shooting.