Author Topic: Please Make Gunners Useful  (Read 123514 times)

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #135 on: October 17, 2013, 01:59:08 pm »
Mortar benefits in theory from this ammo type.
But a good player will probably just time his shots and instagib any ship besides galleon.
You dont need a gunner if a gun can instagib an unarmored hull if its paired with a gatling.
The Pyra just needs 1 full gatling clip and 2 mortars shots to loose its hull armor.
6 more shots and it is dead. So why should i bring a gunner on a mortar if i can kill an enemy without a gunner this fast?

Offline The Djinn

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #136 on: October 17, 2013, 05:14:58 pm »
6 more shots and it is dead. So why should i bring a gunner on a mortar if i can kill an enemy without a gunner this fast?

In this theoretical case? Greased for rapid killing, Lesmok for extended range against ships that don't allow you to engage at close range.

Offline Gambrill

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #137 on: October 17, 2013, 05:17:30 pm »
Maybe give gunners 4 ammo slots? :D  BOOM! minds = BLOWN! :)

Offline The Djinn

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #138 on: October 17, 2013, 06:12:40 pm »
Maybe give gunners 4 ammo slots? :D  BOOM! minds = BLOWN! :)

But your gunner typically stays on 1-2 guns...so he really doesn't need a fourth ammo type.

Offline Van Manfred

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #139 on: October 18, 2013, 09:39:39 am »
I just flew over a few pages of this thread, so I don't know if this has been proposed, but here it is:

How about making all types of ammo more extreme? If the different ammo types had stronger effects and flaws, carrying more of them would really make the offensive shine.

PS: I am of the opinion that sometimes, a good offense is the best defense. When piloting a galleon and splitting my behind halfway to get a good good angle, I am glad there's a gunner downstairs who fixes a gun and blows the flaming bug away instead of repairing consistently breaking components ad infinitum.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 09:41:22 am by Van Manfred »

Offline Spud Nick

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #140 on: October 18, 2013, 10:39:46 am »
Gunners should have more tools other than ammo types.

Offline Thomas

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #141 on: October 19, 2013, 09:13:40 pm »
I know I'm arriving to this discussion late, and also am too lazy to read through 10 pages, but I can hazard a guess of what's been said; since it's been brought up a lot.

When talking about the usefulness/uselessness of a gunner, you have to compare them to an engineer. (As the pilot is just shy of useless on anything but the helm)

The benefits of the gunner is that they can bring more ammo types.
The downside is that they can bring less engineer equipment/


Obviously the gunner is supposed to be more useful shooting a gun than an engineer, where the engineer is supposed to be more useful keeping the ship healthy.


However, when it comes to being on the gun, a variety of ammo types doesn't always prove to be a benefit. Certainly they can help if various situations, such as being on a gatling and using heavy clip for those longer range shots, and greased or such when things get close. Maybe then hopping onto the mortar and using burst or charged, or whatever really. The gunner has that variety, while the engineer does not.

In most situations, you don't see a huge benefit from a variety of ammo types. In the above situation, you would do just as well (relatively) by sticking with heavy clip at range, then using the default at close range. The TTK (time to kill) would be pretty close. And as each player can only shoot one gun at a time, you generally have each person assigned to a gun. So one can use heavy clip on the gat, and the other can use burst or such on the mortar. The difference between having a gunner and an engineer on the same gun diminishes even more.


So while the engineer can shoot just as well as the gunner in most situations, the gunner can never replace an engineer when it comes to keeping the ship afloat. The pipe wrench is ok, but can't compare with a spanner/mallet combo. And then they can't put out fires. And if they can put out fires, they can't rebuild or repair. And if they bring a buff hammer, they might as well sit in the corner when things start going critical.





This brings us to the main difference between the gunner and engineer. The engineer can benefit from using multiple tools at a time on various components, but the gunner can only use one type of ammo on a gun at a time. ie: engineer can rebuild with the spanner then slap it with a mallet, then start buffing it for good measure.


You can see it in a lot of competitive matches as well, where some teams don't even bother with having a gunner. In most matches, the gunner just acts a placeholder, someone who's supposed to be using the gun most of the time and not worry as much about fixing. It's a way for random players to help solidify their roles on the ship without having a lengthy discussion about who's going to do what, where competitive teams are organized enough to where they don't have to bother with it if they don't want to.




Long story short....

My suggestion to make the gunner more useful would actually be to undo some of the more recent changes. In the early days, gunners had items like heavy gauntlets and modified triggers, items you could use without reloading the gun. I'd either changing some of the current items, or adding new ones in that can be used in conjunction with the different ammo types. This would give gunners a definite edge over engineers when it comes to gunning, without diminishing the engineers ability to gun. They'd only be able to use two items max (an ammo and an aid).

 Items could be like the old heavy gauntlets, or perhaps a modified scope to allow extra zoom, a small ammo box to give a little extra ammo (5% or so) on top of the ammo type addition/reduction, a small heatsink that reduces the chance of fire? Etc.

Offline Nidh

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #142 on: October 20, 2013, 01:00:16 am »
What if you could like, combine ammo types? <- crazy not serious suggestion but interesting thought

Offline Kriegson

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #143 on: October 24, 2013, 11:07:15 pm »
-snip-

 Items could be like the old heavy gauntlets, or perhaps a modified scope to allow extra zoom, a small ammo box to give a little extra ammo (5% or so) on top of the ammo type addition/reduction, a small heatsink that reduces the chance of fire? Etc.
This ^
Aids and ammunition would be an amazing boon to the gunner as a class, and finally give them a proper reason to be used again. Some ships might actually benefit from 2 gunners and 1 engie if gunners were able to more efficiently/effectively use weapons in a significant way compared to engineers.

I have an idea on how it could work too. Ammunition is used when you select the type on the gun. An aid could be used by selecting and "Activating" them while not on a gun. Effectively, they give you a buff towards X for an indefinite amount of time, if possible you could select them again or your wrench to turn them off (For binoculars for increased range for instance, which might become distracting while running around).

As for some ideas on aid items:

Heavy gauntlets (as mentioned)-
Increase accuracy but lower the speed in which you can turn the turret.

The ol girl's spirit-
Reduces the negative effects of damage on the weapon

Monoculars-
Zoom your vision and allow you to more easily spot enemies (hands free, but only while on turret) right click modifies zoom as normal, but at higher degrees.

hobnailed boots-
These savage boots allow you to batter your turrets into turning further than they normally can, but at the cost of some durability from abuse.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 11:13:46 pm by Kriegson »

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #144 on: October 25, 2013, 09:54:09 am »
This awfulness is never going to end is it...

Offline The Djinn

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #145 on: October 25, 2013, 10:33:21 am »
This awfulness is never going to end is it...

Never. IT IS ETERNAL.

Sadly.

Offline Thomas

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #146 on: October 25, 2013, 11:09:36 am »
After emailing them some suggestions, Muse took the time to respond (one of the reasons we love them so much). Part of the response was this:

"We have ideas for the gunner and engineer debate, which has always been hotly debated, but we are not ready to push the changes due to their complexity.  They're going to be new mechanics so we need to test them thoroughly."
-Muse



Offline Echoez

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #147 on: October 25, 2013, 12:25:49 pm »
This awfulness is never going to end is it...

Only when the Spire will be truly viable. :P


Offline Garou

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #148 on: October 25, 2013, 12:40:37 pm »
Only when the Spire will be truly viable. :P
To me Spire is a difficulty toggle. It's an expert-mode galleon xD

Offline Serenum

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Re: Please Make Gunners Useful
« Reply #149 on: October 25, 2013, 01:49:09 pm »
Fact of this issue is that there are very firm lines drawn for the sides that think gunners are less useful, and those like me who believe every ship is to have one. The topic of "making gunners useful" has been beat to death with no real solution, mostly because it's purely a matter of opinion.

I'm sorry you have to go through that to gun, as I'm sure you are proficient at it. It's more a community divide than an "issue" with gunners.

It's not really a matter of opinion, though.
When you are repairing, you HAVE to have the rigth tools, otherwise you just can't do some things, like putting out a fire, or rebuilding fast enough to survive sustained fire.

Meanwhile, most guns are prefectly ok with just one kind of special ammo, and even if you don't have the right kind of ammo, the gun can still fire and if the engineer is a good shot it won't really make much of a difference.

If we had to put gunning and engeneering on the same level then it would be something more along the lines of having to bring ammo for every gun and if you don't have the correct one then you can't shoot the gun.
Or vice versa, if engineering was like gunning it would be like having the option to buff/put out fires even without tools, just less efficently.
See what I mean?