It's The Clawwwwwww!

[obliviondoll]

I'm usually piloting a Junker or Galleon.

Junker already has excellent turning, and a mostly long-range Galleon can usually get away without the need for high turn speed.

As such, I find that not taking the claw is less of a liability on my preferred ships.

I can't confidently say that it isn't a great tool, or even one of the best, but I don't feel gimped by my decision to usually run other tools in its place.

[Kamoba]

I love the claw I really do, but it definitely needs one of the two changes applied, right now with better than poor engineer a Pyramidion can keep arcs on a kerosquid effectively, but I'd imagine more damage would be better fitting..

[Audere]

Alright. I'm a squid pilot. And this has been a rather large source of frustration for me.

On a squid, you are controlling your own position far more an any other ship. For example, if I am circling a Pyramidion.
In this case, because I am taking a much wider circle around the Pyra than he is turning to follow me, I receive negligible advantage from the Pheonix Claw while he gets enough turning speed from it to
follow me exactly. The gun arcs on the Pyramidion are fairly wide, so in all likelyhood I am dead in a few seconds.

This is a huge disadvantage to more maneuverable ships, especially the Squid, which is a ship that definitely needs some more love.
This is why I think that the Phoenix Claw needs a nerf: you shouldn't be able to use that thing to indefinitely keep up with a squid. Helm tools should mitigate ship weaknesses, not eliminate them entirely.

[Dementio]

Instead of circling a Pyramidion with a Squid, you could try to use superior vertical mobility or try to just fly past it and use your back gun on it or just turn your front gun back in arc much quicker than the Pyramidion could ever hope to.

[Omniraptor]

Standard operating procedure when fighting pyras is to use superior vertical mobility. This is why pyras with carronades are very scary.

Pyras are also very vulnerable to tar because if they're standing still trying to get an angle on you and suddenly they're inside a nasty cloud, it will take them a while to get out of it without using vertical evasion.

[Kestril]

Yeah, the claw has been a must-take-no-brainer for captains ever since I can remember, before the mobula. It's to the point where I think that the game would be better off without it. It's been high time to have it fixed. In fact, I think the claw is one of the main reasons we don't see many squids around.

Muse, you gotta follow the clear use and distinct effect philosophy of your design doctrine. Make the claw whirl the ship around even faster at the cost of outright shredding engines or armor. Make it "lock in" the effect for X amount of seconds once activated like hydro or chute. Make it very noticeable and able to save the day if used right, but very punishing if used wrong. Think of it like the "handbreak" turn for airships.

 Heck, go for broke and make TWO turn-y items: a claw ( for turning clockwise) and a talon ( for turning counterclockwise). So the ship will turn SUPER FAST, but only in that item's direction, and only for a limited amount of time which is "locked in" a la vent and helium. If a pilot wants both directions of horizontal turning mobility, they WILL have to sacrifice the item slot for it.

On that thought, I'd lock in the effects of kerosene for X seconds after deactivation as well to distinguish it more from moonshine. It would have less risk, but require more foresight and timing on the part of the pilot.

[Arturo Sanchez]

on the top of my head one way to nerf the claw is to increase the time it takes to change a direction.

So when you turn left you are commited to that turn as turning right forces you to decelerate your left turn before you can turn right. I know this already exists in the game but just make it harsher. To the level of making it feel as if ur turning with no claw at all.

that way the counter for the claw is to kero/moon backwards when you were circling with kero b4 forwards. A gambit move as it puts you in directly sites of the ship for a few crucial moments but if it works.

You gain a temporary respite from the turning war. As you get about 8 seconds or so of enemy guns being out of arc.

[Audere]

Instead of circling a Pyramidion with a Squid, you could try to use superior vertical mobility or try to just fly past it and use your back gun on it or just turn your front gun back in arc much quicker than the Pyramidion could ever hope to.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. I just think that you shouldn't have to do that when turning speed is supposed to be the Pyra's greatest weakness. That strategy should be reserved for ships with higher turning speed.

[Omniraptor]

naw, pyra's weakness is acceleration and vertical movement. If you're circling, you're not accelerating.

[Dementio]

I still wonder who first said that a Pyramidion's greatest weakness is turning speed. That counts for the Mobula and very likely for the Galleon too.
Thing is, a turning ship can't accelerate forward or backwards very well and the Pyramidion's acceleration in that isn't the greatest either, so you could use that to your advantage too. While you circle you already are at full speed, you can just turn slightly away and be out of range (Warning: Not actually tested!).

As a side note, if you could stay out of a Pyramidion's gun arcs forever, would it be really balanced? Everytime you see a Pyramidion, you would take a Squid and win with little effort.
The Squid wasn't supposed to be the easy ship here...

[Alistair MacBain]

Goio isnt supposed to have rock paper scissor balance.
You can take any ship against any other ship and win in theory. Just need to force the correct situation and then execute it correct.
There will always be ships and builds strong against a certain other build but no hard counters ...

[RearAdmiralZill]

That theory is fairly skewed in today's GOIO.

The work it takes to win in a squid vs pyra fight for example is anything but balanced, even remotely.

The idea of nerfing claw was never to simply buff a squid. It's for this reason:

Helm tools should mitigate ship weaknesses, not eliminate them entirely.

[Crafeksterty]

But helm tools also enhance their specialties.

Moonshine on pyra
Hydro on Mobula
Kyro on Squid

So really, its just ways to make the ship do what you want it to do. Problem is how they handle, not for a ship in specific cus moonshine does apply to most other ships, and so does hydro. But rather, Claw seems like the most non-special tool, most universal thing to be using, and thus it is used alot.

Because it is so universal, and not special, your always going to choose this as it doesnt really have a consequence other than taking up a slot. It is not special enough for you to want to have something else other than claw as claw makes you generally more effective. There is no incentive to not have Claw because there is more incentive to not have anything else.

Lets Up the damage of the engines coming from claw by 100%, People would still use it, but less actively. It would become special, or in my eyes with sufficient ammount of damage. Were talking about how the pheonix claw is used. No reason to not get it. What we need is a reason to not get it which currently it does not.

[Kamoba]

The claw is so powerful I am seeing gunners and engineers take it over spyglass! Apparently even the luck of turning is overpowered..

[Arturo Sanchez]

Yeah raising the damage puts its use into good habits you are only meant to be using it in bursts.