Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Velvet on April 02, 2014, 05:07:51 pm
-
There's a trend I've noticed particularly in competitive but also (to a lesser extent) in pub matches. You see Junkers, all the time. Pyramidions, also common. Galleons or mobulas are seen often enough. Spires and squids; occasionally, with unpredictable rates of success. But Goldfish? I feel that right now that ship is highly underpowered and additionally somewhat uninteresting to play on, resulting in them being a somewhat rare sight in the smoky skies.
I think the heart of this issue is that the goldfish is so heavily reliant on its main gun - most viable goldfish builds only make use of the side guns as backup because a single light gun has very limited DPS and spinning constantly to get tantalisingly close to a bifecta is difficult, leaves you too busy maintaining angles to perform other manoeuvres and is not really worth the effort with no great light + heavy gun synergies to match a gatmortar. The result is a pretty uninteresting ship, both in terms of entertainment value and competitive prospects.
The Goldfish is not very fun in my opinion for a few reasons. Firstly, it is totally ineffective at getting kills since no heavy guns adequately combine armour stripping and permahull damage and as previously mentioned it's not particularly viable to use your side guns to shore up these deficiencies. This means you either have to very slowly blend enemies down or run a build such as disable or flak that is near totally reliant on your ally to cooperate with you to compensate your inability to get kills singlehandedly.
The second issue is that the enginners' tasks generally involve fixing the balloon, fixing the hull, taking the long trip to the rear engine and occasionally putting out fires on the front gun. Even when on occasion the sideguns do see some action, it's very often the gunner that handles these because the primary and secondary guns are almost never needed to fire simultaneously. Having no
The ship's total reliance on the front gun means that any goldfish build will have a very narrow range of tactical options, extremely limited and specialised firepower and perhaps most importantly, be very vulnerable to the disable builds prevalent in competitive play. The goldfish can't participate in sniper battles because it has a third of the firepower, significantly less armour and much more disable vulnerability than comparable ships. In brawls, it isn't an entirely hopeless prospect but falls short of ships such as the Pyramidion or Junker because of the inability to get a quick kill and again, the dreaded artemis. I mean, the Pyra blend more effective than the Blenderfish. The "synergy" between the Hades and the nice big Goldfish hull just compounds these issues.
My proposal is to give the much-neglected sideguns some love and rotate them forward. Not enough to allow for the madness of a double/gat hwacha combo, but at least far enough to get light gun bifectas with guns such as the artemis, flamethrower and rocket carousel. Yes, a Goldfish trifecta would be a massive buff. But as it is the goldfish is a ship with everything against it and nothing in its favour. This change would make the Goldfish a mild contender in sniping and a strong brawler but I think that the deck is so stacked against this ship right now that even this buff would leave it with a significant number of disadvantages. Unlike every competitively viable ship, the Goldfish still wouldn't have the option of bringing a secondary set of weapons so would have to choose between brawling and sniping. It would still be unable to make proper use of very strong sniping weapons such as the Hades or Mercury and remain extremely susceptible to art disable, that large, lightly armoured hull abetting the problem of constant explosive bombardment. Overall I think with these and other weaknesses in mind, the buffed Goldfish would retain the same character of a ship that has to work closely with its ally, whether specialising in support or relying on situational effectiveness by ambushing enemies or catching them off guard. I think the competitive meta needs some variety and this buff would make the goldfish not OP but a very interesting addition to the roster of frequently seen ships.
The rotation would also fix the previously mentioned issue of nothing interesting for engineers to do. A constantly viable trifecta would introduce the choice and variety present on the other vessels as prioritising between gunning and ever-vital repair work becomes necessary.
-
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2784.0.html
-
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2784.0.html
my bad, checked the gameplay forum but missed that thread.
Nevertheless, considering the lack of change that thread has catalysed in 5 months maybe it's time to try a new one in a different forum to see if it can attract some more attention.
-
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2784.0.html
my bad, checked the gameplay forum but missed that thread.
Nevertheless, considering the lack of change that thread has catalysed in 5 months maybe it's time to try a new one in a different forum to see if it can attract some more attention.
S'all good, just remembered there being a thread being... pretty much about the same thing. In fact, now that I recall and search, there's also https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3515.0.html which is pretty much literally the same thing.
I believe the general consesus was that putting both gun arcs forward would make the goldfish OP.
-
The goldfish already has a lot going for it speed and maneuverability wise. I don't think it needs an easy bifecta. It can get boring at time for the engineers when only the front gun gets any play, so I usually bring a flare gun, which can overlap the front gun's arc. Putting 10 stack of fire on the hull or balloon on top of what ever chaos the main gun is causing is often enough to overwhelm the other team's engineers.
Also in a team fight a manticore fish can be used to disable one ship while the side gun helps strip the armor off another ship so that a teammate can finish the job.
-
well this has been debated already. My personal opinion on this matter is tilting one of the side guns roughly 15-25° forward would make the goldie more viable and more interesting to play.
-
I vote for this to be the next dev app test after light flak and flamer get figured out.
-
Being primarily a Goldfish pilot i suggest against this. A hwachafish can get a bifecta with the light carronade and artemis, a blenderfish can get a bifecta with an Artemis and Banshee as well. As much as I'd like to get a buff to my favorite ship, this is not the right way to do it. I would rather have a more protected heavy gun, and a wider variety of heavy gun options to choose from.
-
the fish needs a buff that is for sure, how we do it is up for debate... I would prefer a better way to shield the main gun but I don't know how that could be done. if my suspicions are correct and that the front gun can not be protected more, easily, I think turning the side guns is a great alternative
-
Would another front facing gun on the roof make it too powerful? Too similar to the spire?
-
A single front facing gun would make it better than the pyramidion, beating it in maneuverability, firepower, tanky-ness, and ease of use. I hate to say this because i really want a buff to the goldie myself, but i think it's pretty well balanced... But it is definitely a support ship that requires a good ally ship to really have it shine. Taking kills is not it's job, it's job is to give its ally advantages over a target. If we give the goldie an easy way of killing things, it would be the best ship hands down in the game.
-
Would another front facing gun on the roof make it too powerful? Too similar to the spire?
Too similar/powerful probably.
Junker and Galleon - 2 guns on each side, plus a gun facing along the axis of movement (plus the galleon gets a side light weapon).
Pyramidion and Mobula - Strong forward facing arcs combined with poor maneuverability and large blindspots.
Squid and Goldfish - Featured front gun with 2 more guns at 90 degree angles from each other. High maneuverability with low damage output.
Spire - (when not dead) Strong arc overlap with no durability
Junkers and galleons get good arc overlaps, and thus have seen more use in competitive play. Good gunning/engineering can help overcome piloting deficiencies. Good communication ships.
Pyramidions and mobulas get good arc overlap, and thus have seen more use in competitive play. Pilot awareness is key to protect blindspots.
Spires - ??? Opponent has a merc/hades/gatling? gg (not really, but spire is the weakest ship IMO)
Squids and goldfish have poor arc overlap and thus have seen less use in competitive play. Ability of pilot to blend all weapons into use regularly is a must, and engineering oversights can leave you drifting.
Squids and goldfish properly maintained have amazing durability, and can enter battles and disengage better than any other ship. Lacking is the ability to get easy overlap of guns. It requires much higher pilot focus to blend together 2 guns at the angles used. Change the angles and make overlap easier and you get ships that can easily engage and disengage, and also get kills quickly without requiring the pilot to be perfectly dialed in.
I consider the squid to be the pilot's biggest challenge, and the goldfish to be the ship needing the highest level of synergy between gunner and pilot. I know this isn't about the squid, but it does come up. Watching Puppy Fur fly a squid makes me feel like a hack who gets by on just a couple tricks. The same can really be true about a goldfish. A goldfish is really sort of a heavy squid - as Nidh says, a ship that gives its ally an advantage. We already have ships with strong arc overlap. A well flown squid or goldfish are much more interesting to see fly, simply because it takes a lot more creativity to blend in different damage types.
TL;DR: Goldfish can be effective, just not in the same way as other ships. Giving it easier overlap makes it more boring. It simply requires more skill and dedication to be truly effective, and more trust in your ally.
-
goldfish isn't balanced. Anything works in pubs, so imo the only relevance of balance in non-high level play is how it contributes to the game being fun. I feel the current balance of the goldfish is not fun, because firstly it makes the goldfish unexciting to crew on and secondly makes the Goldfish pretty rare leading to less variety in most matches.
High level is much the same as pubs. Weak Goldfish = less variety and less interest and fun, a narrower choice of viable ships leading to a shallower and less varied tactical layer. Competitive is the good proof that the goldfish is weak - because no one really uses it.
Could those postulating that the goldfish would be OP with a narrow trifecta (limited to certain guns) suggest some of the ship builds that they think would be too powerful and how the issue would emerge? I don't really see it myself but I may be missing something.
Redria, I don't think it's right to attribute the rarity of the Goldfish and squid in competitive to piloting difficulty. Some teams will learn anything if it will work best. They are difficult to pilot effectively, yes, but even when piloted well they attain a damage output that is lesser or equal to other ships, with no capability to snipe effectively and a low armour that is a much larger issue in high level play against teams that are spamming arts or have nailed down their mortar timing. I see the Goldfish's manoeuvrability as compensated by other weaknesses beyond just the bad gun angles.
-
Goldfish are very effective allready. Its not weak, it is teamwork reliant.
What would make the goldfish strong is a new heavy weapon. Just that can make some ships stronger or weaker or more viable. (depending on the recieving side)
And no, the goldfish is very fun if flown right. Alot of people really dont use the side guns and just put stuff on those sides. Seriously, ships can turn guys. Play by those rules. There is no heavy gun ship that is as fast as the goldfish. The Galleon has to show his sides, while the spire is allready slow. The goldfish is the only ship that goes fast with a front facing heavy gun.
You can actualy vary up with some style. Like a carronade fish can have pilots tools of Moonshine/kyrosine along with Impact bumbers. Making the Goldfish not only a support, but also a ramming ship that will not miss its ram how a pyramidion can miss a ram.
Or be a full support unit with a hwacha, where the hwacha is specific about taking out weapons of the other ships. And its side guns as an extra supplementary for the ally like a gattling or a carronade.
Now it sounds difficult doing this, but really no other ship can do this without putting themselves in a huge danger or waiting for the opponent to get to them.
Last time i played with a goldy competetively, i was all about making the enemy not be able to do much. But being as we are goldfish, we wont die as easily with the added meneuverability and tankiness that we have. Making it the best ship to fly in first from behind, grabbing attention, making them look where i want them to look so my ally can finish the job.
You shouldnt have the same tought as a pyramidion / junker / galleon or whatever ship when flying the goldfish. Every ship is different, utilise what they offer as much as possible.
-
I totally agree with Velvet.
I really think this one gun focus of the goldfish is what kills its use.
Yes you can get bifectas but those bifectas are quite small and quite hard to keep them up.
-
A goldie that can get a chaingun/merc/hades in a BIFECTA with a hwacha is already more powerful than a Pyramidion, let alone a trifecta. Not only could you disable the entire ship, but it would die instantly as well, combined with the fact that the Goldie is more maneuverable than most ships allowing it to get into a better position much easier
Fun is a matter of opinion, and I find the Goldfish very fun to fly. It is my favorite ship.
The tactical nature of the Goldfish requires a different way of thinking than always going for the highest DPS. It's job is to give an advantage for your ally and TAKE AWAY DPS from the enemy.
-
Sure fun is someting everyone has to state by himself but from my perspective the goldy is the worst ship atm.
From the fun view i dont like to crew or fly it just because how it handles. Its not that i dont know how i have to do it. But i really prefer any other ship.
Balance wise its in a kinda odd spot imo.
-
1. Use phoenix claw
2. turn ship
3. ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
4. Turn ship back to original position
-
@Skrim: yes, it is possible to use the sideguns. Balance is a precise thing and the fact that something is possible or sometimes works does not mean it is in the state it should be in. If the gun positions were adjusted to allow certain bifectas and trifectas, the goldfish would be able to lay down enough long range DPS to be even worth considering for sniping, and gain a fair amount of DPS in brawling that would put it on a better par with comparable ships. I have argued a number of other weaknesses that would, in my opinion, mitigate the effects of this buff and leave the Goldfish reliant on what are still quite situational tactics. I feel there is a certain amount of contempt being displayed in this thread as some people neglect to read others' arguments for the buff and assume that the people who favour this change don't understand the most basic and intuitive principles of flying certain goldfish builds. I am not wailing about the ineffectiveness of this ship, I am offering my thoughts about why I think it isn't a great ship right now and suggesting a specific change that will bring it into a better state of balance without significantly changing the character of how the ship is flown.
@Nidh
I contend that a gat/hwacha is not as powerful as a gat mortar. Firstly, the pyra is much better equipped to deploy both weapons simultaneously. I am not proposing fully forward facing side guns so the bifecta of those guns would not be usable whilst charging. The permahull DPS of a hwacha is lower than a mortar and I feel the hwacha is actually weaker to gat disable than the gat is to hwacha disable. I don't think it's been suggested that a hades or merc bifecta should ever be viable on a fish.
@Crafeksterty and Redria
I disagree with your apparent belief that the people whoa re unhappy with the current Goldfish have been flying it incorrectly. I don't think any poster in this thread is an inexperienced player, and while I can believe that you are better pilots than me, I don't think the skill differential is great enough to explain why so many people feel the Goldfish is ineffective. A lot of us have flown the goldfish before, even used it in competitive play in the past. The further issue with your experiences of noncompetitive play is that all of you are good players even if not always playing competitively. This means that, at least in pubs, your own skill is significant enough to tip the balance of the game even with an ineffective ship, and there are so many variable factors of crew and team variation that pretty much any build will get some success, particularly in the hands of experienced pilots. While not always a great representation, competitive matches are the least affected by factors such as disorganisation or huge skill differentials and therefore I think very important for assessing balance. And judging by the dearth of competitively flown Goldfishes, the current balance isn't very good for this ship, and rather than making a sweeping change with unwanted side effects like nerfing the art or buffing heavy guns I think the balance change should be one specific to the Goldfish that makes it more fun as well as more powerful.
I'd like to repeat my first post as it seems some missed it - I don't feel the guns should all point straight forward; there should be the edge of an overlap between 2 arts on the side slots. Not entirely sure about the numbers here, but I think that would lead to an acceptable overlap between a gat and hwacha and one that is too narrow to be viable, or nonexistent, when trying to use hades or merc on the side. When a galleon can field a perfect overlap between a light gun and 2 heavies as well as having significantly superior durability to a goldfish, I don't see how anyone can complain about OP firepower here. At long range, I can imagine double art + lumberjack would become viable, which would be pretty strong but be highly mitigated by the fact that the Goldfish's manoeuvrability doesn't help greatly in a snipe-out, its big, weak hull and front gun would be highly vulnerable to the normal sniping meta and it has to totally sacrifice its brawling ability to get this moderate longrange capability.
Something combining carousels or flamethrowers with a carronade would be nasty (and extremely fun!) but still would go down in seconds to good gatmortar, not effective versus efficient chemspray techniques and unlike a Pyra, reliance on 3 guns and the Goldfish's long engineering walks mean that it's impossible to lay down full DPS while getting any maintenance in - meaning this build would be highly reliant on excellent crew coordination and using your disable to avoid taking damage. Seems like a dangerous but not OP build requiring skilled play to utilise effectively; exactly what GOIO needs more of.
The gathwacha builds would be slightly buffed by this change but not excessively. The gats narrower angle means you would get no trifectas so it basically means slightly less steering is need to get the correct angles and that it's actually possible to achieve significant permahull against a team that are tanking hull properly. It'll still take more than 1 reload to down most ships meaning that the gathwachafish is in the same old situation of having to compensate for a slower kill with clever use of disable.
-
seriously anyone who thinks the goldfish is viable hasn't flown against a competent crew armed with even one merc or art. the ability to completely lock down the front gun means you are now relegated to using just one side gun. in what universe is one light weapon viable? teams who are good fire out your front gun and wait to read "so and so has rebuilt such and such weapon" and then shoot it out again... (or just time it) I have stared at a junker, a mobula, and puppy's pyra for almost 2 minutes not being able to do anything... meanwhile the spare guns are trained on my teammate as well as the other enemy ship since i can be effectively ignored. goldfish are really only a "I got the jump on you so now you're dead" ship. but honestly how is that dif from any other ship?!
-
Funny how the best ship in the game for disabling is always disabled.
-
Double artemis lumberjack on the second fastest and second most all around maneuverable ship in the game would be in my opinion very unbalanced.
Same for double gat hwacha or double mortar carronade.
As far as fun goes, I really really enjoy flying the goldfish. I've been flying the blenderfish all week and if you handle your engagement correctly it absolutely murders Junkers, mobulas, galleons, squids spires and just about anything that's not a Pyra. Ramming a Junker, Mobula Squid or Spire without a balloon and armor while you still have armor up is frequently an instakill, Galleon's have always been prone to easy balloon locks.
Gunning on a goldfish is also really fun and tense as your whole ship depends on your skill.
Granted, engineering is likely not super thrilling as it involves carefully timed buffs, chem sprays repairs and the occasional side gun shots however it can be a nice ship to engineer on when taking a break from piloting.
What the Goldfish really needs is: A new close range skill based piercing modifier heavy weapon, a change to heavy weapons making them more resilient to breakage and/or easier to rebuild, maybe more maneuverability for funsies (though it really doesn't need it).
In competitive play in most games, teams will usually favor characters or play styles with the highest dps. That being said, I'm sure at some point a team will realize an instakill has really high dps, and may figure out a way to use a Golfish effectively against all the Junkers in competitive right now.
-
And no, the goldfish is very fun if flown right. Alot of people really dont use the side guns and just put stuff on those sides. Seriously, ships can turn guys.
There are barely any situations where it's good call to turn in the side guns if the front gun isn't a hwacha.
-
And no, the goldfish is very fun if flown right. Alot of people really dont use the side guns and just put stuff on those sides. Seriously, ships can turn guys.
There are barely any situations where it's good call to turn in the side guns if the front gun isn't a hwacha.
Mine launcher and fare gun on lj fish I find extremely useful.
-
The spire got this treatment because it was a glass cannon that needed more cannon. The Goldfish plays a different role and does not need more cannon. However we do need more cannons to play with. Make more heavy guns Muse!
-
I think a new heavy weapon would give goldfish the push to be seen more often in competitive play. I also think that this would better protect the goldfish from being OP than trying to find the perfect angle adjustment for the side guns.
@Velvet,
I did not intend to insult you or anyone else in this thread. I realize everyone here is a pretty good pilot. I just think that squids and goldfish are different. By which I mean I can't fly them. I am a firm believer that everyone has a particular mindset when it comes to flying. This mindset can change over time, but your mindset will match 1 or 2 ships and you will be best on them. I fly pyramidion. It is straightforward, I don't have to coordinate my crew excessively, it has enough strength to handle ramming and mistakes, and I can push people around. Flying a squid or goldfish you have to think sideways. I watched Alistair Silas flying a hwachafish against the Clamour on Wednesday night and cringed as I watched him get a hwacha burst, then do a complete 360 spewing fire everywhere before lining up for another hwacha. But it worked. Piloting is about instincts half the time, and if your instincts are not in sync with your ship, it is difficult to use in competitive. So please don't take my comments to be an insult. I more mean it as an indicator that skill does not translate between ships as much as we might like it to.
I have stared at a junker, a mobula, and puppy's pyra for almost 2 minutes not being able to do anything...
artemis/merc have limited firing angles, and all of those ships are less maneuverable than a goldfish. Were your side guns disabled too? were you putting them in arc while you got your main gun rebuilt? were you trying to get out of arc or were you pretending to be a galleon and just rebuilding the gun facing the enemy hoping you might get a shot off in time?
I realize disabling hurts the goldfish more than almost any other ship, and that probably needs to be looked at, but there should be a fair amount of things you can do to avoid constant disable.
-
The spire got this treatment because it was a glass cannon that needed more cannon. The Goldfish plays a different role and does not need more cannon. However we do need more cannons to play with. Make more heavy guns Muse!
This is basically the goldfishes problem. The front gun is the main deal with the goldfish, and there are only 4 of them, 3 which are viable without too many restrictions.
The more heavy guns, the more variations in the ships that use heavy guns will be seen.
-
redria i will quote something a wise man once said,
the ability to completely lock down the front gun means you are now relegated to using just one side gun. in what universe is one light weapon viable?
i will also quote a less wise but still intelligent man,
I agree that the goldfish could use a little love atm.
Nerfing the artemis put aside (disable kills goldfishes), tilting the side guns slightly forward might be a good approach.
Currently the fishy flight style the goldie is supposed to be flown with is relatively rarely seen ingame.
-
Double artemis lumberjack on the second fastest and second most all around maneuverable ship in the game would be in my opinion very unbalanced.
Same for double gat hwacha or double mortar carronade.
how so? I feel the lumberthing would be strong but probably not too much. Unlike other long range ships, its DPS is reliant on all of the crew being some distance from important repair areas unlike the other heavy gun ships which have short repair distances, at least when the crew is properly coordinated. It's highly vulnerable to arts; not just the heavy gun being disabled but the low armour would be a significant disadvantage when trying to snipe against Artemis junkers.
I'm not arguing for angles that would make it possible to get 2 gats or mortars on 1 target so I'm not sure what the strength of those 2 builds are. They would be made more powerful, yes, thanks to possible bifectas or shorter turning angles but I'm not aware that those builds are strong or viable at all right now so a buff wouldn't be unwelcome.
As far as fun goes, I really really enjoy flying the goldfish. I've been flying the blenderfish all week and if you handle your engagement correctly it absolutely murders Junkers, mobulas, galleons, squids spires and just about anything that's not a Pyra. Ramming a Junker, Mobula Squid or Spire without a balloon and armor while you still have armor up is frequently an instakill, Galleon's have always been prone to easy balloon locks.
Gunning on a goldfish is also really fun and tense as your whole ship depends on your skill.
Granted, engineering is likely not super thrilling as it involves carefully timed buffs, chem sprays repairs and the occasional side gun shots however it can be a nice ship to engineer on when taking a break from piloting.
I don't dispute that piloting and gunning on a goldfish can be as satisfying as on any other ship if not more so. While I can understand you and I agree that the goldfish engineer slot is a nice place to relax from piloting, what with the long walks, fresh air etc.
Unfortunately for the people who like to engineer as their primary playstyle a relaxing ride is probably less appealing.
The other point from the perspective of fun is that because the Goldfish is perceived as weak by some players it's not fielded so often as other ships, which decreases variety in the game and in my opinion this indirectly makes the game slightly less enjoyable than it could be.
What the Goldfish really needs is: A new close range skill based piercing modifier heavy weapon, a change to heavy weapons making them more resilient to breakage and/or easier to rebuild, maybe more maneuverability for funsies (though it really doesn't need it).
there are already 2 close range weapons. If the Goldfish relies on a single weapon to make it worthwhile again, it's going to mean a total lack of varied loadouts and a weapon strong enough to do that job might give an unwanted buff to the Galleon too. I feel whatever the buff is it needs to be specific to the Goldfish and definitely not to a specific gun, to avoid unwanted side effects and to ensure that there's more than one viable build for the ship.
In competitive play in most games, teams will usually favor characters or play styles with the highest dps. That being said, I'm sure at some point a team will realize an instakill has really high dps, and may figure out a way to use a Golfish effectively against all the Junkers in competitive right now.
I disagree. A large number of teams favour sniping, and I think a significant part of the reason for that is that it's the least risky play style. Ramming and reliance on a single, easily disabled heavy gun is even riskier and less predictable than brawling so I think you're mistaken to think that it could ever win matches reliable or satisfy the requirements of a competitive meta. I also think the predominance of the artemis in competitive play would put the Goldfish at a very severe disadvantage.
@redria: No offence taken, sorry if my phrasing was overly defensive or reactive.
I don't know if I've seen a goldfish, let alone a hwachafish, used to great effect in evenly matched highlevel games recently. I may have missed some, competitive being my primary reference as I think pub matches generally have too high skill differentials and too many unrelated factors that confuse balance issues.
-
in what universe is one light weapon viable?
a competent crew armed with even one merc or art.
From the same post you claim to be disabled and made useless by a single light weapon. Does the goldfish need some love? Probably. But is it this useless floating target that you seem to see it as? Certainly not.
I guess my concern is that if every ship and every gun can be viably used in competitive play (as things currently stand), then what happens when you buff something? Sure, the only instances of some things working are when one of the best players is using it, but how much is that player going to wreck the scene if you buff them?
Maybe that is the wrong outlook to have in a game with a delicate balance between making casual and competitive fun. But it is the feeling I have when people talk about buffing squid arcs, goldfish arcs, carronades, and flamers. They are all viable right now if just a little bit more risky.
@Velvet, I can post some videos... OVW and the Ducks scrim every Wednesday night. Alistair Silas has been bringing his goldfish pretty successfully, though he has limited internet and hasn't been able to participate in the more public events.
-
There are barely any situations where it's good call to turn in the side guns if the front gun isn't a hwacha.
you dont turn in the side guns. the side guns gain arc incidentally as you move and twist. you are not playing for high dps in a goldfish you dont need to be hitting every time. you just need to hit at the right time. when it is of most value to your team.
If you are flying a goldfish you must fly unexpectedly aggressively and aggressively defensive. with the speed of a goldfish you can weave in get some hits and get out, not easily mind you, the engineers need to be up to snuff. you can also fly in such a way that you target the ships targeting your allies. you can remove enemies from arc on your allies and you can just straight up remove the damage sources. giving your ally time to repair and kill the threat. (this all assumes you are using the hwatcha or carronade which are the most popular weapons on the goldfish, if you are going for a damage goldfish with the flak or lumber your gunner better be good because you have to be constantly changing target to what ever ship is the biggest threat/easiest pickings.)
by removing damage sources from your allies and thus preventing damage that was going to be taken, you are essentially healing your allies, in a round-a-bout way. the goldfish functions much like the cleric in 4th edition dungeons and dragons. yes you are supporting your allies but you are doing it by beating the fuck out of the most opportune enemy. and it becomes more and more useful the more allies you have.
if you turn the gun arcs forward you remove its capability to be hitting almost no matter what direction the ship is facing and moving, thus making it boring.
-
in what universe is one light weapon viable?
a competent crew armed with even one merc or art.
From the same post you claim to be disabled and made useless by a single light weapon. Does the goldfish need some love? Probably. But is it this useless floating target that you seem to see it as? Certainly not.
I guess my concern is that if every ship and every gun can be viably used in competitive play (as things currently stand), then what happens when you buff something? Sure, the only instances of some things working are when one of the best players is using it, but how much is that player going to wreck the scene if you buff them?
Maybe that is the wrong outlook to have in a game with a delicate balance between making casual and competitive fun. But it is the feeling I have when people talk about buffing squid arcs, goldfish arcs, carronades, and flamers. They are all viable right now if just a little bit more risky.
@Velvet, I can post some videos... OVW and the Ducks scrim every Wednesday night. Alistair Silas has been bringing his goldfish pretty successfully, though he has limited internet and hasn't been able to participate in the more public events.
If you could post any videos that would be very helpful, thank you. As it is it's difficult for me to accept that all of the ships are competitively viable as all my experience suggests otherwise and that it's quite a narrow set of weapons and ships that are used to effect in competitive play. Maybe I might learn something new.
There are barely any situations where it's good call to turn in the side guns if the front gun isn't a hwacha.
you dont turn in the side guns. the side guns gain arc incidentally as you move and twist. you are not playing for high dps in a goldfish you dont need to be hitting every time. you just need to hit at the right time. when it is of most value to your team.
If you are flying a goldfish you must fly unexpectedly aggressively and aggressively defensive. with the speed of a goldfish you can weave in get some hits and get out, not easily mind you, the engineers need to be up to snuff. you can also fly in such a way that you target the ships targeting your allies. you can remove enemies from arc on your allies and you can just straight up remove the damage sources. giving your ally time to repair and kill the threat. (this all assumes you are using the hwatcha or carronade which are the most popular weapons on the goldfish, if you are going for a damage goldfish with the flak or lumber your gunner better be good because you have to be constantly changing target to what ever ship is the biggest threat/easiest pickings.)
by removing damage sources from your allies and thus preventing damage that was going to be taken, you are essentially healing your allies, in a round-a-bout way. the goldfish functions much like the cleric in 4th edition dungeons and dragons. yes you are supporting your allies but you are doing it by beating the fuck out of the most opportune enemy. and it becomes more and more useful the more allies you have.
The Artemis has the final say in disable. Triple art effectively used has far greater range and precision as well as more consistent, maintained disable and a lesser vulnerability to return fire than a Hwacha. Both the Hellhound and Manticore are (at least alone, and in my opinion) highly ineffective against the combination of gat mortar and art disable that you'll experience trying to get close to most high level teams.
if you turn the gun arcs forward you remove its capability to be hitting almost no matter what direction the ship is facing and moving, thus making it boring.
I do not see how highly varied gun angles are necessary when, as has already been discussed at length, the Goldfish is fantastically manoeuvrable and unlike a Mobula or Galleon doesn't need a gun arc in every direction to quickly attack enemies on any side.
-
Here is a scrim between GlowWater Thralls and Sacrilege.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykyq5wja1vk
-
The Artemis has the final say in disable. Triple art effectively used has far greater range and precision as well as more consistent, maintained disable and a lesser vulnerability to return fire than a Hwacha. Both the Hellhound and Manticore are (at least alone, and in my opinion) highly ineffective against the combination of gat mortar and art disable that you'll experience trying to get close to most high level teams.
The artemis only has the "final say" if you build this situation in such a way that soft cover does not matter and you are flying in a straight line. as it is in reality every single map has enough soft cover, if used to the fullest, a goldfish can move in close unseen. and by flying in a non-linear fashion you can dodge a great many artemis shots while you are far away. no gun is unbeatable. and if it is the question should be how to change that gun, not to design the game around imbalance.
I do not see how highly varied gun angles are necessary when, as has already been discussed at length, the Goldfish is fantastically manoeuvrable and unlike a Mobula or Galleon doesn't need a gun arc in every direction to quickly attack enemies on any side.
also the multiple gun arcs matter because you can fire then protect your heavy weapon by turning, shielding it with your ship, and still being able to put out some damage to support your ally. if you put the focus more towards frontal attacking, then it is actually more vulnerable to being locked down
-
The Artemis has the final say in disable. Triple art effectively used has far greater range and precision as well as more consistent, maintained disable and a lesser vulnerability to return fire than a Hwacha. Both the Hellhound and Manticore are (at least alone, and in my opinion) highly ineffective against the combination of gat mortar and art disable that you'll experience trying to get close to most high level teams.
The artemis only has the "final say" if you build this situation in such a way that soft cover does not matter and you are flying in a straight line. as it is in reality every single map has enough soft cover, if used to the fullest, a goldfish can move in close unseen. and by flying in a non-linear fashion you can dodge a great many artemis shots while you are far away. no gun is unbeatable. and if it is the question should be how to change that gun, not to design the game around imbalance.
There plenty of spots on maps that make an approach to brawling range extremely risky and difficult. And the Goldfish gets a very slow kill with only 1 gun firing at a time so you will still also suffer greatly from art or even gat disable at brawl range.
I don't feel the Artemis is hugely OP, as it is there is a lot of balance in sniping between mercs, artemis and hades and brawling teams have engaged teams centred around art builds to great effect. The fact that one weak ship is highly vulnerable to the predominant tactics makes me inclined to think the ship should be buffed rather than the tactics nerfed.
also the multiple gun arcs matter because you can fire then protect your heavy weapon by turning, shielding it with your ship, and still being able to put out some damage to support your ally. if you put the focus more towards frontal attacking, then it is actually more vulnerable to being locked down
quick rebuild times of light guns and a tripled ability to return fire should make that a non-issue. I find it hard to see how this change could actually make the Goldfish weaker, even if it invalidates and changes certain tactics.
-
I think both sides on this issue might be viewing the other as a bit too extreme.
While I fall under the group that feels the goldfishes guns are fine the way they are and that it would be ridiculous to have all 3 guns pointed forward, I UNDERSTAND that is not what the other side is saying, and I can see where they are coming from.
Tilting the goldfishes side guns forward a mere 15 or 10 degrees would actually make it easier to harass ships with both the light gun and heavy gun on the goldfish without loosing to much of its side arcs. And this stops the problem of dual gat hwatcha as Gatling guns would not be able to shoot forward with such a small change, but it makes it easier for the goldfish to fire the hwatcha then turn to get a Gatling gun in arc.
Certain weapons with better arcs like the flamer carousel rockets and Artemis would now have overlapping arcs with the front gun giving the goldfish a higher dps and making it a bit more suitable for 1 vs 1.
Again I am fine with the way the goldfish currently is but i would not be complaining about any buffs it receives as long as it keeps the same current feel.
-
Double artemis hwacha goldfish.
-
weird that allistair seems to agree the goldie needs help
-
weird that allistair seems to agree the goldie needs help
two different Alistairs.
Double artemis hwacha goldfish.
that would hurt. But without the armour strip of a hades and outranged by triple art, and not forgetting that the hwacha can be so easily disabled, I don't think it would be obscenely powerful in a sniping fight. Might be a slight issue in brawling though.
Remember though that as soon as the Goldfish starts taking fire both arts quickly drop out the fight as permanent hulltanking becomes necessary and the engines & balloon are a nice long way from the guns. This fish would also suffer a lot from fire weapons because there's no natural opportunity for the engineers to go on chemspray runs, so presumably they'd have to use extinguishers and interrupt firing to deal with fire issues. (or an engineer captain.. that could be fun)
-
let me ask you guys this.
how do you set up your team?
some ships works incredible together, and some doesnt. a junker/pyra combo have a disadvantage in being agressive and chasing.
the goldfish has a front gun that it lives off. it works incredible on teams that use advanced tactics. sneaking in, splitting up and flanking is where this ship is incredible. When you start to park your goldfish like a galleon, thats when the enemy team is just going to snipe out your gun constantly.
Its a incredible mobile ship and very very durable as a short time tank. you shouldnt play the goldfish as you would other ships, you need to use perfect altitude positioning and staying clear of open spaces, where you can get hammered down.
also making the goldfish able to trifecta is game breaking lol. thats basicly a spire with the most insane mobility.
-
The hull is directly next to the right gun. It would hardly ever need to stop shooting, the pilot could easily take chem spray as a tool and the left gun would never stop shooting.
The goldfish is so agile it could fight at any range it wanted, easily outclassing every ship in the game with greater firepower other than the port side of a Galleon and out fly anything other than a squid (which probably wouldn't be an issue with 3 disabling guns and the ability to ram).
Double Artemis hwacha is more than enough DPs to break through armor and kill while the opponent is completely disabled.
I don't think th there's a way I could be convinced a trifecta goldfish would be balanced. If not for the ease in removing their front gun and keeping it down, the Goldie would be one of the best ships in the game. If a blender fish arrives unannounced, the fight is over in the goldfishes favor since no escape is possible.
I think people are under valuing the benefit of maneuverability paired with the ability to deny thayvof your opponent.
-
Welp, Leto is not good at uploading our scrims to youtube. And for whatever reason his twitch page loses past broadcasts after about 5 days. So I only have one video.
http://www.twitch.tv/therobanddanshow/b/516547411 (http://www.twitch.tv/therobanddanshow/b/516547411)
The first game (about 40 minutes in or so) has a squid, the second game (about 70 minutes in or so if I recall) has a goldfish.
We have also had the goldfish paired with different pyramidion builds going up against different Duck teams including double galleon and galleon-junker. I wish I had the videos because we have had a lot of success with it.
I'm not saying this would work in every situation. But the goldfish is certainly viable, just a different challenge to use. Like I said, it is my opinion that you have to think differently to use it effectively.
-
What we really need to do to make goldfish and squid viable is remove the preemptive drums and remove the compass auto-spot. Suddenly ambushing/stealth/general sneakiness becomes a lot more more appealing, while other playstyles are unaffected.
That's not to say I'm opposed to tilting the guns forward, the goldfish is an assault ship after all, not defensive/tanky like the junker or galleon, and the gun placement needs to reflect that. A single light gun does not a proper broadside make.
-
^^ this
-
Finally a fresh idea, Omniraptor makes a very good point. Although i do like the feeling the drums/ music change adds, they work against the advantage those ships might have.
And what do you mean by compass auto-spotting? I never use that thing and only fly by sight and sound.
-
Fly like a fish.
You can bifecta a flamer with the carro and swivel gattling into Manticore.
Compass autospotting doesn't exist. It was something in Dev app when the compass change happened but never made it into production.
-
sacrilege used to fly only goldfish back in the day
and we even flew them before we where called sac
tcd tropo yolo days
boom yolo tropo and castus
sac spire goldfish
referring to clan matchs only
my team no longer plays goldfish there un happy with many things
yolo has almost left the game due to how esay it is to beat our orgnail play stlyes
i would love to see the goldfish make a come back