Author Topic: Point the Goldfish's guns forward  (Read 28127 times)

Offline Nidh

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Re: Point the Goldfish's guns forward
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2014, 03:17:25 pm »
A goldie that can get a chaingun/merc/hades in a BIFECTA with a hwacha is already more powerful than a Pyramidion, let alone a trifecta. Not only could you disable the entire ship, but it would die instantly as well, combined with the fact that the Goldie is more maneuverable than most ships allowing it to get into a better position much easier

Fun is a matter of opinion, and I find the Goldfish very fun to fly. It is my favorite ship.

The tactical nature of the Goldfish requires a different way of thinking than always going for the highest DPS. It's job is to give an advantage for your ally and TAKE AWAY DPS from the enemy.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 03:20:25 pm by Nidh »

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: Point the Goldfish's guns forward
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2014, 03:49:38 pm »
Sure fun is someting everyone has to state by himself but from my perspective the goldy is the worst ship atm.
From the fun view i dont like to crew or fly it just because how it handles. Its not that i dont know how i have to do it. But i really prefer any other ship.
Balance wise its in a kinda odd spot imo.

Offline Skrimskraw

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Re: Point the Goldfish's guns forward
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2014, 04:21:31 pm »
1. Use phoenix claw
2. turn ship
3. ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
4. Turn ship back to original position

Offline Velvet

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Re: Point the Goldfish's guns forward
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2014, 06:20:37 pm »
@Skrim: yes, it is possible to use the sideguns. Balance is a precise thing and the fact that something is possible or sometimes works does not mean it is in the state it should be in. If the gun positions were adjusted to allow certain bifectas and trifectas, the goldfish would be able to lay down enough long range DPS to be even worth considering for sniping, and gain a fair amount of DPS in brawling that would put it on a better par with comparable ships. I have argued a number of other weaknesses that would, in my opinion, mitigate the effects of this buff and leave the Goldfish reliant on what are still quite situational tactics. I feel there is a certain amount of contempt being displayed in this thread as some people neglect to read others' arguments for the buff and assume that the people who favour this change don't understand the most basic and intuitive principles of flying certain goldfish builds. I am not wailing about the ineffectiveness of this ship, I am offering my thoughts about why I think it isn't a great ship right now and suggesting a specific change that will bring it into a better state of balance without significantly changing the character of how the ship is flown.

@Nidh

I contend that a gat/hwacha is not as powerful as a gat mortar. Firstly, the pyra is much better equipped to deploy both weapons simultaneously. I am not proposing fully forward facing side guns so the bifecta of those guns would not be usable whilst charging. The permahull DPS of a hwacha is lower than a mortar and I feel the hwacha is actually weaker to gat disable than the gat is to hwacha disable. I don't think it's been suggested that a hades or merc bifecta should ever be viable on a fish.

@Crafeksterty and Redria

I disagree with your apparent belief that the people whoa re unhappy with the current Goldfish have been flying it incorrectly. I don't think any poster in this thread is an inexperienced player, and while I can believe that you are better pilots than me, I don't think the skill differential is great enough to explain why so many people feel the Goldfish is ineffective. A lot of us have flown the goldfish before, even used it in competitive play in the past. The further issue with your experiences of noncompetitive play is that all of you are good players even if not always playing competitively. This means that, at least in pubs, your own skill is significant enough to tip the balance of the game even with an ineffective ship, and there are so many variable factors of crew and team variation that pretty much any build will get some success, particularly in the hands of experienced pilots. While not always a great representation, competitive matches are the least affected by factors such as disorganisation or huge skill differentials and therefore I think very important for assessing balance. And judging by the dearth of competitively flown Goldfishes, the current balance isn't very good for this ship, and rather than making a sweeping change with unwanted side effects like nerfing the art or buffing heavy guns I think the balance change should be one specific to the Goldfish that makes it more fun as well as more powerful.

I'd like to repeat my first post as it seems some missed it - I don't feel the guns should all point straight forward; there should be the edge of an overlap between 2 arts on the side slots. Not entirely sure about the numbers here, but I think that would lead to an acceptable overlap between a gat and hwacha and one that is too narrow to be viable, or nonexistent, when trying to use hades or merc on the side. When a galleon can field a perfect overlap between a light gun and 2 heavies as well as having significantly superior durability to a goldfish, I don't see how anyone can complain about OP firepower here. At long range, I can imagine double art + lumberjack would become viable, which would be pretty strong but be highly mitigated by the fact that the Goldfish's manoeuvrability doesn't help greatly in a snipe-out, its big, weak hull and front gun would be highly vulnerable to the normal sniping meta and it has to totally sacrifice its brawling ability to get this moderate longrange capability.
Something combining carousels or flamethrowers with a carronade would be nasty (and extremely fun!) but still would go down in seconds to good gatmortar, not effective versus efficient chemspray techniques and unlike a Pyra, reliance on 3 guns and the Goldfish's long engineering walks mean that it's impossible to lay down full DPS while getting any maintenance in - meaning this build would be highly reliant on excellent crew coordination and using your disable to avoid taking damage. Seems like a dangerous but not OP build requiring skilled play to utilise effectively; exactly what GOIO needs more of.
The gathwacha builds would be slightly buffed by this change but not excessively. The gats narrower angle means you would get no trifectas so it basically means slightly less steering is need to get the correct angles and that it's actually possible to achieve significant permahull against a team that are tanking hull properly. It'll still take more than 1 reload to down most ships meaning that the gathwachafish is in the same old situation of having to compensate for a slower kill with clever use of disable.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 06:22:08 pm by Velvet »

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: Point the Goldfish's guns forward
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2014, 07:42:33 pm »
seriously anyone who thinks the goldfish is viable hasn't flown against a competent crew armed with even one merc or art.  the ability to completely lock down the front gun means you are now relegated to using just one side gun.  in what universe is one light weapon viable?  teams who are good fire out your front gun and wait to read "so and so has rebuilt such and such weapon" and then shoot it out again... (or just time it) I have stared at a junker, a mobula, and puppy's pyra for almost 2 minutes not being able to do anything... meanwhile the spare guns are trained on my teammate as well as the other enemy ship since i can be effectively ignored.  goldfish are really only a "I got the jump on you so now you're dead" ship.  but honestly how is that dif from any other ship?!
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 07:44:25 pm by Cpt Janeway »

Offline Spud Nick

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Re: Point the Goldfish's guns forward
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2014, 11:01:28 pm »
Funny how the best ship in the game for disabling is always disabled.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: Point the Goldfish's guns forward
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2014, 12:36:40 am »
Double artemis lumberjack on the second fastest and second most all around maneuverable ship in the game would be in my opinion very unbalanced.

Same for double gat hwacha or double mortar carronade.

As far as fun goes, I really really enjoy flying the goldfish.  I've been flying the blenderfish all week and if you handle your engagement correctly it absolutely murders Junkers, mobulas, galleons, squids spires and just about anything that's not a Pyra.  Ramming a Junker, Mobula Squid or Spire without a balloon and armor while you still have armor up is frequently an instakill, Galleon's have always been prone to easy balloon locks.

Gunning on a goldfish is also really fun and tense as your whole ship depends on your skill. 

Granted, engineering is likely not super thrilling as it involves carefully timed buffs, chem sprays repairs and the occasional side gun shots however it can be a nice ship to engineer on when taking a break from piloting.

What the Goldfish really needs is: A new close range skill based piercing modifier heavy weapon, a change to heavy weapons making them more resilient to breakage and/or easier to rebuild, maybe more maneuverability for funsies (though it really doesn't need it).

In competitive play in most games, teams will usually favor characters or play styles with the highest dps.  That being said, I'm sure at some point a team will realize an instakill has really high dps, and may figure out a way to use a Golfish effectively against all the Junkers in competitive right now.

Offline Wundsalz

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Re: Point the Goldfish's guns forward
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2014, 04:30:09 am »
And no, the goldfish is very fun if flown right. Alot of people really dont use the side guns and just put stuff on those sides. Seriously, ships can turn guys.
There are barely any situations where it's good call to turn in the side guns if the front gun isn't a hwacha.

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Point the Goldfish's guns forward
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2014, 09:11:58 am »
And no, the goldfish is very fun if flown right. Alot of people really dont use the side guns and just put stuff on those sides. Seriously, ships can turn guys.
There are barely any situations where it's good call to turn in the side guns if the front gun isn't a hwacha.

Mine launcher and fare gun on lj fish I find extremely useful.

Offline Spud Nick

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Re: Point the Goldfish's guns forward
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2014, 10:37:10 am »
The spire got this treatment because it was a glass cannon that needed more cannon. The Goldfish plays a different role and does not need more cannon. However we do need more cannons to play with. Make more heavy guns Muse!

Offline redria

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Re: Point the Goldfish's guns forward
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2014, 11:13:34 am »
I think a new heavy weapon would give goldfish the push to be seen more often in competitive play. I also think that this would better protect the goldfish from being OP than trying to find the perfect angle adjustment for the side guns.

@Velvet,
I did not intend to insult you or anyone else in this thread. I realize everyone here is a pretty good pilot. I just think that squids and goldfish are different. By which I mean I can't fly them. I am a firm believer that everyone has a particular mindset when it comes to flying. This mindset can change over time, but your mindset will match 1 or 2 ships and you will be best on them. I fly pyramidion. It is straightforward, I don't have to coordinate my crew excessively, it has enough strength to handle ramming and mistakes, and I can push people around. Flying a squid or goldfish you have to think sideways. I watched Alistair Silas flying a hwachafish against the Clamour on Wednesday night and cringed as I watched him get a hwacha burst, then do a complete 360 spewing fire everywhere before lining up for another hwacha. But it worked. Piloting is about instincts half the time, and if your instincts are not in sync with your ship, it is difficult to use in competitive. So please don't take my comments to be an insult. I more mean it as an indicator that skill does not translate between ships as much as we might like it to.

I have stared at a junker, a mobula, and puppy's pyra for almost 2 minutes not being able to do anything...
artemis/merc have limited firing angles, and all of those ships are less maneuverable than a goldfish. Were your side guns disabled too? were you putting them in arc while you got your main gun rebuilt? were you trying to get out of arc or were you pretending to be a galleon and just rebuilding the gun facing the enemy hoping you might get a shot off in time?

I realize disabling hurts the goldfish more than almost any other ship, and that probably needs to be looked at, but there should be a fair amount of things you can do to avoid constant disable.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Point the Goldfish's guns forward
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2014, 12:17:44 pm »
The spire got this treatment because it was a glass cannon that needed more cannon. The Goldfish plays a different role and does not need more cannon. However we do need more cannons to play with. Make more heavy guns Muse!

This is basically the goldfishes problem. The front gun is the main deal with the goldfish, and there are only 4 of them, 3 which are viable without too many restrictions.

The more heavy guns, the more variations in the ships that use heavy guns will be seen.

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: Point the Goldfish's guns forward
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2014, 12:31:27 pm »
redria i will quote something a wise man once said,
the ability to completely lock down the front gun means you are now relegated to using just one side gun.  in what universe is one light weapon viable?

i will also quote a less wise but still intelligent man,

I agree that the goldfish could use a little love atm.
Nerfing the artemis put aside (disable kills goldfishes), tilting the side guns slightly forward might be a good approach.
Currently the fishy flight style the goldie is supposed to be flown with is relatively rarely seen ingame.

Offline Velvet

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Re: Point the Goldfish's guns forward
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2014, 12:53:46 pm »
Double artemis lumberjack on the second fastest and second most all around maneuverable ship in the game would be in my opinion very unbalanced.

Same for double gat hwacha or double mortar carronade.
how so? I feel the lumberthing would be strong but probably not too much. Unlike other long range ships, its DPS is reliant on all of the crew being some distance from important repair areas unlike the other heavy gun ships which have short repair distances, at least when the crew is properly coordinated. It's highly vulnerable to arts; not just the heavy gun being disabled but the low armour would be a significant disadvantage when trying to snipe against Artemis junkers.
I'm not arguing for angles that would make it possible to get 2 gats or mortars on 1 target so I'm not sure what the strength of those 2 builds are. They would be made more powerful, yes, thanks to possible bifectas or shorter turning angles but I'm not aware that those builds are strong or viable at all right now so a buff wouldn't be unwelcome.

As far as fun goes, I really really enjoy flying the goldfish.  I've been flying the blenderfish all week and if you handle your engagement correctly it absolutely murders Junkers, mobulas, galleons, squids spires and just about anything that's not a Pyra.  Ramming a Junker, Mobula Squid or Spire without a balloon and armor while you still have armor up is frequently an instakill, Galleon's have always been prone to easy balloon locks.

Gunning on a goldfish is also really fun and tense as your whole ship depends on your skill. 

Granted, engineering is likely not super thrilling as it involves carefully timed buffs, chem sprays repairs and the occasional side gun shots however it can be a nice ship to engineer on when taking a break from piloting.
I don't dispute that piloting and gunning on a goldfish can be as satisfying as on any other ship if not more so. While I can understand you and I agree that the goldfish engineer slot is a nice place to relax from piloting, what with the long walks, fresh air etc.
Unfortunately for the people who like to engineer as their primary playstyle a relaxing ride is probably less appealing.

The other point from the perspective of fun is that because the Goldfish is perceived as weak by some players it's not fielded so often as other ships, which decreases variety in the game and in my opinion this indirectly makes the game slightly less enjoyable than it could be.

What the Goldfish really needs is: A new close range skill based piercing modifier heavy weapon, a change to heavy weapons making them more resilient to breakage and/or easier to rebuild, maybe more maneuverability for funsies (though it really doesn't need it).
there are already 2 close range weapons. If the Goldfish relies on a single weapon to make it worthwhile again, it's going to mean a total lack of varied loadouts and a weapon strong enough to do that job might give an unwanted buff to the Galleon too. I feel whatever the buff is it needs to be specific to the Goldfish and definitely not to a specific gun, to avoid unwanted side effects and to ensure that there's more than one viable build for the ship.

In competitive play in most games, teams will usually favor characters or play styles with the highest dps.  That being said, I'm sure at some point a team will realize an instakill has really high dps, and may figure out a way to use a Golfish effectively against all the Junkers in competitive right now.
I disagree. A large number of teams favour sniping, and I think a significant part of the reason for that is that it's the least risky play style. Ramming and reliance on a single, easily disabled heavy gun is even riskier and less predictable than brawling so I think you're mistaken to think that it could ever win matches reliable or satisfy the requirements of a competitive meta. I also think the predominance of the artemis in competitive play would put the Goldfish at a very severe disadvantage.


@redria: No offence taken, sorry if my phrasing was overly defensive or reactive.
I don't know if I've seen a goldfish, let alone a hwachafish, used to great effect in evenly matched highlevel games recently. I may have missed some, competitive being my primary reference as I think pub matches generally have too high skill differentials and too many unrelated factors that confuse balance issues.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 12:58:48 pm by Velvet »

Offline redria

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Re: Point the Goldfish's guns forward
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2014, 01:01:59 pm »
in what universe is one light weapon viable?
a competent crew armed with even one merc or art.
From the same post you claim to be disabled and made useless by a single light weapon. Does the goldfish need some love? Probably. But is it this useless floating target that you seem to see it as? Certainly not.
I guess my concern is that if every ship and every gun can be viably used in competitive play (as things currently stand), then what happens when you buff something? Sure, the only instances of some things working are when one of the best players is using it, but how much is that player going to wreck the scene if you buff them?
Maybe that is the wrong outlook to have in a game with a delicate balance between making casual and competitive fun. But it is the feeling I have when people talk about buffing squid arcs, goldfish arcs, carronades, and flamers. They are all viable right now if just a little bit more risky.

@Velvet, I can post some videos... OVW and the Ducks scrim every Wednesday night. Alistair Silas has been bringing his goldfish pretty successfully, though he has limited internet and hasn't been able to participate in the more public events.