Spawn system feedback 1.3.4

[Mattisamo]

What about a semi-random spawn system instead? A combination of how it is and how it was. Rather than picking your exact spawn, just be able to pick general spawn locations, then you get a random spawn in that area. Sometimes you will get a lucky spawn, sometimes not.

This, I like this.

[Mod Josie]

What about a semi-random spawn system instead? A combination of how it is and how it was. Rather than picking your exact spawn, just be able to pick general spawn locations, then you get a random spawn in that area. Sometimes you will get a lucky spawn, sometimes not.

This, I like this.

That doesn't sound too bad at all. If the square with any 'spotted' enemies was greyed out and you could pick from any of the other grids - yes... I could go for that. When the issue of 'if you can't spawn near the enemy then you know where they are' came up - it was forgotten to note that you can respawn quicker than the ship you were fighting can shake its spot. Of course it makes sense to prevent you from spawning next to your killer. This proposition is very encouraging.
The system could be adapted for CP maps such that you can't spawn into regions close to the point - at the moment you can do so, which means suicide runs aren't penalised. It should take time for your ship to advance to the tactical location. This could work.

[Mod Josie]

What about if, when you die, you had the option to spawn in next to your ally (if they are not in combat themselves)? Just another thing to think about. That idea is a little less overpowered than being able to spawn anywhere.

[awkm]

For a hotfix, this is what can happen:

- Teams will spawn close together and in formation on their side of the map (the missing piece of functionality)
- Players can spawn in a selection of spawn only on their side of the map (reorganization of current valid spawns to team-specific) or any type of organization for that matter
- Spawn choice will stay in since it will take a while to pull if we decide to

Hot fix is planned to launch on by Monday

Some interesting takeaways from your comments:

- Select a quadrant or subsection of the map to spawn in.  Each quadrant will have some number of spawns that will randomly be selected for you based on old spawn logic (not spawning you into terrain or near enemies)



I'd also like to point out that these features are always tested before release and again there wasn't much participation in the Dev App.  There wasn't enough input early enough for us to safely pull the feature.  Part of it is on us and we'll make sure to hold testing for longer periods of time.  However, I'd like to encourage everyone to take part in Dev App testing.  Email keyvias@musegames.com  if you'd like to take part.  It's great to get everyone's feedback here, but of course the feature is out in the wild and we can't really do much about it until hot fix or next patch.

[Sammy B. T.]

Why are we working so hard to fix a system that is not liked, not required, and as best I can tell hardly even asked for. Spawns were fine a week ago, sure you could occasionally get unlucky on Fjords, but that was about it.

[awkm]

Everyone complained about the old spawn system too and just got used to it.

We can't pull the feature in a week anyway.  I'd rather attempt to fix it and make it better, see how that goes, before pulling out a lot of work (which also takes a lot of work).

[The Djinn]

Barring a distance-based spawning algorithm like the one I've suggested, and assuming that we're trying to fix a "Captain's Choice" spawning algorithm...

For one thing, there has to be some system in effect to prevent spawning within a given proximity of an enemy. Killing an enemy ship should net you a distinct advantage, not a 15-20 second window before a full health brawling Pyramidion spawns behind you. It's well worth having a zone of "can't spawn here" to force this: after all, you usually know where your enemies are when you die, and 15-20 seconds isn't enough time for them to radically change position on the map.

I'd also recommend that spawn locations be increased in number, and the available spawns be psudeo-randomized each time. A game I was in recently involved us killing enemy ships, remembering the "good" spawns near us, and simply waiting for them. By psudeo-randomizing the available spawns near a fight you help prevent the situation where ships always pick the most effective spawn and then take the exact same path into the fight, which helps decrease the repetitive nature of fights that I've experienced in the current build. Alternatively, lock out spawns, preventing you from simply spawning at the same point repeatedly.

[Thomas]

I almost like the idea of team spawn zones, but to me that feels as if it promotes camping. What about creating 2 or 3 different areas on the map per team, disabling zones where enemies are present?

So if one team decides to camp at their own spawn area in order to get back into the fight faster after going down, it will spawn them in one of the other zones on the map; making them have to fly back to assist the remaining team mate instead of spawning on top of the enemies head.

----
I think this brings up an important point about player complaints and suggestions.

What we tend to complain about is things that give us a disadvantage. We didn't like the random spawns because we'd end up getting unlucky spawns and be forced to fly across the whole map. We don't like this system because even though we  can spawn wherever we want (and we love that) is that so can our enemies. You'll notice most players bringing up 'spawning right behind me/on top of me' and not 'I spawned right behind them/on top of them'.

Right now the system -is- fair, extremely so. It even helps newer players do better against veterans, as they can spawn in ideal locations and get the drop on them. So it's much much harder to get that 5-0 score. The old system was also fair, but the random element could make it tip one way or another.

[The Djinn]

You'll notice most players bringing up 'spawning right behind me/on top of me' and not 'I spawned right behind them/on top of them'.

I actually have a huge issue with this as well. I don't feel like I have a *choice* of spawns: there's always one that's clearly best, and that's usually the one that puts me right down on my opponent's blind side and within my gun range. I don't find it particularly fair when it's done against me (when I'm most aware of it), but I also don't find it fair to know pop into existence behind an enemy spire and have my Carronade pointed immediately at his balloon either.

[awkm]

@Thomas: Very astute observations, and is exactly the pros and cons of each system.  We think the new system is a step in the right direction because randomness and tipping matches just because of that randomness is pretty silly.

By moving towards limited spawns and bases, I think we can move the system away from this "extremely fair" situation.  Sure, you'll be able to spawn on top of people if they're in your 'base'.  Sure, you'll be able to get spawned on top of if you're in their 'base'.  This is the only situation where it can tip, if you are in each other's respective spawns.  I believe that the coming improvements will focus battles near the center of the two bases.

This limited choice will also help eliminate the obvious-choice problem as well.  Since battles are likely to occur near the center and base spawn are behind the lines of scrimmage, it's a decision of what direction you want to approach combat from and at what distance.

[Sammy B. T.]

I've never said the new system is unfair. Instead it is unfun. Exploiting respawns will become a new skill that competitive teams will have to learn. The only tactic being added by choosing spawns at the moment is exploitation of the system.

I'm sorry you put in a feature that is not being well received but love of God, Guns is downright unplayable at the moment to fix an almost non existent problem.

[The Djinn]

By moving towards limited spawns and bases, I think we can move the system away from this "extremely fair" situation.  Sure, you'll be able to spawn on top of people if they're in your 'base'.  Sure, you'll be able to get spawned on top of if you're in their 'base'.  This is the only situation where it can tip, if you are in each other's respective spawns.  I believe that the coming improvements will focus battles near the center of the two bases.

The issues I see with this are two-fold (playing Devil's Advocate here):

Firstly, this strongly encourages zone-camping to retain your home-turf advantage. I can easily see games stagnating as each team tries to remain within the spawn range of their 'zone.'

Secondly...is it really ideal to attempt to force engagements to happen in the middle of maps? I know I personally love much of the map design, and it upsets me that we don't see as many fights in the corners of Canyon Ambush, some of the trickier edges of Duel, and so forth. On some maps (Dunes, I'm looking at you) this is less of an issue, but I feel that many of our maps have fully fleshed out and fully playable edges, so I'm not sure it's really a good idea to place so great an emphasis on fighting in the middle to avoid giving up a spawn advantage. Those combats already happen naturally...I don't like the idea of the spawn system forcing our hand.

[Thomas]

Combat often gravitates towards certain areas on maps as is. The one I like the least is canyon ambush, where almost all combat occurs south of the canyon near the blue spawn. (There was some suggestions about moving some clouds out of the canyon and around these areas to promote more players to push into the canyon where they can see better, and not hang around the large open area).

Players tend to move to places where they can maneuver and see better. It might require a little 'motivation' to be put in the spawn areas to help them decide they probably don't want to be there. (Unlike canyon, where the spawns are actually ideal for camping). Some heavy cloud cover or obstacles in the way could easily do the trick, and a lot of maps (all of them) already come with these features. It's just a matter of setting the locations. Although some maps may need to be tweaked (canyon canyon canyon canyon. Because I'm subtle).

[Chango]

Maybe take the ship icons out of the Spawn Map (And Smollett''s suggestion of an increased spawn timer is a very good point)
Making it a little harder to spawn right in the middle of the action.

[Mattilald Anguisad]

I have tried this on Labyrinth. My blenderfish managed to die at the same time as enemy hwachafish. What happened was that both choose the exact same spawn point. I was pinned to the end of the match there becouse enemy goldfish just kept spawning on that spawn and prevented me from getting to the point (you do NOT let a hwachafish on your tail).
Point of this story: Spawning ANYWHERE is an issue.