Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Spud Nick on June 30, 2014, 09:42:35 pm
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Do you think the phoenix claw is too good at what it does? Do you think it needs a nerf? More damage to engines or decreased turning speed. Discuss the claw below.
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Probably, it's chosen by nearly every pilot in nearly every match. It seems to reduce one of the major weaknesses certain ships have as well.
It's so satisfying to use though, can we just buff all the other tools instead?
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The phoenix claw is overpowered and a certain pick on almost every single ship I fly. I'd like to see its behaviour to be altered to be more intense but less forgiving - similar too moonshine. Even less angular drag but intense damage for the engines (~30-40dps). Currently I tend to overuse it quite a bit and occasionally observe myself to activate it in situations where it's not really needed.
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I think the major issue is that it's nearly penalty free. Unlike kerosene which you have activated for a long time you only ever need claw for a few seconds.
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I don't think lowering the effectiveness alone will help at all. As Queso says, right now there is no measurable penalty to using it in large amounts, even when you don't need to.
The easy thought is just more damage to engines to use it. We all agree that current phoenix claw works. The issue is that you can simply leave it on. I don't really think some big new mechanic change is required. Just up the damage done to engines so that it's usable, but not nigh indefinitely.
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While it is useful another reason for its near universal use is that it is the only turning tool. Just as everyone brings phoenix claw, near everyone brings kerosene or moonshine. It makes sense, everyone wants to move fast and move better. Adding a different tier of turning ability (more powerful and damaging turn) could help.
Also a nerf would be a death sentence to Galleons, an already critically underused ship.
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Agreed, a minor increase in damage should be ideal.
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While it is useful another reason for its near universal use is that it is the only turning tool. Just as everyone brings phoenix claw, near everyone brings kerosene or moonshine. It makes sense, everyone wants to move fast and move better. Adding a different tier of turning ability (more powerful and damaging turn) could help.
Also a nerf would be a death sentence to Galleons, an already critically underused ship.
Simply introducing another tool won't fix anything. Claw needs to change regardless.
People don't complain about Galleons because they turn slowly. They complain because more then not, their guns are smoking heaps stuck in endless rebuild loops. That however is for another thread.
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Pheonix claw is overused because its almost a necesity and as a choice isnt conflicting.
There are solutions to this. Like making pheonix claw a bit more punishing or change it completely, but pheonix claw is one of the reasons why you would want a pilot in the first place. A must have tool for a ship, so you can then put other tools in with the mix for the ship. I dont want to change it completely because it doesnt need a complete change, but maybe buff and make other tools more prefered.
My solution is a new pilot tool that is similar to pheonix claw but in the vertical direction.
Gas Meter
You Rise up or down faster when chosen. Damages the baloon per second by slight. (Helm Tool)
Similar to the pheonix claw, this one helps the ship go up and down faster in the expense of baloon health. But not as rapid as Hydro or Chute vent, nor as strong.
I believe this is a good tool to be brought in to conflict pilots into choosing gas meter or pheonix claw or both. This tool greatly helps ships with terrible vertical meneuver ments. But can also make hydro and Chute vent even stronger for ships that are good on vertical meneuverments (Mobula just may sky rocket)
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I cannot figure out why you think a new tool will do anything to solve the issue with a different tool.
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Because not everyone sees it is as terribly imbalanced but simply overused.
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Its overuse is not attributed to there not being more alternatives. It's due to the fact that using claw for long periods of time is easy to do. As such, for the low cost of one pilot slot, you can change the turning stats of a ship for effectively an entire match. Your pyra that was balanced to turn x now turns for y. It hurts every ship that relies on turning mobility as an advantage. Will changing it fix that issue entirely? Don't know. But I honestly believe that as is, Claw will continue to hurt ship balance in terms of turning.
We can agree to disagree right here if you believe adding a new tool will on its own solve the problem. Adding a balanced alternative is fine, but not a way to somehow fix something that is broken.
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My impression is that claw is used in short bursts that is how I've always seen it used., doesn't it hurt overall speed?
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It's used in short bursts when you need to turn faster than the ship normally can. Since it's such low health to use it's in effect just increasing turn speed with just the cost of a pilot tool. Nobody just sits and spins.
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Isn't there a total speed reduction as well?
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Yes, claw hurts forward speed. If you think though, ships turn fastest when stationary, so in a way that helps.
The scenario would be a pyra vs a goldfish or a squid. Both face head on and then pass each other. The goldfish/squid should win the turn fight by design. Claw breaks that design enough so that the pyra can continuously keep arcs on the enemy, while the other ship is forced to endlessly dodge. A pyra by design shouldn't be able to reliably win turn fights. You could argue that the other ship could also bring claw, but that's not a fix. That's a requirement.
Your junker only requires a short burst to literally do a 180 in seconds. The engineer doesn't have to repair your engines for that maneuver. They are still quite healthy after that. There lies the issue. You changed your guns in mere seconds for no loss. Such power shouldn't just be free.
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The price of the Claw is that you can't put another item in that slot. I run kerosine, tar, helium/drogue if I am in a fast turning ship, and claw, kerosine, tar if I am in a slow turning ship. The absence of helium or drogue is noticeable when I am in situations that could use them.
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When you don't take the tool yourself, it compounds the problem. The slower turning ship will, and match your turning. Point here being ships that have good turn speed by design should be able to not take claw and still be competitive instead of gimped.
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I wonder what the removal of the phoenix claw would do to the game.
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I would take a spyglass.
I wonder what the removal of the phoenix claw would do to the game.
I would actually consider a spyglass. Or tar. Or drogue.
And the squid would be a lot more effective I think.
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Embrace the spyglass.
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The scenario would be a pyra vs a goldfish or a squid. Both face head on and then pass each other. The goldfish/squid should win the turn fight by design. Claw breaks that design enough so that the pyra can continuously keep arcs on the enemy, while the other ship is forced to endlessly dodge. A pyra by design shouldn't be able to reliably win turn fights. You could argue that the other ship could also bring claw, but that's not a fix. That's a requirement.
The Goldie does need phoenix claw because it is already a fairly crappy turner, only slightly better than a pyra.
Goldie has a turn speed of 13.99 m/s and an acceleration of 7.99 m/s2
Pyra has a turn speed of 11.0 m/s and an acceleration of 6.25 m/s2
For perspective
Junker is 16.18 speed and 15.24 acceleration
Squid is 18.95 speed and 20 acceleration
Galleon is 8.02 speed and 5.06 acceleration
Spire is 11.99 speed and 15.02 acceleration
Mobula is 14.02 speed and 3.50 acceleration
So if a goldie is losing to a pyra in a turn fight then I would say it is his own fault for not bringing a tool to make his less turning ability less than average.
Regardless if a major part of your strategy is trying to win a turn fight you should be bringing a tool that helps turns. It should be "required"
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I cannot figure out why you think a new tool will do anything to solve the issue with a different tool.
Because we need a conflict. We have to force players into having conflicting choices. The claw is not conflicted by anything.
But i rather make the other tools better.
If we would change it completely, i suggest, Quicker turning but much more damaging. But changing pheonix claw this much does not show a timeless change.
But thats up to debate like we have now.
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Because we need a conflict. We have to force players into having conflicting choices. The claw is not conflicted by anything.
Well we shouldn't expect new tools anytime soon, but we can flesh out that idea I think.
So maybe you were thinking something like this
Rabbits Foot
Increases turn speed (example: angular drag -25% - compared to -65% on the claw)
Increases lift/descent (example: vertical drag -65%)
DPS to engines (example: 13 dps)
DPS to balloon (example 13 dps)
Without the turning power of the claw or the lift/descent force components of hydrogen/chute the numbers would need to be balanced around being more flexible but not as strong as the original components.
I personally really like the tools that can be left on for longer periods of time so I'd rather not see a simple DPS increase on the claw in order to balance it.
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Well we shouldn't expect new tools anytime soon,
Heh heh heh...
(The above is not a promise or guarantee of the release of new tools, or any content. Void where prohibited. You must be 18 years or older to apply. No purchase necessary. Only open to residents of the Milky Way Galaxy. For complete rules and regulations and for instructions on how to enter, please summon Cthulhu or other applicable demons, monsters, politicians or lawyers. Please read the EULA of iTunes in at least 3 but no more than 7 languages before electing the devil to Parliament. If on the off chance you become a demi-god or experience the paradoxes of time travel while under the effects of Guns of Icarus Online please consult a doctor. Ask your parents before going online.)
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There's actually a trust increase, Sammy.
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Increasing claw damage only helps the pyra. Other than the galleon it's the only ship where all engines can easily be repaired by one engineer.
Reducing the effects of the claw would be far more effective at nerfing the perceived claw problems.
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I wouldn't say it helps the pyra. If you need to pull a phoenix turn in a pyra you probably want two on guns and be left with one guy who might be able to deal with engines only if the armor isn't taking hits.
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The scenario would be a pyra vs a goldfish or a squid. Both face head on and then pass each other. The goldfish/squid should win the turn fight by design. Claw breaks that design enough so that the pyra can continuously keep arcs on the enemy, while the other ship is forced to endlessly dodge. A pyra by design shouldn't be able to reliably win turn fights. You could argue that the other ship could also bring claw, but that's not a fix. That's a requirement.
The Goldie does need phoenix claw because it is already a fairly crappy turner, only slightly better than a pyra.
Goldie has a turn speed of 13.99 m/s and an acceleration of 7.99 m/s2
Pyra has a turn speed of 11.0 m/s and an acceleration of 6.25 m/s2
For perspective
Junker is 16.18 speed and 15.24 acceleration
Squid is 18.95 speed and 20 acceleration
Galleon is 8.02 speed and 5.06 acceleration
Spire is 11.99 speed and 15.02 acceleration
Mobula is 14.02 speed and 3.50 acceleration
So if a goldie is losing to a pyra in a turn fight then I would say it is his own fault for not bringing a tool to make his less turning ability less than average.
Regardless if a major part of your strategy is trying to win a turn fight you should be bringing a tool that helps turns. It should be "required"
That's nearly 3 m/s faster, with faster acceleration to get there. On paper, the goldie should out-turn the pyra. Sure, that pyra could bring a tool in to help mitigate, but that tool should not just hand him that advantage for no cost in the short term, and very low in the long term. You then, as you say, require the other pilot to do the same. That is not how balanced tools work. That pyra should be able to take that tool to shore up a weakness in his ship, but not in a sustained way, especially with turning.
Increasing claw damage only helps the pyra. Other than the galleon it's the only ship where all engines can easily be repaired by one engineer.
Reducing the effects of the claw would be far more effective at nerfing the perceived claw problems.
I wouldn't mind testing both, but:
Lowering the effectiveness still leaves it spam-able, which I think it the real issue with it. In the end you still have to have it when others do, and I don't think that should be. It would also hurt the galleon more as, it doesn't turn that fast even with current claw. The easy repair of its turners helps it there if damage was increased.
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Just a note, shouldn't turn speed be in degrees or radians per second, not meters?
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Idk. Awkm made me hate numbers in Guns a long time ago. I never keep track.
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Just a random newbie suggestion here so feel free to ignore, but what if it also/instead damaged hull armor? You are turning the ship harder than it was designed to do so the body should be under a lot of stress so it does make sense. Would that help offset the bonuses you get from it?
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Another idea- maybe make it apply a repair cooldown to hull, instead of direct damage?
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Just a random newbie suggestion here so feel free to ignore, but what if it also/instead damaged hull armor? You are turning the ship harder than it was designed to do so the body should be under a lot of stress so it does make sense. Would that help offset the bonuses you get from it?
This. I've always thought claw should damage turning engines, armour, and not the main engine.
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I think the major issue is that it's nearly penalty free. Unlike kerosene which you have activated for a long time you only ever need claw for a few seconds.
I use pheonix claw almost as much as kerosine. (which I use almost non stop depending on the ship)
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I will use kerosine and phoenix claw because the other tools aren't nearly as good. No matter how much damage kerosine and phoenix claw do I will most likely not be changing out for other tools that I deem almost useless. My build for every ship except squid is phoenix claw, kerosine, hydro.
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http://youtu.be/N-Esh4W3dfI?t=32s
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While it is useful another reason for its near universal use is that it is the only turning tool. Just as everyone brings phoenix claw, near everyone brings kerosene or moonshine. It makes sense, everyone wants to move fast and move better. Adding a different tier of turning ability (more powerful and damaging turn) could help.
Hmmm, well heres a thought. If everyone wants to move faster and better and needs tools to do it then maybe...maybe...PEOPLE DON'T LIKE FLYING SKY TURDS?! ZOMG BLASPHEMY!!!
Muse created Turds of the Sky with 1.2. The majority of players want the game faster but won't speak up to get Muse to do it. Its just so stupid. But whats even more dumb is friends who hate the game in it's current form, but are too lazy to make a post on it. I've had one for months now, just sitting on it. Every time I ask him, he goes,"oh I'm still collecting my thoughts. I'll post later." Freaken facebook generation! Spend all day taking selfies and letting others know they're morons but don't have 5 mins to say,"hey Muse, game is too slow, k bye."
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While it is useful another reason for its near universal use is that it is the only turning tool. Just as everyone brings phoenix claw, near everyone brings kerosene or moonshine. It makes sense, everyone wants to move fast and move better. Adding a different tier of turning ability (more powerful and damaging turn) could help.
Hmmm, well heres a thought. If everyone wants to move faster and better and needs tools to do it then maybe...maybe...PEOPLE DON'T LIKE FLYING SKY TURDS?! ZOMG BLASPHEMY!!!
Muse created Turds of the Sky with 1.2. The majority of players want the game faster but won't speak up to get Muse to do it. Its just so stupid. But whats even more dumb is friends who hate the game in it's current form, but are too lazy to make a post on it. I've had one for months now, just sitting on it. Every time I ask him, he goes,"oh I'm still collecting my thoughts. I'll post later." Freaken facebook generation! Spend all day taking selfies and letting others know they're morons but don't have 5 mins to say,"hey Muse, game is too slow, k bye."
Yes, we're well aware what you think, Dragonmere 2.0. You continually claim that everyone thinks the game is slow, yet I've seen only a minimal, perhaps only 1-2 people who agree with you.
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Gilder, people bring those tools so they can go comparatively faster, not because they want to go fast. Increase the speed to 10x and it still would behoove people to move or turn x percent faster.
Also I completely missed the rest of this thread somehow.
Zill, yes the goldie is a better turner than the pyra, however it is not significantly better. You complain that if the goldie wants to win the turn battle it is required to bring a turn tool. However that is due because the goldie doesn't have a large comparative advantage in turning. If your strategy depends on out turning a ship and both ships have equal access to a tool that buffs turning then why is it so wrong to need to bring it?
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Game's speed is fine as it is to me.
The problem with the claw is that it enables movement, rather than sets it in place like kerosene, or hydrogen. It doesn't force you in a direction, but allows you to turn quicker, this means that with it, you can do most things faster as it sets up movement, rather than commits. Therefore, the claws going to be taken on most ships because it allows you to be better in most situations, rather than some, like the parachute.
What it needs, is have a higher damage, at something similar to kerosene, if not higher, due to the limited time the tool is used for.
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Personal opinions incoming:
What it needs is to be removed or at least have the difference of turning speed between ships bigger.
Higher damage is not going to do anything. People are going to continue use it, it will just be annoying.
What about having it be punishing the longer you have it activated? Like your horizontal and vertical accelartion decreases by X% the longer you use it. Or the longer you use the less decrease you get. Forcing pilots to either use it for a rather long period or a really short time to not get outmanouvered again after they turned.
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Do you guys think that fast and mobile ships lose there advantage when every ship has the claw?
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Do you guys think that fast and mobile ships lose there advantage when every ship has the claw?
Yes, very much so. A tiny increase in turn speed means a ship flying in a radius around it has to fly a lot faster to keep up. Any increase in turn speed requires a ship trying to circle to increase speed by the same percentage or close distance by the reverse percentage. Even for the squid it means you have to fly ridiculously tight circles around even the pyra when it has a claw. This doesn't even account for a ship that is moving linearly while turning.
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The best solution I've heard on this thread is to make the claw do damage to the armor as well as engines.
Leaving the claw on will become much less desirable when taking enemy fire and every bit of armor counts. It will make the claw less used on pyras but still used on galleons. It will also prevent someone from leaving it on indefinitely as it is now.
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I think the problem lies in that the claw is great for stopping and turning, but not good for ships on the move. Therefore, ships can use the claw to turn their guns onto another ship, but they cannot use the claw to outmaneuver other ships because it slows their forward momentum. My proposition is two-fold: Make the claw do a bit more damage to engines, but also give the evasive ships their own tool to evade gun arcs. In fact, that tool is already in existence, it's just not good enough yet.
Phoenix Claw:
17 damage/sec to engines (up from 13)
Kerosene:
13 damage/sec to engines (up from 10)
+50% angular drag (down from 300%)
This allows evasive ships to put on a speed boost without losing all their turning capability. We already have Moonshine for the ships that just want raw speed for ramming. This will give Kerosene its own unique home as a speed boost that keeps your agility and give fast ships with naturally high steering stats a way to move quickly out of gun arcs.
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1. As long as it gives angular drag turning it off or turning on kerosene for the turns, would still probably be faster.
2. The increased angular drag is actually used by a lot of my captains for ship straightening so an angular drag reduction is could be seen as a bit of a nerf to the tool, not a buff.
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1. As long as it gives angular drag turning it off or turning on kerosene for the turns, would still probably be faster.
2. The increased angular drag is actually used by a lot of my captains for ship straightening so an angular drag reduction is could be seen as a bit of a nerf to the tool, not a buff.
if you want to straighten the ship, use moonshine instead in that case.
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Using Moonshine to straighten the ships is not worth the damage honestly.
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Using Moonshine to straighten the ships is not worth the damage honestly.
It is. You only need to tap it for the shortest time possible.
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Still does more damage then tapping Kero.
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But it doesn't have anywhere near the same effect when it comes to straightening the ship.
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For the amount of time you have moonshine active to straighten your ship, the damage is almost non-existent.
In some cases pilots go for moonshine because of X and sometimes for Kerosene because of Y. You don't or you can't use moonshine for Y, but you would still like to straighten your ship somewhat easier, get it?
But this thread is not about moonshine or kerosene...
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This Post never happened
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bOzU04C-Lrg/Uqs3eCBN3DI/AAAAAAAADi4/pyl-cShmb3k/s1600/You-Didnt-See-Anything-Madagascar.gif)
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Isn't the angular drag the stat that would effect turning as opposed to longitudinal?
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Start Again haha
Angular Drag-65%
Longitudinal Drag+300%
Thrust+50%
DPS to Engines-13
Base numbers
If we increase the damage output to engines by 50% and reduce turning effectiveness by 3rd we should get
Angular Drag-43%
Longitudinal Drag+300%
Thrust+50%
DPS to Turning Engines-26
Longitundinal Drag would be effected as well not sure how much though, maybe dependent on thrust.
Point being would the nerf help?
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I think that's the worry with galleons becoming a little rough to turn with both an increase to damage and a decrease to effectiveness.
This brings me to a new point though of the fact we can then perhaps buff a galleon's turning speed slightly to compensate. Like ammo for guns, pilot tools shouldn't be required to make a ship usable in a balanced world.
Would that change stop claw being spammed? Yea. Would it also make it undesirable enough to toss it in the useless bin, maybe. It still needs to be able to be useful when compared to just buffing turning engines.
I wouldn't mind claw's effectiveness as much (in theory) if it wasn't an "always on" option. One clutch turn to save a bad situation is what tools are for.
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Phoenix Claw gives a thrust boost? It doesn't have that in the tooltip in-game.
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The nerf to the benefitt of the pheonix claw would not help, a nerf to the allready drawback to the pheonix claw Would help.
I remember the time when the damage to pheonix claw wasnt doing damage. We constantly used it.
Today, with the damage fixed, we still use it. It damages the engines, but does not force us to take care.
More damage to the pheonix claw will make the claw, LESS used, but not chosen over other tool.
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Just a random newbie suggestion here so feel free to ignore, but what if it also/instead damaged hull armor? You are turning the ship harder than it was designed to do so the body should be under a lot of stress so it does make sense. Would that help offset the bonuses you get from it?
This seems like a very reasonable solution to the debate of its use.
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Maybe it should make more damage to the engines, you can turn 180 with almost no damage at all.
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I think we should test armor damage.
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I think we should test armor damage.
Me too
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I think we should test armor damage.
Me too
Good idea.
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If you're taking hull damage to turn I would expect a much bigger turn that what is currently given by the Phoenix Claw. That could be an interesting new tool, like little steam punk rockets throwing the ship around.
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Replace all armor with super thrusting rockets. Got it :P
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I know I am in the minority here, but I personally do not think claw should be touched. I disagree with the characterization of being able to use it without consequences. As a heavy user of pilot tools, I find myself almost always on the verge of burning out my engines, having to constantly check their status in the middle of an engagement and coordinate with crew engine repair vs. firing opportunities. I think that reducing the frequency with which a pilot can use their tools would only further contribute to the slowing (and dumbing) down of the game, which at this point is undesirable.
However, I do think that there is some merit to the critique that Phoenix Claw is over-represented in the typical selection of a pilot's tools. To address this, instead of nerfing claw I would consider de-nerfing some of the other tools, particularly the balloon tools. I know many will disagree with me, but hydrogen in particular damages the balloon to such an extent (at least in my experience) that any competent pilot aware of their situation can quite easily evade any sort of a hydrogen ambush with a vertical dodge of their own, due to the loss of standard vertical mobility on the hydroing ship. If hydrogen did not cause so much damage to the balloon, this sort of evasion would be much more difficult and hydrogen would be more desirable as a tool (at least to me).
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However, I do think that there is some merit to the critique that Phoenix Claw is over-represented in the typical selection of a pilot's tools. To address this, instead of nerfing claw I would consider de-nerfing some of the other tools, particularly the balloon tools.
Agreed, I find myself that Hydro is too slow sometimes and the damage it does is barely worth it, that and Vent will always be faster thanks to gravity as well, either speed up Hydro by a long shot or reduce the damage it does to the balloon, would go a long way. Though I think both vertical movement tools need to be faster instead of doing less damage.
Also, instead of nerfing Phoenix, why not take this idea about a tool that damages armor to make even sharper turns? Would be something like the Moonshine equivalent of pheonix claw.
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Buffing balloon tools will do nothing save from make engagements longer because you're too busy breaking your own gun arcs to avoid ships with current claw. That's the problem now. Ships can use claw in its current form with 0.1% consequence. It simply doesn't make you pay enough for the enormous boon it provides, especially to ships that are meant to suffer with slower turning. Faster ships pay for it by being forced to constantly dodge instead of shooting the enemy to kill them.
Introducing new tools that do the same thing differently won't fix a tool that is already broken. People will simply use the broken tool.
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While you are probably underestimating the damage long term PC does to engines you are entirely discounting losses due to repairs. While the Pyra has the main engi who is already next to engines, ships like Junkers, Spires, Galleons, and Mobulas represent major losses in firepower when engines need repair. Personally my use of PC has made my most value crew be my top deck engineers for my Junker as they have to know when to repair my 50% engines or be ready for the kill.
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No one using claw properly (minus a few situations) leaves it on long enough to damage their engines to that degree. Pyra does, but the engie has easy access. More claw damage makes the engie stay there, neglecting hull. Junker? Yea no. You can do a 180 in like 3 seconds. Spires have their own problems, and I cant justify any argument saying a spire will suffer when its already bad. Galleons have to leave it on longer, but there is an engineer right there. They are a big reason I don't want to lessen the power of claw, instead upping the cost. Mobulas benefit more from the boosted acceleration. They turn faster then pyra's once they hit max turn speed. Mobula's are also very much a kill first, repair later ship. The pilot has to mitigate damage vs relying on his engies to just be there to fix it.
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TIL myself and Frogger don't use Claw correctly.
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Throughout this thread you and me disagree about claw, and that's quite alright. We all have our opinions. Perspectives are needed.
I'd really love to test out claw changes in the many flavors listed in this thread. I really do believe it'll solve a lot of issues with ships reliant on their mobility, while giving a better foundation from which to test buffing ship mobility stats if needed.
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I have to go back to saying that its other tools that need more love for claw to be a conflicting choice again.
But buffing Hydro or Vent May make ships like the mobula (Or just mobula) Way too strong.
I feel like, drogue chute, impact bumpers need a reasonable buff.
Hydro or Chute vent needs a slight buff. A buff that decreases a bit on the damage. Or how it works.
Maybe. But the answer lies on other tools rather than Claw.
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But buffing Hydro or Vent May make ships like the mobula (Or just mobula) Way too strong.
Honestly, I feel like that would be a welcome buff for the mobula. Outside of very specific applications on open maps (particularly Dunes), I don't think it is a terribly effective ship. It's far too easily countered by a wide variety of builds and tactics. Given the relative difficulty of repairing its balloon, a slight reduction in balloon tool damage would be a nice improvement.
I feel like, drogue chute, impact bumpers need a reasonable buff.
I think Drogue Chute is in a good place, but I agree Impact Bumpers could definitely use some love. To make them really viable, I'd consider decreasing the -60% engine output considerably. They are otherwise far outclassed by many other tools in terms of overall utility.
But the answer lies on other tools rather than Claw.
Agree 100%. My overall concern is that by reducing opportunities for tool usage, you make the pilot game less creative and less interesting overall. Instead of nerfing PC and making the game even slower, let's create more possibilities by slightly buffing other tools.
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I do believe somebody is underestimating the mobula a bit. Tactics, of course, can beat every ship.
I actually am against decreasing the damage hydrogen does. I use this very tool to destroy my balloon to go low really fast, if my balloon has enough damage, ON THE MOBULA.
Chute vent might require a bit of love, it only works so well for so many ships.
Even though creating new tools takes some time and effort for MUSE, I also agree that more possibilities could remove the phoenix claw from a few pilot loadouts.
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Pilot tools are going to see some love soon. The tar change in the next patch (and up in dev app now) is a bit of a preview of things to come.
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Make PC have a activate, then a cooldown. Let's say it works for like 3 seconds, then goes on a 15 second cooldown.
Honestly, I think all pilot tools should have a cooldown just like repairing stuff.
You get the effect, which lasts a certain amount of time, does a certain amount of damage, then goes on cooldown, and no other pilot tools can be used until that cooldown expires.
This way, ships would actually have the stats they were given for most of a match rather than having some sort of buff on most of the time. It would also make buffs much more effective and increased the need for more crew cooperation and communication.
Of course, engines wouldn't suffer near as much and the main engi on a pyri could get really bored, or just a lot less dizzy.
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So no more burning across the map, pulling long pc turns, using drouge long term to combat, or using impact bumper in a preventive fashion? Most tools in this game do not operate in small timed bursts, why do we need to drastically change the game to make it like that?
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Why do you have to use drastic amounts of piloting tools in order to pilot effectively? As it stands now, Pilots should get one less item to loadout, get the PC buff and engines should slowly take damage. What's the point of having base turning stats if every pilot worth a damn is gonna be using PC when they need to turn? PC should be able to be bound to the same keys as turning left and right as it stands now.
Furthermore, the Squid is the boat that gets hit the hardest by the ubiquity of PC. Other ships are gonna turn better, so you don't have the edge you're supposed to. And the Squid is by far the hardest ship to maintain engines on. IMHO, if you simply take PC out of the game, the Squid would instantly become a better more competitive ship.
Now does it seem right to anyone that a ship gets an indirect nerf simply because PC has to be taken to be a decent pilot?
For every upside, there has to be a downside. Tar had this problem, that Sammy knew better than most and exploited it for quite some time. PC has no downside, none, and it really can't be argued otherwise.
It skews ship balance. And if everyone is always using it, why does it need to be there at all? Just give every ship a buff in turning and get rid of it.
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It skews ship balance. And if everyone is always using it, why does it need to be there at all? Just give every ship a buff in turning and get rid of it.
Well, it does burn engines quite a bit if you leave it on, buffing all ships to turn like they do with Phoenix wouldn't exactly burn their engines for it, but you do, undeniably, have a point with that argument, I'm all for faster ship battles.
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Thats kind of like saying, "why is greased ammo used so much?" or "why do engineers like to use the mallet so much?".
Pilot tools imo SHOULD be something that is constantly being used in an engagement, and proper use of them separates the great pilots from the good ones.
If we want ships to be using "vanilla" stats 90% of the time, why don't we have engie pilots more often? Why even have the pilot role? All engie ships from now on!
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Greased ammo and mallet have their disadvantages. Claw does not.
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Greased ammo and mallet have their disadvantages. Claw does not.
Claw has a disadvantage simply taking up a slot.
I don't mean to say it isn't powerful, or perhaps even THE most powerful, but there are plenty of other viable tools to fill that slot.
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But few other tools of any class completely negates one of the intended weaknesses of a given ship.
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Greased ammo and mallet have their disadvantages. Claw does not.
Claw has a disadvantage simply taking up a slot.
I don't mean to say it isn't powerful, or perhaps even THE most powerful, but there are plenty of other viable tools to fill that slot.
Correct. Problem is as Queso says, if your enemy brings it, you're in trouble if you don't. It shouldn't be required.
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Your engineer and gunner analogy is inaccurate. If you use the wrong ammo or engineer tool at the wrong time, it can be fatal. Ever had someone hit a Squid hull with a Mallet in the middle of a battle? A hell of a lot more punishing than leaving PC on for an entire match. Having lesmok loaded when you should have greased can mean a loss of DPS that can cause you to lose an engagement. PC overuse has never meant the difference between life and death.
Try again.
I would further contend that if you SHOULD be constantly using pilot tools, then there really is no truly proper use. You can't constantly use Hydro or Chute vent, Drogue Chute, or Moonshine or Impact bumpers without severe penalties that should lead to your demise. Kerosene and Phoenix Claw can be used constantly. Kerosene has a direct competitor in Moonshine. Phoenix Claw has no direct competitor and can be constantly used.
Hitting 2 at the same time you hit A or D takes no skill. Knowing when to reverse engines to speed up your turn does. Knowing good angles and bad angles does.
This is the same umbrella as dominant meta builds. If some element of a game becomes ubiquitous, the game starts to become stale, certain builds and ships and guns and ammo become dominant and seen over and over again. Phoenix Claw is the most dominant element of this game. NO pilot worth a damn would be caught dead without it. It's not even a question. It's the only item I never change in any loadout -- gunner, engi, or pilot.
Any other slot, you have to ask and answer questions to determine what should be there. I've never not run PC as a pilot. Like ever. Even when I was running with a Spyglass, I still ran with PC. It's a no-brainer to take it, it's a no-brainer when to use it (if you're turning).
Where exactly is the skill in using PC? Feels to me it's more a crutch for those that have less skill. Oh, that junker is in my blind spot, guess I'll just PC.
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For me phoenix claw, and a speed tool are just essential to control the ship in any situation. And completely ingrained in how i do so. If i wanna make a slightly sharper turn, even outside of combat i use phoenix claw. I do think those tools seperate the average players from the people that really know how to control the ships, and the engineers that can really keep them running perfectly.
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Im sad this hasn't even gone into testing yet ;/
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Make claw so it does slightly less damage than moonshine, but enough that it is unsustainable over a long period of use without breaks.
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I'm usually piloting a Junker or Galleon.
Junker already has excellent turning, and a mostly long-range Galleon can usually get away without the need for high turn speed.
As such, I find that not taking the claw is less of a liability on my preferred ships.
I can't confidently say that it isn't a great tool, or even one of the best, but I don't feel gimped by my decision to usually run other tools in its place.
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I love the claw I really do, but it definitely needs one of the two changes applied, right now with better than poor engineer a Pyramidion can keep arcs on a kerosquid effectively, but I'd imagine more damage would be better fitting.. :)
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Alright. I'm a squid pilot. And this has been a rather large source of frustration for me.
On a squid, you are controlling your own position far more an any other ship. For example, if I am circling a Pyramidion.
In this case, because I am taking a much wider circle around the Pyra than he is turning to follow me, I receive negligible advantage from the Pheonix Claw while he gets enough turning speed from it to
follow me exactly. The gun arcs on the Pyramidion are fairly wide, so in all likelyhood I am dead in a few seconds.
This is a huge disadvantage to more maneuverable ships, especially the Squid, which is a ship that definitely needs some more love.
This is why I think that the Phoenix Claw needs a nerf: you shouldn't be able to use that thing to indefinitely keep up with a squid. Helm tools should mitigate ship weaknesses, not eliminate them entirely.
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Instead of circling a Pyramidion with a Squid, you could try to use superior vertical mobility or try to just fly past it and use your back gun on it or just turn your front gun back in arc much quicker than the Pyramidion could ever hope to.
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Standard operating procedure when fighting pyras is to use superior vertical mobility. This is why pyras with carronades are very scary.
Pyras are also very vulnerable to tar because if they're standing still trying to get an angle on you and suddenly they're inside a nasty cloud, it will take them a while to get out of it without using vertical evasion.
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Yeah, the claw has been a must-take-no-brainer for captains ever since I can remember, before the mobula. It's to the point where I think that the game would be better off without it. It's been high time to have it fixed. In fact, I think the claw is one of the main reasons we don't see many squids around.
Muse, you gotta follow the clear use and distinct effect philosophy of your design doctrine. Make the claw whirl the ship around even faster at the cost of outright shredding engines or armor. Make it "lock in" the effect for X amount of seconds once activated like hydro or chute. Make it very noticeable and able to save the day if used right, but very punishing if used wrong. Think of it like the "handbreak" turn for airships.
Heck, go for broke and make TWO turn-y items: a claw ( for turning clockwise) and a talon ( for turning counterclockwise). So the ship will turn SUPER FAST, but only in that item's direction, and only for a limited amount of time which is "locked in" a la vent and helium. If a pilot wants both directions of horizontal turning mobility, they WILL have to sacrifice the item slot for it.
On that thought, I'd lock in the effects of kerosene for X seconds after deactivation as well to distinguish it more from moonshine. It would have less risk, but require more foresight and timing on the part of the pilot.
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on the top of my head one way to nerf the claw is to increase the time it takes to change a direction.
So when you turn left you are commited to that turn as turning right forces you to decelerate your left turn before you can turn right. I know this already exists in the game but just make it harsher. To the level of making it feel as if ur turning with no claw at all.
that way the counter for the claw is to kero/moon backwards when you were circling with kero b4 forwards. A gambit move as it puts you in directly sites of the ship for a few crucial moments but if it works.
You gain a temporary respite from the turning war. As you get about 8 seconds or so of enemy guns being out of arc.
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Instead of circling a Pyramidion with a Squid, you could try to use superior vertical mobility or try to just fly past it and use your back gun on it or just turn your front gun back in arc much quicker than the Pyramidion could ever hope to.
Yeah, I'm aware of that. I just think that you shouldn't have to do that when turning speed is supposed to be the Pyra's greatest weakness. That strategy should be reserved for ships with higher turning speed.
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naw, pyra's weakness is acceleration and vertical movement. If you're circling, you're not accelerating.
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I still wonder who first said that a Pyramidion's greatest weakness is turning speed. That counts for the Mobula and very likely for the Galleon too.
Thing is, a turning ship can't accelerate forward or backwards very well and the Pyramidion's acceleration in that isn't the greatest either, so you could use that to your advantage too. While you circle you already are at full speed, you can just turn slightly away and be out of range (Warning: Not actually tested!).
As a side note, if you could stay out of a Pyramidion's gun arcs forever, would it be really balanced? Everytime you see a Pyramidion, you would take a Squid and win with little effort.
The Squid wasn't supposed to be the easy ship here...
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Goio isnt supposed to have rock paper scissor balance.
You can take any ship against any other ship and win in theory. Just need to force the correct situation and then execute it correct.
There will always be ships and builds strong against a certain other build but no hard counters ...
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That theory is fairly skewed in today's GOIO.
The work it takes to win in a squid vs pyra fight for example is anything but balanced, even remotely.
The idea of nerfing claw was never to simply buff a squid. It's for this reason:
Helm tools should mitigate ship weaknesses, not eliminate them entirely.
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But helm tools also enhance their specialties.
Moonshine on pyra
Hydro on Mobula
Kyro on Squid
So really, its just ways to make the ship do what you want it to do. Problem is how they handle, not for a ship in specific cus moonshine does apply to most other ships, and so does hydro. But rather, Claw seems like the most non-special tool, most universal thing to be using, and thus it is used alot.
Because it is so universal, and not special, your always going to choose this as it doesnt really have a consequence other than taking up a slot. It is not special enough for you to want to have something else other than claw as claw makes you generally more effective. There is no incentive to not have Claw because there is more incentive to not have anything else.
Lets Up the damage of the engines coming from claw by 100%, People would still use it, but less actively. It would become special, or in my eyes with sufficient ammount of damage. Were talking about how the pheonix claw is used. No reason to not get it. What we need is a reason to not get it which currently it does not.
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The claw is so powerful I am seeing gunners and engineers take it over spyglass! Apparently even the luck of turning is overpowered.. :)
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Yeah raising the damage puts its use into good habits you are only meant to be using it in bursts.
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Yeah raising the damage puts its use into good habits you are only meant to be using it in bursts.
This ^ :)
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Yeah raising the damage puts its use into good habits you are only meant to be using it in bursts.
So, you are saying that the phoenix claw isn't meant to be used to continuously turn the ship's guns into arc when somebody is continuously circling said ship?
I dunno.
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Yeah raising the damage puts its use into good habits you are only meant to be using it in bursts.
So, you are saying that the phoenix claw isn't meant to be used to continuously turn the ship's guns into arc when somebody is continuously circling said ship?
I dunno.
That's exactly what I'm saying, in essence.
You have a team mate. There is a reason there isn't any 1v1 maps. Getting circled by an annoying squid? Your ally can help. Not "Aw well, better turn on claw"
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So you want to either have the phoenix claw to destroy engines or turn the ships less than before? Because this would screw with not only the Pyramidion, but a whole lot of other ships.
I am sharing Crafeksterty's opinion here, we should be presented with a reason to take that tool.
Maybe if the turning speed increase of Phoenix Claw gets lowered together with the horizontal top speed of a bunch of ships, to make the phoenix claw negletable, but also make circling not too easy. (Poor Galleon)
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It'll be interesting to see what direction feels the best, either taking the kero or moonshine approach to it. To elaborate, do we make it always-on, but less turning power? Do we make it high-power, but only good for a limited burst? And im never wanting to make something useless, but im also not into requiring a tool to remain competitive at higher levels. Pilots should know what their ship can and can't do.
And now you see where my mindset is. Once claw stops making the turning speeds of ships x instead of their intended y, we can then see what ships need tweaking on the turning front, either by added acceleration or top speed. This is why I didn't like the goldfish changes that we were trying out with giving it increased turn speed. Claw made it silly.
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I keep thinking 5 Second activation on activation. Or 10 second activation.
Personaly i keep using Claw in short bursts and do no damage. The best way (again imo) to use claw is fully turning the ship instead of just slight turns. And i mean 180s or 250 degree turns.
Problem is, people tend to use it for short turns and get no punishment for it. Even i do that, like i said, very short bursts.
In anycase, 10 seconds should make pilots wish they had more to turn for when they turned for just a little. Atleast a good reason to not have it if your not using it for long periods of times?
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One thing I've always liked about this game is that every ship *can* theoretically 1v1 any other ship with enough skill. Like, a blenderfish *can* take on a metamidion (despite being countered) if it knows how to handle a metamidion (back up a lot and pray to icarus your gunner knows how to take the balloon out from the front). However if some ships simply won out against others in 1v1's (squids constantly circling you with you having no ability to turn)I would simply not play that ship honestly. In pubs it's not like the communication is impeccable with your gunner pilot ally and in competitive you're expected even more-so to be able to hold your own. Piloting a pyra already feels like piloting a fat hunk of metal. It already feels slow and clunky. If your Phoenix claw nerf and what the devs are doing to its acceleration happens, I just won't have any joy piloting the damn thing anymore.
Edit: To clarify I do understand that is too powerful to the point of being necessary for all ships, and how it does not punish enough, but I just think it should be nerfed in a different way. I also understand that nerfing the pyras turning ability does not make it automatically lose, as it can back up to keep its guns in arc, but if the pyras acceleration is nerfed it won't be able to even do that. ( Don't take my moonshine backwards trick away from me devs pls)
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Yeah raising the damage puts its use into good habits you are only meant to be using it in bursts.
So, you are saying that the phoenix claw isn't meant to be used to continuously turn the ship's guns into arc when somebody is continuously circling said ship?
I dunno.
You know there's more piloting maneuvers than just turning like a dog chasing its tail... you got hydro and kero to screw up your enemy. And in that instant use the claw to position for a counter.
Skills mate. strategy. It's like this game is based around these concepts or something.
If something doesn't work try something else. And once something works, you have to try something else anyway because the trick shouldn't work twice.
I'm seeing some very bad habits being projected in this thread. Lots of NO, everything must conform to exactly how I play to win.
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It cannot be avoided on every ship.
I don't think a Pyramidion would be able to out hydro or out kero a Squid or Goldfish, escpecially when kero/moonshine is used to move backwards, it will just be half as fast. It could possibly evade a Junker. A gat/mortar Pyra has then to break through the balloon, which means it is not going to kill anytime soon.
Moving forward to expose the engines is rarely an option.
Same for Galleons, it doesn't have many options and more often than not even phoenix claw is enough for that ship.
Spires probably have to fallback to the same phoenix claw option, especially with their glass cannon-like physique. If it manages to escape through hydro or chute, it will very likely still be outmanouvered the second the enemy gets on the same altitude, before escaping itself.
I see Hydrogen and chute vent more as a defensive, escape tool than as an offensive one. Only Gat/Mortar ships really profit from hydrogen to get an early height advantage, if used first.
Kerosene and Moonshine during combat is either range control or used to get the ship's own mass to do any damage or to use the mass to move another mass into a more favourable position.
Phoenix claw during combat enables you to keep your guns in arc against ships that are more manouverable than yours.
As the enemy ship uses hydrogen to escape, you will probably use hydrogen as well to get gun arcs back so you can continue killing.
If the enemy is too fast with kero/moonshine, you will probably use either tool to get back in range.
If the enemy uses a more manonuverable ship against yours, you use tools to compensate for the lack of manouverbility, how else do you win?
I do believe, if this wasn't the case, Squids and Junkers will have a tendency to always win against Pyramidions, Galleons and Spires in close range engagement. As it is now, less manouverable ships have a chance to fight back, some have it easier than others.