1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE

[dragonmere]

The main problem I have with the chem spray is the fact that it gets 0 cooldown if the part is fully repaired and not on fire, but the full cooldown if the part has even slight damage but still isn't on fire yet. Same with the extinguisher, but it's not supposed to be used BEFORE getting set on fire, so it's not a big deal.

You can't be coming close to an enemy ship that has a flamethrower, and suddenly decide you're gonna spray the entire ship real quick. If there's any sort of damage on and being done to the hull, that cooldown can be deadly. Same if the captain is using an engine damaging tool to get close to the flame ship. Spraying the engines means you've got that cooldown before they can get repaired again, and with moonshine on, thats a big deal.

Is it at all possible to make chem spray only initiate a cooldown if it's actively putting out fire? That would simplify the use of the tool down from "Pre-spray a part if you think you're going to be engaging an enemy that has fire weapons within the next 20 seconds and the part in question is  not going to be taking damage over the next 6 seconds or is currently entirely repaired" to "pre-spray a part if you think it's gonna get set on fire soon". I might like it then.

[The Djinn]

Any game mechanic change isn't going to happen any time soon.  Suggesting a new mechanic is fine but let's not dwell on the assumption that its going to go in next patch.

Of course. I think we're all aware (at least I hope we're all aware) that changing mechanics requires a much longer period of discussion, implementation, and testing before you really even decide if it's a good course to push to live or not. I know I'm just throwing some ideas out there that I think make the Chem Spray a proactive fire-protection method that requires a little maintenance (removing stacks before they build up to far and strip your protection) to avoid it being fire-and-forget.

Things I can change: cooldown, extinguish power (charge removal), fire resistance %, fire resistance time.  Those can go in during hot fix.

Extinguisher is reactive.  Chemical spray is proactive.  Those are the two design constraints and intentions between the two.

Alright. This suggests that our Extinguish power should remain relatively unchanged, as upping that makes it more reactive. I believe we currently have 100% fire resistance, which worries me, because it completely negates fire damage if we up the duration to high, but makes an Engineer run around Chem-Spraying constantly if we don't have the duration up.

What if we lowered the cooldown to 2-3 seconds (as it should be something you can do to protect something before repairing it), extended the protection to, say, a full minute, but reduced the protection to, say, a 60% fire resistance chance, as I suggested above? It's no longer blanket immunity, and it will eventually crumble before an extended Flamethrower assault, for example, but it's significantly more proactive because it lasts a rather long time, makes it harder to gain fire stacks in the first place, and allows the Engineer to quickly throw a patch on something with fire stacks (although he only removes a handful of those stacks). It fits the idea of being non-Reactive: your reactions are still there and still important, but they're relatively small, and more of a delaying tactic until you actually have time to fully extinguish things. Your main strength comes from being harder to burn down in the first place.

In summary:

Chem Spray
3-second cooldown -- can gain Fire stacks during cooldown
Extinguish Power: 3
Grants 60% fire resistance for 60-90 seconds.

Thoughts?

Edit: If Fire Resistance reduced damage instead of actually reducing the number of stacks applied, this number might need to be tweaked. The goal I'm aiming for is that Chem Spray basically buys you the time to win the fight or run through it's protection (although you may still have to deal with lingering fires later), while the Extinguisher removes the threat of the fire completely.

[Sammy B. T.]

I am here and watching.

Santa?


Anyway, if Chem Spray becomes a passive resistance then it is beyond useless. Its not like small fires aren't problematic in of them self. You want to make the Chem fun? 5 second cooldown, 1 extinguisher power, 30 second immunity, and the cool down goes on even if the gun is at full health.

[Queso]

I think extending the length of time the protection is applied could definitely be tweaked and extended. Keeping so few components safe from a single damage type is never going to be that great an option. The problem there is that you make it too good, and you effectively remove fire builds from the game. It's intensely specialized nature makes it a pain to balance. It's like trying to balance rock paper scissors without having scissors. Make chem too good, no fire. Make chem not good enough, nobody takes it. Is there any sort of third element we could tie to the balance?

[awkm]

Fire initial DPS, additional charge DPS, chance of fire on guns (rather not touch).

[Queso]

Well I'm speaking more in the theoretical and long term. I don't think the chem spray can be fixed with a hotfix, and it's not a desperate enough situation to call for one. I'm thinking something outside fire and chem spray. Perhaps something like reduced stats when you spray chemspray (damage, balloon lift, engine output, et cetera), but have it last a lot longer. That way if you find yourself taking heavy flame, you can hunker down, and take a slight reduction in stats, rather than take the fire.

[awkm]

I could actually do that.  Reduce component effectiveness on chem'ed.

[Queso]

Well that's definitely something worth testing once this post patch period calms.

[Sammy B. T.]

I am sorry but the Chem Spray is already under utilized, its alternative just got a massive buff, why are we trying to nerf the Chem Spray.

Flames were are already pretty balanced, why are we tweaking the tools?

[Thomas]

I'm not sure that would help the chem spray at all. I feel it's pretty ok as is, and was probably fine before. The problem was that while the fire ext was on cooldown, you'd just get another massive stack of fire. Ideally this should have been handled by chem spraying it, and then extinguishing it. This would have prevented more fire for a while and still gotten rid of all of it. Instead players just wanted the fire gone, playing completely reactively.

Right now it just prevents more fire while it's on cooldown, making the fire ext a little more useful when you're being bathed in an inferno. The chem spray still has it's place as a proactive tool, if and when players choose to use it as such. Obviously it's easier on some ships than others (such as the pyramidion, with it's hull and engines pretty close toghether; rather than something like the spire goldfish which has a lot of core components spread out).


Chem spray is still dominant at being proactive, but the cooldown and duration of the protection make it difficult to use. You can go around spraying everything right before you get into combat, and it'll last for 20 seconds; but very rarely does an engagement end that quickly. As the engineer focuses on other things, the protection ends and the fire starts building up again. Once things start burning, the chem spray just doesn't cut it by itself. It can certainly prevent more fire, but takes longer to extinguish a fire due to the cooldown and small stack removal.


I think one way players might feel the chem spray is a little more useful is if you reduce the cooldown a little. Right now it's a 5 second cooldown for a 3 stack removal and 20 second protection. With the long(ish) cooldown, players can feel less inclined to get the protection and try to focus on keeping the component alive. Compared to the fire ext which is a total stack removal and a 3 second protection with only a 3 second cooldown. Making it easier to use while in combat.

[Sammy B. T.]

The problem was that while the fire ext was on cooldown, you'd just get another massive stack of fire.

For me that was a feature. Something that made sense and something viable for flamers. You should not just be able to sit in a flamer without having previously protected yourself.

[Queso]

See the issue I see with it, is that if you only change chem spray's interaction with fire, you either make fire useless again, or you make chemspray fairly useless (the current state of things it would seem). In my suggestion, I would make fire useless by buffing the chemspray, adding a significant amount of time onto the effect duration, but I would also add another element into play, the component "debuff".

[geggis]

What about chem sprayed/fire-proofed components still being able to accumulate fire stacks but the fire doesn't do any damage until the fire-proofing wears off? Perhaps lit fire-proofed components could burn blue and the fire icon could be blue too (this would let everyone onboard know you're protected. Once the protection wears off the colours go back to normal). Perhaps chem sprayed components could reduce the effectiveness of the extinguisher, perhaps even negate it until the fire proofing wears off? Coupled with component debuffs (like slower engines, slower balloon ascending/descending, reduced rate of fire and/or weapon turning speed etc) this could introduce a nice high risk/high reward dynamic with the chem spray: do you hold-off fire damage entirely for x amount of time freeing up your engineers and deal with one massive almighty burst of accumlated fire when the chem spray expires or do you put the fires out immedieately as they appear, possibly impairing your crew and slowing repairs?

[Alistair MacBain]

The main problem was always that the hull died to fast to actually use the chem spray on most ships.
With the destroyed armor the buff was gone and when u got it back up u didnt had the time to spray again.
That is imo the main problem with the chem spray. The buff can be killed easy and then u dont have the time to get it back on.
With the new reduced instagib potential that might already be enough if the ext wouldnt have the 3 sec fire immunity inside aswell now.

[Spud Nick]

I find chem spray more useful in high level play when there are engineers that will run around the ship keeping the vitals sprayed. It's a tool that needs to be used constantly in order for it to work. Increasing the buff time would mean that engineers can focus on other tasks while still keeping the ship sprayed.