Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Dementio on June 30, 2014, 09:11:11 pm
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The Spire is the glass cannon in this game with the most firepower, but at the same time, the easiest to kill ship. It turns rather fast (even though phoenix claw seems to still be a must), but moves very slowly forward and backwards. It's vertical speed seems to be a joke considering how tall that ship is. This tall-ness makes sure that close range ship can just hammer on it without the Spire having any means of escape vertically. And it at times it even dies before it gets its own guns in arc even though the enemy is just in front of it, just a little bit too high or low.
Although IF the spire gets its guns on something, it can, technically, shredd this something in mid-air. Technically, because even when the spire gets the chance, things can go horribly wrong and in close range a simple Gat/Mortar combination seems to be enough for even a Galleon.
My question to the community is wether the Spire is balanced or not. If not then how to balance it?
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Add a crows nest as high as the balloon
Buff chute vent ram
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I have always wanted the spire to have faster acceleration so it can get to were it needs to faster.
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In all seriousness an increased in vertical speed would do it well, but make it a bit too similar to the mobula.
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A big issue with the Spire is that it's a ship that requires its guns singing to be really effective, yet you're too busy repairing it to stay alive that it never gets the chance. The idea of low armor/fast rebuild just doesn't work for it. It needs a healthy amount of armor to take some shots so the guns can keep firing. I'd say something around pyra amounts. Of course, to counteract that, it has the low bare hull amounts.
Given the design of a Spire, I really think trying to make it dodge rams vertically is not how it should be doing things. Give it the capability to horizontally dodge. This would equate to fast acceleration and turning, and to balance a low speed.
On paper, the Spire should out-do a mobula with damage. The platform is flawed however, and you never get the chance except at extreme ranges. The debatable issue with heavy gun's health and rebuild time can also play a factor here.
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Get rid of a large portion of the spire. The spire is the dream come true for any team using a hades or lumberjack as the hardest thing to line up with those guns is vertical accuracy. Its a ton of hull that does nothing but get shot at and run into things on the ground. So I would say scrunch it up a bit and remove some of the lawn dart portion of the ship.
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For a very long time ive been saying (Not so much on forums) that the spires stats are pretty crap and that all it has going for it is the guns.
The spire with 700 armor + 750 health but without the todays side gun changes was a pretty strong ship. But even then the spire couldnt survive because it couldnt outgun.
If you combine the spires previous armor and its firepower, ide say it would be a pretty OP ship.
I was against the discussion of changing the gun arcs at the time because i saw a whole lot of destructive potential. I just didnt add the balance to the armor.
So today i believe the guns aiming like they do made the Spire for a fun (More fun) ship than before. I can litterally come up with a build that would completely counter a different ship. Or a nice mix versus 2 different ships. But there are GLARING weaknesses that i cannot overcome even being a seasoned Spire Flyer.
And this is something ive said in the discussion of the spires change when it did.
.And that is the Acceleration. -Spud Nick.
Vertical Acceleration is in a good order for a spire, i would love for a minor verticality mobility but thats not the issue.
It is its Horizontal Acceleration.
The spire is a Slim figure and many times People really do miss the spire when it is going side by side. They have to resort to attacking the baloon and even that does not gurantee a hull hit.
I dont wanna act like a master or any thing but if you find some of my gameplay, i tend to turn and jump into cover as fast as possible. When i start to fly torwards my cover, the enemy shots are allready missing, problem is it is slowly starting to hit again. And when i do get into cover, i have to heavily stabilise my ship as quick as possible so i can jump out of cover.
On big maps like dunes, or water hazard, there is next to no real use for the spire. When the enemy goes sniper, the spire on those map types is locked down. Swaying from side to side, tanking sniper shots with dodging abilities helps for just a moment. An increase in acceleration should make the spire able to Tank sniper shots with constant dodging.
On a mobula and a buffed baloon, i can easily sway up and down to dodge sniper shots be it artemis/mercury/Hades/Luberjack.
The spire could use for that acceleration to better help himself. It fits because it is a very pointy ship so an accurate acceleration would allow for topnotch positioning.
Another thing is when the spire is above or Below a different ship. A good pilot with map awareness would greatly help the spire in minda gaming close range.
For example
A pyramideon is about to ram you, you go above or beneath him. The pyra either starts turning to face behind you, or goes backwards to face your front. His most effective decision is going backwards because a pyra is quicker than it is turning. So the spire has to somehow be able to beat that. With great acceleration, the spire can look at the map or the enemy ship and react accordingly. If the pyra turns for the spire after a missed ram, the spire can quickly go behind the pyra. If the pyra starts to go backwards, the spire can follow and then immidiatly after (or just go backards instantly) go backwards to use his backwards speed with your sudden backwards speed. All of a sudden you have range again. There is a third option, turn to dodge a pyra ram. You horixontaly dodge the pyra by turning and then going backwards/Forwards. This will always make the pyra Turn. You can then freely go above or under. And keep flying around him like that because you have Sudden Acceleration that the pyra has to Guess for.
Im using a Pyra as an example, but it should do with alot of things like Mid range fighting, a spire should be able to dodge hades shots just by turning and full steam ahead/Back. With kyrosine or Moonshine. Or escaping squids by suddenly moving a different direction. Etc etc.
Nothing too big of an acceleration but enough for it to people notice.
The spire is very close to Balanced, it is requiered a good crew to manage, but its true that it has huge weakneses that you cannot overcome. A buff to something that the players, Crew, pilot controls is better than to straight up give it stats that helps out the ship generally without player inputt.
TL:DR The spire can make very good use of accurate enough Acceleration
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I'm still waiting for the vertical shish-kabob tactic to become viable without the spire shattering like a falling crystalline vase hitting a hard floor most of the time.
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mmm... junker-kabob
Anyway, I would say that a big factor that makes the spire mediocre as a sniper is that it can't strafe while firing. Junker can strafe side-to-side, mobula can strafe vertically, galleon can tank and sort of strafe, etc. All these ships can get out of cover, fire a volley, get back in cover (relatively) quickly. Spire can't do this, so it must pretty much always be played super-agressively and can't afford to get into a long cover-sniping attrition fight. Sad thing is, most sniper fights are precisely that.
The only thing keeping you from getting diabled/killed is well-timed supressive fire and support from teammates.
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Chute vent sheesh-kabob!
Also silly idea: how about rotating all the engines 90 degrees to the left, so now the Spire is basically a crab in airship form, only able to move sideways? ;)
(Actually now I think about it that would be kinda interesting, a crabship!)
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Dunno whether rotating all the engines would work, because that would limit its aggressive potential, simply turn it into a defensive ship with no actual, you know, defenses and no ability to kite.
I would be interested in a tool that allowed direct lateral movement, like for example venting your balloon to the side. It's been suggested before.
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I agree with Zill on this (and if you loom back in the Dev app forums have felt this way before it went into production) Spire just needs a bit more armor so you can fire a clip off and still have time to get in a mallet hit before armor breaks.
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I agree with Zill on this (and if you loom back in the Dev app forums have felt this way before it went into production) Spire just needs a bit more armor so you can fire a clip off and still have time to get in a mallet hit before armor breaks.
I agree with this. It would also not remove it's place in the balance as the glass cannon.
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games got the best balance i have seen in a long time and i think the spire is good in that balance more hull amour would be great but its not really needed
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More hull armor = More Rebuild = When armor is down, more prone to die (Due to large hull, easy to hit at close, takes up more attention)
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Because it survives so well these days...
Also, can't health and rebuild be separately changed? Or is that only guns.
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I have read/heard varying reports that the armor rebuild time is/is not tied to the actual armor value.
Edit: Zill beat me to it
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games got the best balance i have seen in a long time and i think the spire is good in that balance more hull amour would be great but its not really needed
Can we count on SAC taking it to some competitive games then?
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The spire is a hades sponge. Its tall shape combined with the front facing guns prevent the spire from dodging any long range shots without loosing gun arcs. In brawlier situations spires have got giant hull(and balloon) areas which can be attacked without getting into the spires gun arcs. Combined with slow acceleration and max speed this makes proper positioning hard. On top of that the spire is is difficult to repair, as the components are spread accross the ship.
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I'm the best at making the wrong posts in the wrong threads, but i'll just say that i still think most balance problems stem from the pyramidion being too 'perfect'
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games got the best balance i have seen in a long time and i think the spire is good in that balance more hull amour would be great but its not really needed
Can we count on SAC taking it to some competitive games then?
Did I just salute a Rydr? What is this world coming to?
But as Wund said, the Spire stops being overly effective the moment a hades is put into play both due to its large vertical size as well as its low armor.
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Thats why i belive a very good acceleration to the spires speed can make for dodging hades shots real easy.
And the turn speed turnt up :/
I am very scared touching the spire too much (hah) because i feel like it can quickly be too strong if we give it too much.
Also regarding the armor thing, armor and rebuild are tied for balance reasons but it can be changed.
More armor is just going to make the spire a bit too powerfull with the current set up it has now. 400 is over 50% of 650 (or 700) on the pyra. (Can someone give us accurate armor for each ship?) The junker has 800 i believe which the spire is the half of.
Increasing its lasting ability on a fight makes it too strong. You will always have to counter the spire with a disabling gun every time you see a spire if the armor is buffed.
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Also, can't health and rebuild be separately changed? Or is that only guns.
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,4298.0.html
^^around the end of page 1 and some of the variables in page 2.
ALL components are dependent on the HP of the component.
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Armor can be found here (http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/ships-3/).
I believe if the armor was a bit higher the Spire could make more use of its strengh in terms of fire power. It has 4 guns that could be used continously, but it never gets the chance since the top 2 guns are ignored in favor of the instantly broken hull and the second engineer has to repair the balloon or the side engines, leaving only the gunner to handle the easily disabled front gun and the less useful side gun.
I feel like putting the hull back down and the balloon back on top would make the Spire's playstyle easier to handle for the crew. Can somebody tell me why the hull and balloon switched places at all?
The Spire always looked like a watchtower to me and thus it makes little sense to me to increases horizontal speed/acceleration for dodging, but I would like to see the increase in turning speed.
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armor +25% => spire legit
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come on guys...
why would you buff the spire, every ship has a hardcounter, the spire is vulnerable to hades that is fine, dont fly towards a hades then. use terrain and move around.
Spires can rule duel at dawn, canyon ambush and paritan rumble if you use clouds and cover.
I remember some time ago people wanted to buff the goldfish, now the goldfish is considered a good ship without the buffs, because pilots actually put efforts into flying it correctly.
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The Spire's hardcounter is everything that shoots at it. No, you don't even have to shoot at it, a squid can ram it to death from up front without being shot at.
The Spire is not made to move around, since it is as slow as it is. It's tallness makes many covers not actual covers. It also hinders it from using certain routes, because it's just too tall to fit through, limiting its sneaky-ness.
Every ship can rule any map, but that relies on teamwork between captains and their crews as well as good strategizing mid-game. If you are good at these things and win with every ship than you are good pilot in a good clan/team, it does not make the ship balanced.
What is the Spire better at than other ships? A pyramidion can have the same killing power because you don't need more than a Gatling and a Mortar. A Mobula can have even more and it as well as most other ships can dodge and tank easier than the Spire could ever hope to.
It sure can have 1 medium gun and 3 light guns pointed at the same enemy, but is it enough to even out all its negatives? I think not. I would be almost ok with it if it would just be a tini tiny bit easier to engineer...
The more I think about the Spire the more I get the feeling it is just a joke ship.
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The balance im trying to imply is a ship wide function.
Upping the armor to the spire in my eyes will make it OP and at the same time less tanky in survivability.
But upping the Turning or the Acceleration can make or brake what the spire used to be.
Its not about having the spire fitting the role of a "WatchTower" or anything. Its still a ship, but the acceleration (Even with a slow speed) could be fast enough to utilise the Spires Body.
Like i mentioned, people really do miss shots at the spire when it flies side to side.
Either a much quicker turning, or a much quicker acceleration. Either way, you can still use the spires body.
This balance is not only better for the experienced players, new players or pub should be able to notice this and abuse it to a degree.
But take Skrimskraws comment a bit harder. What he says is true and there arent many spire fliers that showcase what the Spire can do.
That is why i say upping the armor can proove for an OP yett diminishing nature.
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Increasing the armor won't stop the spire from being a glass cannon. It won't nerf it's survivability either, Spire doesn't rely on quick hull rebuilds to overcome the enemy like the Goldfish or to an extend the Pyra do.
Instead, giving it more armor will give crew a slightly longer time window during which they can continue shooting. It will also stop the ship from dying when being rammed by anything.
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The Spire's hardcounter is everything that shoots at it. No, you don't even have to shoot at it, a squid can ram it to death from up front without being shot at.
The Spire is not made to move around, since it is as slow as it is. It's tallness makes many covers not actual covers. It also hinders it from using certain routes, because it's just too tall to fit through, limiting its sneaky-ness.
Every ship can rule any map, but that relies on teamwork between captains and their crews as well as good strategizing mid-game. If you are good at these things and win with every ship than you are good pilot in a good clan/team, it does not make the ship balanced.
What is the Spire better at than other ships? A pyramidion can have the same killing power because you don't need more than a Gatling and a Mortar. A Mobula can have even more and it as well as most other ships can dodge and tank easier than the Spire could ever hope to.
It sure can have 1 medium gun and 3 light guns pointed at the same enemy, but is it enough to even out all its negatives? I think not. I would be almost ok with it if it would just be a tini tiny bit easier to engineer...
The more I think about the Spire the more I get the feeling it is just a joke ship.
Practice some more. It's not as bad as you think.
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Increasing the armor won't stop the spire from being a glass cannon. It won't nerf it's survivability either, Spire doesn't rely on quick hull rebuilds to overcome the enemy like the Goldfish or to an extend the Pyra do.
Instead, giving it more armor will give crew a slightly longer time window during which they can continue shooting. It will also stop the ship from dying when being rammed by anything.
I know increasing the armor wont make it less glass cannony...
But the "Give crew a slightly longer time window" is what im afraid off. The spires survivability that im refering to is quick hull rebuilds that come up just in time. I noticed in one of my gameplay, our hull cameup before the heavy flak hit us. Or a barrage of light flaks. If the armor gives enough time window to continue to shoot, the ship will always win in 1v1 situations. Or most of the times. Right now, the spire works even with its low armor because of its guns. The previous spire did infact work because it had armor that of a pyra, but it didnt have the guns of todays spire.
Combine the forces of new spire and old spire is a very very strong ship that in most cases has to be 2v1'nd
But to ask, how much more armor are we really thinking.
400 is not that far from 650.
500 is 100 more than the original and prolongs the rebuild time by 2 extra spanners. Which sounds more diminishing.
600 is way to close to pyra armor which results to always winning fights versus similar armored ships because stats, and etc.
And why isnt Acceleration or a turning buff a good one?
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And why isnt Acceleration or a turning buff a good one?
I am not saying it's bad, I just believe it guess against the very design of the ship, but that shouldn't hinder an atttempt to balance it, if it isn't balanced.
I do fly Spire, I can fly Spire, but everytime I do, I get the feeling my engineers are busier than on any other ship...
Probably the acceleration works here to get out of fire.
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Ask any experienced player to rate the ships from strongest to weakest and almost all of them will place the Spire on the bottom of the list.
It's not weak, as it's a very capable ship, but it is the weakest.
550 armor sounds good. Let's ask awkm to Dev App it.
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Don't forget that while the spire may be the weakest, it also has the strongest potential for offense, with one heavy gun, and three light guns that can get on the same target. Even when taking one light gun out of the question it still has lot's of firepower.
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When I'm speaking of weakest I'm referring to a ship with the least competitive potential.
The Spire has an incredible amount of offensive firepower, but being weak against disable and all out killing as well as being unmaneuverable and a giant target isn't offset by the strength.
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Ive seen less squids than spire in competetive, and i use spire almost always competetively.
I do not think it is weakest competetively.
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I still don't believe the spire is as bad in competitive goi as some say. Remember the goldfish was considered too weak, and now without changing anything it has become a lot more common.
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I never said the Spire was weak, I just said it's the weakest.
And for the record I was never one of those who stated the goldfish was weak. There was never anything wrong with the Goldfish other than it is hard countered by some ships and team compositions and those builds happened to have been at one point the meta of the moment. Now that the meta has shifted the Goldfish is being recognized as valuable again.
The squid is often not taken into competition because it represents so much risk. Positioning, flight, gunner accuracy and engineering need to be near perfect for a squid to be competitive and for most teams that's just too difficult to rely on doing consistently or even at all and so they prefer to run ships that have greater margins of error.
If the Spire were to receive more armor, that balance would shift and further open up the range of ships being used.
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I never said the Spire was weak, I just said it's the weakest.
And for the record I was never one of those who stated the goldfish was weak. There was never anything wrong with the Goldfish other than it is hard countered by some ships and team compositions and those builds happened to have been at one point the meta of the moment. Now that the meta has shifted the Goldfish is being recognized as valuable again.
The squid is often not taken into competition because it represents so much risk. Positioning, flight, gunner accuracy and engineering need to be near perfect for a squid to be competitive and for most teams that's just too difficult to rely on doing consistently or even at all and so they prefer to run ships that have greater margins of error.
If the Spire were to receive more armor, that balance would shift and further open up the range of ships being used.
What has shifted in the meta that made the goldfish more common? Less artemis spam? Or was it just something people were scared to try but could have worked all along. And shouldn't we expect near perfect engineering from competitive? They always say this is "the highest level of play."
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What has shifted in the meta that made the goldfish more common? Less artemis spam? Or was it just something people were scared to try but could have worked all along. And shouldn't we expect near perfect engineering from competitive? They always say this is "the highest level of play."
Less artemis spam for sure. The triple-art junker was a death sentence for anything with a heavy gun due to the long rebuild time. Even with perfect engineering there's nothing you can do about the constant time it takes to rebuild a heavy, especially when it's very likely to immediately be shot out again.
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Crafeksterty
Ive seen less squids than spire in competetive, and i use spire almost always competetively.
I do not think it is weakest competetively.
Captain Smollet
I never said the Spire was weak, I just said it's the weakest.
I still do not think that is true. Like i said, no one really tries to make it work.
Buffed armor allready leads to 520 armor for the spire. And even that is pretty small.
Buffed armor of 550 armor is 715. Almost double that of the spire we have now, equal to an unbuffed pyra, close to unbffed junker, and the spire we have now allready can do devestation with the current armor. When the armor becomes more accepting its going to make people play the spire more yes, but pyra, galleon, even junker, mobula all have to rely on disabling the spire constantly because the spire will always outgun resorting to Artemis, carronade, flamer etc always versus a spire.
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What about moving the balloon back to its former position (next to the stairs leading down to the current hull spot from the helm) OR moving the hull somewhere to the lower deck? That way a single engineer could easily maintain the most essential components on the ship.
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That would just go backwards in updating when it comes to progress. The pilot can help easier even with the gunner on this current set up. For your second suggestion, it would make the spire more tanky but by design inside of the ship wouldnt make for a fun gameplay or splitt the players how the players should be.
I would move the hull to where the baloon was (Next to the stairs on the upper deck). That way the spire will be tanky in the sense if focused.
But the reason for putting it in the lower ramp is to delay that sudden repair by just a bit. When the baloon was upstairs, it was repaired/rebuilt fairly quick, perhaps quicker than the junkers baloon.
But the focus took its time because the baloon is tough to rebuild/repair. The hull is very easy, and so the delay is balance to the sudden rebuild making it Tanky like a goldfish or squid.
In some aspects kinda enforces 3 engie 1 gunner combo.
There is actualy no problems with the set up we have now, it is actualy more beneficial if the gunner and the pilot take the extra step to run up or down a ramp to repair the hull.
But no really... the spires aspect is very hard to see, it being not so glass cannon like will end up force ships to try and counter it directly.
The only ship that is directly countered with extreme specific choices is the junker. And that is not because of its stats, but rather its Form. The junkers baloon is huge but the hull really small.
So people result to punching the baloon of the junker instead. But it has strengths against it like the baloon being easily accesible by the pilot and an engineer so the baloon can always and will always be repaired quicker than most ships. (Excluding the squid, the squids baloon is pretty quick).
The thing im suggesting for the spire is to Use its form. It is slender, and like i said. People do miss it if it goes side by side. Problem is, it isnt that much and is equal to other ships.
The junker has a hard armor to hit along with tough armor. The Mobula is horisontal and has a baloon underneath, it goes up and down fast. The spire may as well go Horizontaly and turn fast because it is a vertical shape. It is a very simple concept.
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I would move the hull to where the baloon was (Next to the stairs on the upper deck). That way the spire will be tanky in the sense if focused.
This would be a significant buff and definitely worth considering if an armor increase is deemed unbalanced.
My general sense is that the Spire shouldn't necessarily be "tanky" but it needs more durability than it has now so that it can leverage its firepower for a longer duration. Moving the hull closer to the guns will allow a quick mallet or chem spray in effect extending the armor up period and allowing more shots to go out before rebuild is required and 1-2 guns are no longer shooting.
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Huh?!
But didnt you read the second things i said after?
The design fitted with the baloon because it was tough to repair.
But an easy to repair component next to a person at all times will lead to an engineer captain, which isnt a wanted aspect. Along with this leading to an incredibly tanky behaviour.
It is a better option than straight up armor, but the design of the ship will change alot. It wont leverage the firepower longer. Its still the same hull that holds the same numbers.
One mallet swing or wrench swing when the hull armor is damaged is the only thing being more convinient. Other than that, running to rebuild is still going to make the firepower suffer.
Current set up can let the gunner run up to help on the hull with the same distance as to the baloon. (Perhaps 0.3 seconds longer path)
Meaning that current set up is actualy tankier if gunner and pilot are aware of the hull along with an engineer who also should be aware of the hull.
And by that time where everyone is rebuilding, you will be wanting to run away, juke or something.
What is wrong with acceleration buff and turning? D:
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I wouldn't say engineer captain isn't wanted. I've considered running it quite a few times. You can ask any crew I run with, I jump off the helm a lot. The problem with acceleration or turning buffs is that it doesn't help the glass cannon do what it's supposed to: Fire it's guns. If you give it some hull armor it can actually out-fire something. If you can't out-fire anything, why even consider a spire? It can't take advantage of cover, so positional advantages are harder to pull off. You aren't going to out-fly anything just by nature of your easy to hit profile, so turn speed and acceleration aren't going to do much. All a turn speed buff would do is help you turn your guns onto arc marginally faster which isn't a concern at spire range, on a ship where turning is already pretty good. An acceleration buff would help against ships shooting you at your side. However you are never going to win with a spire if you aren't pointing at the enemy.
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The design fitted with the baloon because it was tough to repair.
But an easy to repair component next to a person at all times will lead to an engineer captain, which isnt a wanted aspect. Along with this leading to an incredibly tanky behaviour.
It is a better option than straight up armor, but the design of the ship will change alot. It wont leverage the firepower longer. Its still the same hull that holds the same numbers.
One mallet swing or wrench swing when the hull armor is damaged is the only thing being more convinient. Other than that, running to rebuild is still going to make the firepower suffer.
Current set up can let the gunner run up to help on the hull with the same distance as to the baloon. (Perhaps 0.3 seconds longer path)
Meaning that current set up is actualy tankier if gunner and pilot are aware of the hull along with an engineer who also should be aware of the hull.
And by that time where everyone is rebuilding, you will be wanting to run away, juke or something.
What is wrong with acceleration buff and turning? D:
I already almost always engineer captain Spires. Having the hull right behind the helm and next to the guns will allow minimal delay between repairs/rebuilds and shooting. A big improvement to the ship in many ways.
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Oh come on, the acceleration isnt about the guns. The guns on the spire is fine. Its the Spire as a SHIP.
The acceleration buff helps for the sake of survivability, utility and positioning.
The survivability comes from Reaction.
With acceleration buff, the spire will be able to react to most things. As soon as you are in a threatning situation, the spire should be able to react and do something about it.
It can use cover with this, and outrun shots being shot at with it.
Utility comes from mindgames
An acceleration buff to the point of noticability. The spire as a slender form, a pin point dot. Like i mentioned with mind gaming versus a pyra or a squid. With acceleration buff, the spire can go back to finding their range versus an opponent quickly.
And position comes from actualy putting the spire where it seppoused to be.
The most basic examples is stopping from hitting a wall. Being able to go around corners quickly. And quickly go to cover to cover without too much wind-up.
People can allready win with this current spire, the strength of the ship, is being strong on its sudden offence. The weakness of the ship is being easily harmed. Another weakness is its difficulty, so what i ask is a strength that revolves around the spires body.
Edit: Im thinking 6.00 acceleration or more. The spire is 3.00. Squid is 5.50. Pyramideon is 2.50. Galleon is 2.10. Junker 4.30. Mobula 4.25. Goldfish 3.50
Spire falls right above pyra accel, right under goldfish accel. Junker and Mobula even they with greater stats, armor many things of numbers than the spire have 1.25 more acceleration.
The spires stats are just bad. The only stat that fits the design of the ship to be greater than others is acceleration to help its body.
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If the Spire gets shot at, it's in most cases already losing, so it has to escape to get a better engagement next time, and turning around corners is probably the only way for the Spire to escape.
I don't see any problem with moving the hull up. How long stays a Spire alive when both pilot and gunner sit on the hull? I would rather make use of the gunner to shoot at the enemy to get less damage myself. And I do believe a Spire profits more from pilot tools than from one more engineer tanking the hull.
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I would take the hull and put it up top and give it more armor and a slower time to repair... I would then make the overall health of the ship less. The resulting changes would make the top engineer a better gunner for the top guns which would really strengthen the spire. I really like the idea of having my top gunner on the weapons at all times and being able just to run over and whack the hull with the mallet. Likewise I think that the main engine should get much more health as a result of the engineer being so far away being more of a supplement gunner and repairing the hull the engineer in charge of that will be quite far away(which is in line with making the acceleration faster you would think that the engine would get more HP)
Edit: Im thinking 6.00 acceleration or more. The spire is 3.00. Squid is 5.50. Pyramideon is 2.50. Galleon is 2.10. Junker 4.30. Mobula 4.25. Goldfish 3.50
Spire falls right above pyra accel, right under goldfish accel. Junker and Mobula even they with greater stats, armor many things of numbers than the spire have 1.25 more acceleration.
I like the sounds of 6.0 maybe even 6.33(Repeating hahahah<3) but I think even that might overdo it... I think it might be better if we have closer to a 5.0 rather then a 6. The spire really does need to get upto speed fast but I don't think that it needs to be that fast...
I also think the baloon based abilities that make you go up and down should do quite a bit less damage on the spire because they are really helpful in escaping a ram from a paramidilion or a barage from a galleon.(but that maybe a whole other can of worms I shant get into even though I want... I am just going to leave that there. I in no way think that the spire should have more balloon health...
PS. I will add to this later it's really unfinished g2g
Also, PPS welcome me to the forums <3
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Oh come on, the acceleration isnt about the guns. The guns on the spire is fine. Its the Spire as a SHIP.
The acceleration buff helps for the sake of survivability, utility and positioning.
The survivability comes from Reaction.
With acceleration buff, the spire will be able to react to most things. As soon as you are in a threatning situation, the spire should be able to react and do something about it.
It can use cover with this, and outrun shots being shot at with it.
Utility comes from mindgames
An acceleration buff to the point of noticability. The spire as a slender form, a pin point dot. Like i mentioned with mind gaming versus a pyra or a squid. With acceleration buff, the spire can go back to finding their range versus an opponent quickly.
And position comes from actualy putting the spire where it seppoused to be.
The most basic examples is stopping from hitting a wall. Being able to go around corners quickly. And quickly go to cover to cover without too much wind-up.
People can allready win with this current spire, the strength of the ship, is being strong on its sudden offence. The weakness of the ship is being easily harmed. Another weakness is its difficulty, so what i ask is a strength that revolves around the spires body.
Edit: Im thinking 6.00 acceleration or more. The spire is 3.00. Squid is 5.50. Pyramideon is 2.50. Galleon is 2.10. Junker 4.30. Mobula 4.25. Goldfish 3.50
Spire falls right above pyra accel, right under goldfish accel. Junker and Mobula even they with greater stats, armor many things of numbers than the spire have 1.25 more acceleration.
The spires stats are just bad. The only stat that fits the design of the ship to be greater than others is acceleration to help its body.
THANK YOU! I've been saying this forever and people laughed at me. It's a glass cannon and it needs to kite. It's really silly how ano matter how well crewed a spire is, all a pyra has to do is charge it to win.