Author Topic: Spire Changes?  (Read 25514 times)

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Spire Changes?
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2014, 10:17:53 am »
Because it survives so well these days...

Also, can't health and rebuild be separately changed? Or is that only guns.

Offline vyew

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Re: Spire Changes?
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2014, 11:46:01 am »
I have read/heard varying reports that the armor rebuild time is/is not tied to the actual armor value.

Edit: Zill beat me to it

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Spire Changes?
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2014, 12:24:39 pm »
games got the best balance i have seen in a long time and i think the spire is good in that balance more hull amour would be great but its not really needed

Can we count on SAC taking it to some competitive games then?

Offline Wundsalz

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Re: Spire Changes?
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2014, 01:59:14 pm »
The spire is a hades sponge. Its tall shape combined with the front facing guns prevent the spire from dodging any long range shots without loosing gun arcs. In brawlier situations spires have got giant hull(and balloon) areas which can be attacked without getting into the spires gun arcs. Combined with slow acceleration and max speed this makes proper positioning hard. On top of that the spire is is difficult to repair, as the components are spread accross the ship.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 02:06:12 pm by Wundsalz »

Offline Dutch Vanya

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Re: Spire Changes?
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2014, 06:03:35 pm »
I'm the best at making the wrong posts in the wrong threads, but i'll just say that i still think most balance problems stem from the pyramidion being too 'perfect'

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: Spire Changes?
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2014, 06:39:58 pm »
games got the best balance i have seen in a long time and i think the spire is good in that balance more hull amour would be great but its not really needed

Can we count on SAC taking it to some competitive games then?

Did I just salute a Rydr? What is this world coming to?


But as Wund said, the Spire stops being overly effective the moment a hades is put into play both due to its large vertical size as well as its low armor.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Spire Changes?
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2014, 08:01:33 pm »
Thats why i belive a very good acceleration to the spires speed can make for dodging hades shots real easy.

And the turn speed turnt up :/

I am very scared touching the spire too much (hah) because i feel like it can quickly be too strong if we give it too much.
Also regarding the armor thing, armor and rebuild are tied for balance reasons but it can be changed.
More armor is just going to make the spire a bit too powerfull with the current set up it has now. 400 is over 50% of 650 (or 700) on the pyra. (Can someone give us accurate armor for each ship?) The junker has 800 i believe which the spire is the half of.

Increasing its lasting ability on a fight makes it too strong. You will always have to counter the spire with a disabling gun every time you see a spire if the armor is buffed.

Offline Extirminator

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Re: Spire Changes?
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2014, 05:00:31 am »

Also, can't health and rebuild be separately changed? Or is that only guns.

https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,4298.0.html

^^around the end of page 1 and some of the variables in page 2.

ALL components are dependent on the HP of the component.

Offline Dementio

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Re: Spire Changes?
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2014, 08:14:32 am »
Armor can be found here.

I believe if the armor was a bit higher the Spire could make more use of its strengh in terms of fire power. It has 4 guns that could be used continously, but it never gets the chance since the top 2 guns are ignored in favor of the instantly broken hull and the second engineer has to repair the balloon or the side engines, leaving only the gunner to handle the easily disabled front gun and the less useful side gun.
I feel like putting the hull back down and the balloon back on top would make the Spire's playstyle easier to handle for the crew. Can somebody tell me why the hull and balloon switched places at all?

The Spire always looked like a watchtower to me and thus it makes little sense to me to increases horizontal speed/acceleration for dodging, but I would like to see the increase in turning speed.

Offline Mezhu

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Re: Spire Changes?
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2014, 09:54:21 am »
armor +25% => spire legit

Offline Skrimskraw

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Re: Spire Changes?
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2014, 10:34:31 am »
come on guys...

why would you buff the spire, every ship has a hardcounter, the spire is vulnerable to hades that is fine, dont fly towards a hades then. use terrain and move around.

Spires can rule duel at dawn, canyon ambush and paritan rumble if you use clouds and cover.

I remember some time ago people wanted to buff the goldfish, now the goldfish is considered a good ship without the buffs, because pilots actually put efforts into flying it correctly.

Offline Dementio

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Re: Spire Changes?
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2014, 12:23:23 pm »
The Spire's hardcounter is everything that shoots at it. No, you don't even have to shoot at it, a squid can ram it to death from up front without being shot at.

The Spire is not made to move around, since it is as slow as it is. It's tallness makes many covers not actual covers. It also hinders it from using certain routes, because it's just too tall to fit through, limiting its sneaky-ness.

Every ship can rule any map, but that relies on teamwork between captains and their crews as well as good strategizing mid-game. If you are good at these things and win with every ship than you are good pilot in a good clan/team, it does not make the ship balanced.


What is the Spire better at than other ships? A pyramidion can have the same killing power because you don't need more than a Gatling and a Mortar. A Mobula can have even more and it as well as most other ships can dodge and tank easier than the Spire could ever hope to.
It sure can have 1 medium gun and 3 light guns pointed at the same enemy, but is it enough to even out all its negatives? I think not. I would be almost ok with it if it would just be a tini tiny bit easier to engineer...


The more I think about the Spire the more I get the feeling it is just a joke ship.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 12:25:19 pm by Dementio »

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Spire Changes?
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2014, 01:37:34 pm »
The balance im trying to imply is a ship wide function.

Upping the armor to the spire in my eyes will make it OP and at the same time less tanky in survivability.
But upping the Turning or the Acceleration can make or brake what the spire used to be.

Its not about having the spire fitting the role of a "WatchTower" or anything. Its still a ship, but the acceleration (Even with a slow speed) could be fast enough to utilise the Spires Body.
Like i mentioned, people really do miss shots at the spire when it flies side to side.

Either a much quicker turning, or a much quicker acceleration. Either way, you can still use the spires body.
This balance is not only better for the experienced players, new players or pub should be able to notice this and abuse it to a degree.


But take Skrimskraws comment a bit harder. What he says is true and there arent many spire fliers that showcase what the Spire can do.
That is why i say upping the armor can proove for an OP yett diminishing nature.

Offline Mezhu

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Re: Spire Changes?
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2014, 03:51:34 pm »
Increasing the armor won't stop the spire from being a glass cannon. It won't nerf it's survivability either, Spire doesn't rely on quick hull rebuilds to overcome the enemy like the Goldfish or to an extend the Pyra do.

Instead, giving it more armor will give crew a slightly longer time window during which they can continue shooting. It will also stop the ship from dying when being rammed by anything.

Offline Dutch Vanya

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Re: Spire Changes?
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2014, 05:04:58 pm »
The Spire's hardcounter is everything that shoots at it. No, you don't even have to shoot at it, a squid can ram it to death from up front without being shot at.

The Spire is not made to move around, since it is as slow as it is. It's tallness makes many covers not actual covers. It also hinders it from using certain routes, because it's just too tall to fit through, limiting its sneaky-ness.

Every ship can rule any map, but that relies on teamwork between captains and their crews as well as good strategizing mid-game. If you are good at these things and win with every ship than you are good pilot in a good clan/team, it does not make the ship balanced.


What is the Spire better at than other ships? A pyramidion can have the same killing power because you don't need more than a Gatling and a Mortar. A Mobula can have even more and it as well as most other ships can dodge and tank easier than the Spire could ever hope to.
It sure can have 1 medium gun and 3 light guns pointed at the same enemy, but is it enough to even out all its negatives? I think not. I would be almost ok with it if it would just be a tini tiny bit easier to engineer...


The more I think about the Spire the more I get the feeling it is just a joke ship.

Practice some more. It's not as bad as you think.