Spawn system feedback 1.3.4

[Richard LeMoon]

So, I have tried this out now for a string of games on both the winning and losing side. The main thing I noticed is that matches are confined to very small areas of large maps. As such, old strategies don't work. Pilots are bringing new sets of tools and trying out different loadouts. I actually found the frantic 'brawling riot' a lot of fun, even in my slow-turning Mobula. Team communication is even more key in winning. It is sort of like playing on an even smaller Scrap map without all the scrap in the way. All in all, it is not as terrible as everyone has been saying. It is just different. Rather than turning to engage the next foe with your allies, you often turn to empty air to cover a flank.

Saying that, the cons are that you do ignore most of the map, and there is no time to fix everything while your foe gets a fresh ship. Like most people, though, I would not want to play this style of game all the time. It is just way too frantic.

However, even when spawns are fixed, I would not mind having a new map that actually highlighted this fast-action brawling without too many tricky obstacles (looking at you, Scrap). Something like a larger, flyable version of the Devil's Sinkhole in Texas. But, that is besides the point.

[awkm]

The neutral zone in between each line of scrimmage is similar to what it is currently in Dunes.  It should remain similar for all DM maps.

@Richard LeMoon

This is promising.  Hopefully with the coming improvements some of that frantic energy is maintained but also bring back some of the more calculated efforts.  In short, both is good.

[Tropo]

i'm just going to repost because it looks like my views are being ignored
and i'm a high level player and have played for a while and i play on avg 20 to 40 matches a day

should not be able to spawn in the middle of the map special if there a battle going on

shouldn't be able to spawn on the same spot straight after some one else

main reason why

mobula: Slow turning speed, primarily long range.
Spire: Weak to close range, slow speed.
Squid: Speed advantage is lessened.
Clouds have less utility in regard to the new spawning system.
Strategy is a lesser part of the game now, and people have been abusing the
system by delaying the spawn and then spawning behind slow ships.

[Zyem]

I really dislike the new system.

I was having significant communication and coordination issues with my crew last night (along with terrible loadout decisions on my part) which should have rendered us pretty much completely ineffective. The respawn system allowed us to get some kills that we didn't earn.

It felt very cheaty and it's not the sort of thing where I can just emulate the old respawn mechanics on my own as I would then be conceding a huge advantage to my opponent (if they "cheat" with the new system) and that would be even less fun.

Killing your opponent should never put you in a weaker combat position.

If anything, I would go with the suggestion of having a limited number of respawn points to choose from. Use the same logic that decided acceptable respawns before and just let the top 3-5 preferred by that algorithm be available to choose from. You still might get the "lucky" close spawn, but then you have a choice whether to use it (rather than before when you could end in an immediate 2v1 again!).

That way, you don't get a free "drop" on your enemy when you die (unless you're lucky), but you can sit and wait to deploy and spawn with your ally before engaging again.

I've always seen the respawn system as emulating re-enforcement ships arriving into the battlefield. Perhaps instead of a timer-to-deploy, you can choose your angle of entrance to the map and when you deploy, you actually fly onto the map from outside it? This way, you can be seen being reintroduced as a threat, even if the engagement is right at the edge of the map.

For example, say I die and immediately choose to enter the map from the south. My ship would be spawned off the south side of the map and flown in on autopilot at a speed that would reintroduce me to the match 10 seconds after my death, up to the ships maximum possible speed (i.e. as though moonshine was being used but without the damage). During this autopilot time, nothing would be interactive to prevent "en route" buffing, ammo loadout etc.

If I instead decide to wait, due to knowing my ally is about to die, we can both spawn in together.

Pros:

1) More realistic
2) Ships no longer materialise out of nowhere, let alone right next to you
3) No change to time taken to become "active" in the map (unless you sit at the respawn for quite a while)
4) Enemies get a chance to see your reentering the map and behave accordingly (i.e. disengage and retreat)

Cons:

1) Enemy can camp your reentry point as they can see you while the ship is in autopilot
2) Can lead to being autopiloted into mines at the edge of the map
3) Momentum from map entrance could be used to do ramming damage or end up flying you into terrain
4) May not work on all maps (Canyon Ambush)
5) EDIT: Discourages combat at the map edges

[Chango]

Patches with big fundamental changes need more time in Dev App. We push to get our members signed up do testing events. But we need more time to fit these events into our schedule. With such a large change, every map needed to be tested. One week between Dev App to Release is not enough time...

Also, there were lots of concerns on the Dev App forum, but were ignored and told 'I'll let it play out and see what happens.' What happens is you lose casual and competitive players until the next patch. Not a good gamble to make on a PvP game..

[Byron Cavendish]

Basically, no logic changes can be made right now.

It's either fix spawn locations, or not ship the feature.

To use this as reference: no one asked for this system. We've been asking for spawn fixes since...May? Fjords and Dunes have been broken competitively in terms of immediate spawn locations. We have been quite clear that we want this fixed, it seems like this "feature" is something you guys want, not us.

BTW still love ya Eric we just need this stuff fixed

[Subarco]

I'll just lay out a common scenario that happened last night when I was playing. I was in a sniping war with two Spires as a Mobula. After a good while, I got outgunned and died. Then I looked at the spawns and saw that I could spawn behind not only the two Spires, but the entire enemy team. My ship consisted of 1 Mercury and 4 Artemi. Result? Two spires almost immediately disabled and killed, and the other two ships weakened enough for my allies to finish off with no trouble. I backed off a little from the spawn, and sure enough the Spires spawned, but with their back towards me. Another quick disable and kill.

Before my initial death, the game was relatively equal in score, but that one spawn really threw off the balance between the teams. I suggest either disabling the ability to spawn in enemy territory entirely or have a longer timer to respawn.

Here's another scenario and common to crazy KoTH type games. Since there are "base" spawns now, often, one team gets a huge lead advantage by having the entire team spawn right next to the point and having all the time in the world to prepare for the enemy team that spawned all the way across the map from the point. The rest of the points may be contested fairly, but that initial spawn gives way too much to the team that spawns nearest to it.

I suggest the initial spawning for crazy KoTH type games to be like be scrambled and random like before this patch so that no team gets such a big advantage at the start.

[Mod Josie]

It feels like giving up, and of course I don't know how GoI's code is archived from patch to patch - but is it not possible to roll-back parts of code that were implimented into the new build? For instance, is the code that is responsible for the end-of-match poses separately archived from the code that changes the spawn system? If the answer is yes, is it possible to revert the spawn system code back to how it was before the patch without corrupting the rest of the code?

I dislike my suggestion on the face of it, but at least that way changes to the system could be safely tested in the Dev App without keeping the current game in the state it's in at the moment. That said, i'm sure the hotfix on Monday will likely render my suggestion moot.

[Gryphos]

Bottom line, Muse: No one likes this system, no one asked for this feature, and no amount of added things like 'ship proximity limits' or 'team bases' is going to fix that. The only thing people ever wanted was for the starting spawns on Fjords and Dunes to be fixed, that's all.

We all appreciate the way you thought this was a good idea, and only wanted to help. But please change it back.

[Thomas]

Has anyone played Scrap under the new system? Personally I feel that change was really well done, or at least I think it was a change. I believe the old system had ships spawn at other sides of the map and race to the middle. When playing recently we spawned near the same side and had to race to the point while also being able to engage. It was a lot more intense and opened up some interesting new strategies.

In this particular instance I was careening like a mad-man towards the point as is standard practice, and one of my team mates had the idea to engage the enemy to slow them down so we could get to the point first. Overall it was a pretty intense match.




My initial reaction to the new spawn system was pretty negative, but I think it can be made to work with a few tweaks. I think the initial spawn on Desert Scrap is pretty good. Ships start in formation, fairly close to the enemy. Not close enough to start brawling immediately, but not far enough for sniping ships to feel comfortable. You put them about that distance apart with some clouds or terrain between them to prevent instant shootdowns, and you're off to a good start.

I don't think any player dislikes being able to choose their spawn. It's a nice feature. We just don't like being able to spawn immediately on top of each other. For the hotfix we can only change the spawn timer or locations (as far as I'm aware). We don't want the timer too long, so I think we should focus on locations.


Splitting the maps for teams seems like a good solution, even with the possible camping issue. Although I think it might be more interesting to cut it up into more than two pieces. For example:



The purple is the initial, which is supposed to represent where ships more or less spawn currently. Then the red and blue spots are where each team can respectively spawn. Canyon isn't all that much different from the current version. It's essentially bases +1 extra spawn well behind enemy lines. This is to give a general spawn area, and options for flanking without being able to spawn directly on top of them (most of the time).

I think ideally options are good, but you don't want too many options. Right now the maps are pretty saturated with spawn points, making it so much easier to spawn on your enemy.

[Byron Cavendish]

No amount of spawn fixes is gonna make scrap fun. No one likes that map because the storms are a pain the a** plain and and simple. The storms seem good on paper, to make assaulting an encamped team on point easier. However the storm is so big and so random it essentially just flash stops all combat in a city block radius whilst everyone gets annoyed and starts repairing. Random grinding halts to combat for silly reasons is not a fun mechanic.

[awkm]

People have complained about old spawns for a very long time.  People just got used to it and forgot.  Here is a review of the feedback we've gotten about the spawns:

- Still able to spawn close to enemy and get killed
- Potentially able to get into spawn limbo (no spawns available, all occupied by enemy)
- Spawn too far away from teammate
- Spawn too far away from capture point
- Spawn system is random, want choice

We've had spawn revisions on the docket for a  very long time and it ended up getting done now.  And to be honest, I want this spawn system to be in (with improvements, it's just broken right now.  We missed things for a number of reasons so that's our fault). 

To pull the code will require both client and server side work.  It's not just rolling it back to a previous version.

We get it, you don't like it.  We hear you.  So we're fixing it.

Here is what's happening in the hot fix.




Both teams spawn on their line of scrimmage near the center of the map.  The distance between the lines of scrimmage is similar to the distance between initial spawns in the old spawn system, so don't worry.  They're not any closer than they have to be to allow you to prep up and get a few Spire shots in before brawlers come charging through.  Also, in Dunes you have roving sandstorms now so you can't just charge willy nilly. 

The space in between the lines of scrimmage is the Hot Zone (I think I called it neutral before but this makes a little more sense).  It's hot because it's probably where most of the combat is going to take place?  Why?  Because spawn points for each team are in their respective areas.  Going into enemy zones will be very risky because they can choose a spawn that's in your blind spot.  This gives defending players the opportunity to drive offensive players out of their zones.  Combat will likely be driven back to Hot Zones where NO SPAWNING CAN TAKE PLACE.  In other words, you can never spawn offside or beyond your line of scrimmage or in the hot zone.  In Dunes DM, there are four spawns in each team's zone.  Some closer to the line of scrimmage, others farther.

These rules are being applied the best they can to all DM maps.  CK and KOTH maps do not fit the rules and will vary from map to map based on their capture point and terrain layout.

Why this system is better:

- You will never spawn randomly close to the enemy, if you spawn close to the enemy then they are invading your zone.  If they kill you again, you can respawn on them.  Basically, you have home team advantage.
- There will never be any spawn limbo since we don't block spawns based on proximity
- You can position yourself to get to your teammate quickly.  You may not be able to spawn on your teammate if they are in the hot zone, though.
- You can choose spawns that are closer (or farther depending on your build) to the capture points
- You can choose where to spawn
- You can't spawn on the other side of the map (this wasn't possible before because of a small feature we glossed over, my fault, and it was too late to put the patch in.  I made a call and left it this way instead of doing bases with intial spawn very far apart.  I thought it would be better to start close to your teammates.  I was wrong.)




Again, I get it that people don't like it.  It's being changed, you can stop yelling now.  Instead, please give me feedback on these proposed changes so I can make changes before this thing goes into the hot fix otherwise you may stuck with it until the next patch in 1.5 months. 

I'll let everyone know when this goes into Dev App so people can test the maps.



@Bryon Cavendish

The storms are not random and are less than they were before.  They move from left to right.  When the cloud reaches the map edge, it respawns on the other side and begins again.  Try playing it again and if it's still that bad I can take a look again.  Furthermore, it takes less time to capture that point now.

[awkm]

@Thomas

I like your ideas.  I was actually thinking of pushing blue up to the canyon line in Canyons but decided against it.  Basically no changes to it for now.  Based on the feedback on spawning behind enemy lines... I'd rather not flirt with that and get another poop storm. 

IM STRESSED AS IT ALREADY IS GLFIEJASliawrgj29U

[Thomas]

I can imagine that it's difficult to see how the spawns will turn out until after they get some hardcore testing, especially with the amount of maps we have in the game.

I think giving the teams different zones is a good plan. At the very least it will stop the big issue of having the enemy spawn on your face.


In the long run I'm not sure how I'll feel about splitting the map up into team zones. Feels kinda generic and 'sportsy'. Ideally I'd always like options to spawn in different areas rather than always showing up in North or South (or whatever) of the map. But that's another topic for another day, and the proposed adjusted spawning doesn't have anything I'm overtly up in arms about.

[Richard LeMoon]

I think one issue here is that people are not reading the entire thread before posting. Please do so, people.