Author Topic: It's The Clawwwwwww!  (Read 58142 times)

Offline RistoH

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #60 on: July 16, 2014, 04:02:49 pm »
Maybe it should make more damage to the engines, you can turn 180 with almost no damage at all.

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #61 on: July 16, 2014, 04:05:49 pm »
I think we should test armor damage.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2014, 12:16:18 am »
I think we should test armor damage.

Me too

Offline RistoH

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2014, 04:14:10 pm »

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2014, 04:40:05 pm »
If you're taking hull damage to turn I would expect a much bigger turn that what is currently given by the Phoenix Claw. That could be an interesting new tool, like little steam punk rockets throwing the ship around.

Offline Queso

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2014, 04:42:13 pm »
Replace all armor with super thrusting rockets. Got it :P

Offline Frogger

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2014, 08:27:47 pm »
I know I am in the minority here, but I personally do not think claw should be touched. I disagree with the characterization of being able to use it without consequences. As a heavy user of pilot tools, I find myself almost always on the verge of burning out my engines, having to constantly check their status in the middle of an engagement and coordinate with crew engine repair vs. firing opportunities. I think that reducing the frequency with which a pilot can use their tools would only further contribute to the slowing (and dumbing) down of the game, which at this point is undesirable.

However, I do think that there is some merit to the critique that Phoenix Claw is over-represented in the typical selection of a pilot's tools. To address this, instead of nerfing claw I would consider de-nerfing some of the other tools, particularly the balloon tools. I know many will disagree with me, but hydrogen in particular damages the balloon to such an extent (at least in my experience) that any competent pilot aware of their situation can quite easily evade any sort of a hydrogen ambush with a vertical dodge of their own, due to the loss of standard vertical mobility on the hydroing ship. If hydrogen did not cause so much damage to the balloon, this sort of evasion would be much more difficult and hydrogen would be more desirable as a tool (at least to me).

Offline Echoez

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #67 on: July 18, 2014, 02:05:01 am »
However, I do think that there is some merit to the critique that Phoenix Claw is over-represented in the typical selection of a pilot's tools. To address this, instead of nerfing claw I would consider de-nerfing some of the other tools, particularly the balloon tools.

Agreed, I find myself that Hydro is too slow sometimes and the damage it does is barely worth it, that and Vent will always be faster thanks to gravity as well, either speed up Hydro by a long shot or reduce the damage it does to the balloon, would go a long way. Though I think both vertical movement tools need to be faster instead of doing less damage.

Also, instead of nerfing Phoenix, why not take this idea about a tool that damages armor to make even sharper turns? Would be something like the Moonshine equivalent of pheonix claw.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #68 on: July 18, 2014, 09:13:31 am »
Buffing balloon tools will do nothing save from make engagements longer because you're too busy breaking your own gun arcs to avoid ships with current claw. That's the problem now. Ships can use claw in its current form with 0.1% consequence. It simply doesn't make you pay enough for the enormous boon it provides, especially to ships that are meant to suffer with slower turning. Faster ships pay for it by being forced to constantly dodge instead of shooting the enemy to kill them.

Introducing new tools that do the same thing differently won't fix a tool that is already broken. People will simply use the broken tool.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #69 on: July 18, 2014, 10:01:45 am »
While you are probably underestimating the damage long term PC does to engines you are entirely discounting losses due to repairs. While the Pyra has the main engi who is already next to engines, ships like Junkers, Spires, Galleons, and Mobulas represent major losses in firepower when engines need repair. Personally my use of PC has made my most value crew be my top deck engineers for my Junker as they have to know when to repair my 50% engines or be ready for the kill.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #70 on: July 18, 2014, 10:25:05 am »
No one using claw properly (minus a few situations) leaves it on long enough to damage their engines to that degree. Pyra does, but the engie has easy access. More claw damage makes the engie stay there, neglecting hull. Junker? Yea no. You can do a 180 in like 3 seconds. Spires have their own problems, and I cant justify any argument saying a spire will suffer when its already bad. Galleons have to leave it on longer, but there is an engineer right there. They are a big reason I don't want to lessen the power of claw, instead upping the cost. Mobulas benefit more from the boosted acceleration. They turn faster then pyra's once they hit max turn speed. Mobula's are also very much a kill first, repair later ship. The pilot has to mitigate damage vs relying on his engies to just be there to fix it.


Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #71 on: July 18, 2014, 10:44:46 am »
TIL myself and Frogger don't use Claw correctly.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #72 on: July 18, 2014, 12:18:45 pm »
Throughout this thread you and me disagree about claw, and that's quite alright. We all have our opinions. Perspectives are needed.

I'd really love to test out claw changes in the many flavors listed in this thread. I really do believe it'll solve a lot of issues with ships reliant on their mobility, while giving a better foundation from which to test buffing ship mobility stats if needed.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #73 on: July 18, 2014, 02:55:56 pm »
I have to go back to saying that its other tools that need more love for claw to be a conflicting choice again.

But buffing Hydro or Vent May make ships like the mobula (Or just mobula) Way too strong.
I feel like, drogue chute, impact bumpers need a reasonable buff.

Hydro or Chute vent needs a slight buff. A buff that decreases a bit on the damage. Or how it works.
Maybe. But the answer lies on other tools rather than Claw.

Offline Frogger

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #74 on: July 18, 2014, 04:38:06 pm »
But buffing Hydro or Vent May make ships like the mobula (Or just mobula) Way too strong.

Honestly, I feel like that would be a welcome buff for the mobula. Outside of very specific applications on open maps (particularly Dunes), I don't think it is a terribly effective ship. It's far too easily countered by a wide variety of builds and tactics. Given the relative difficulty of repairing its balloon, a slight reduction in balloon tool damage would be a nice improvement.

I feel like, drogue chute, impact bumpers need a reasonable buff.

I think Drogue Chute is in a good place, but I agree Impact Bumpers could definitely use some love. To make them really viable, I'd consider decreasing the -60% engine output considerably. They are otherwise far outclassed by many other tools in terms of overall utility.

But the answer lies on other tools rather than Claw.

Agree 100%. My overall concern is that by reducing opportunities for tool usage, you make the pilot game less creative and less interesting overall. Instead of nerfing PC and making the game even slower, let's create more possibilities by slightly buffing other tools.