Author Topic: Hwacha Tweek  (Read 70421 times)

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: Hwacha Tweek
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2013, 07:35:26 am »
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7*1,5=11,5

You mean 7*1.5=10.5 (so as Smollett said, almost 11 metres).

Offline Echoez

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Re: Hwacha Tweek
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2013, 08:45:46 am »
7 Meter (23 foot) AOE fact.  Hitting a shot within 7 meters will damage a heavy gun, it takes 5 rockets to destroy a heavy weapon and a hwacha with heavy clip has 15 shots. 

I understand that this is an emotional topic but at the end of the day this is an issue with the accuracy of the shooter not the aoe of the weapon.  The galleon's weapons are indeed closer than 7 meters apart and it's likely the shooter shot to the side of a weapon rather than directly between them.  The trigger need not be held down for long range shots and hitting out the guns of a galleon shouldn't be as simple as hitting the broadside of a barn.  Aiming should be required.

Hitting the side of the gun should still net a disable on both heavy guns, if the radius is indeed 7 meters, there is no way one heavy gun is wider than 7 meters not do the two heavy guns have more of a meter distance between them, which is why I don't realy see this 7 meter radius you speak of.

I'm not asking for an increase in AoE per se, I am asking that this weapon be made more reliable so I don't end up wasting 14 seconds of reload for almost nothing in return, I think that's a reasonable argument. The risk to use this weapon is currently too high with not much in return in most cases unless you're a monster with it OR you're face-hugging them and using Burst.

My main question was, why should I risk bringing this on a Goldfish when it's my only main gun and it has a severe 14 seconds cooldown and is not realy THAT reliable, cause as far as I know, unless you're damn good with the gun, long range shots are impossible, not only do I have to except my gunner to hit, but to hit correctly as well. That's my concern, why me as a pilot, should take this gun over anything else more reliable?

And my suggestion was mainly giving back some spread to Heavy Clip, despite the fact that I think the gun has problems of its own. If Heavy wasn't dead accurate and only gave an 85% spread reduction, it would make the gun a bit more reliable at range. Second suggestion was to decrease the over all spread of the gun a bit so the effective range of Burst rounds is increased and to be honest, I don't realy mind this, but I generaly believe that the more guns that don't completely rely on Heavy for anything other than face-hugging situations (150-100 meters), the better the game becomes.

Also just as a reminder, I don't want to buff the Hwacha, just make it more reliable to use so I don't get those flip-flop shots that Imagine talked about in an earlier post, some shots net amazing disables, while others that are still spot on, do absolutely nothing or only disable 1 or 2 things at most (and before you assume that most parts were destroyed, that was not the case)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 08:55:34 am by Echoez »

Offline Spud Nick

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Re: Hwacha Tweek
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2013, 09:42:50 am »
I find it strange that this gun needs heavy clip ammo in order for it to hit at long range. I can't think of any other long range gun that needs to use one type of ammo for it to be effective at range.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Hwacha Tweek
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2013, 09:51:05 am »
I think it's because the hwacha wasn't really designed to do so in the first place. If heavy clip gave you 100% efficiency out of the gun at the range it lets you hit, id say that was OP.

No offence to you Echo, but this is why I find it hard to sympathize with hwacha changes to make it better at range. I don't think it should be any more effective than it is now when using heavy to hit at ranges any other ammo type simply would fail to allow.

Offline Echoez

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Re: Hwacha Tweek
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2013, 10:39:30 am »
I think it's because the hwacha wasn't really designed to do so in the first place. If heavy clip gave you 100% efficiency out of the gun at the range it lets you hit, id say that was OP.

No offence to you Echo, but this is why I find it hard to sympathize with hwacha changes to make it better at range. I don't think it should be any more effective than it is now when using heavy to hit at ranges any other ammo type simply would fail to allow.

The thing is, Heavy's puspose is just that, making an inaccurate weapon effective at range and it works exactly like this for any other gun that utilizes except the Hwacha. Carronades don't care about spread, Gatling doesn't care either, these are guns that target single components per shot, the Hwacha is probably the only one that gets a double downside from Heavy clip from both losing 5 rockets and having absolutely no spread to its shots to hit more components per volley withouth taking a year to empy the clip by burst firing.

Heavy Clip is a double edged sword for the Hwacha while while not having the same apply for other guns that utilize it is where I'm getting at. I personaly believe it shouldn't be like this, hence why I want some spread back, I don't get why it's so hard to agree with something like this, it's clear, obvious and the only counter argument anyone has managed to come up so far is that it's a matter of my or anyone's gunner being bad, which is very undermining to the person that actually fired and gun and actully HIT his/her volleys only to net a single disable.

Don't go around calling people bad shots when it's the design that's flawed, we might not all be gods of the Hwacha, but if everyone has to be considered something like this to be allowed to properly disable at least semi-consistently with this gun, then I wonder if this gun is actually worth general usage.




Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Hwacha Tweek
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2013, 11:04:54 am »
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The thing is, Heavy's puspose is just that, making an inaccurate weapon effective at range and it works exactly like this for any other gun that utilizes except the Hwacha. Carronades don't care about spread, Gatling doesn't care either, these are guns that target single components per shot, the Hwacha is probably the only one that gets a double downside from Heavy clip from both losing 5 rockets and having absolutely no spread to its shots to hit more components per volley withouth taking a year to empy the clip by burst firing.

You lose 5 rockets to gain the ability to hit something at its maximum range. It then gives you perfect (in the game's logic) accuracy in order to land those shots. If I was to disable one gun at maximum range that could also hit me but now cant due to my shot, I've been successful. This is my perspective for long range hwacha fighting.

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Heavy Clip is a double edged sword for the Hwacha while while not having the same apply for other guns that utilize it is where I'm getting at. I personaly believe it shouldn't be like this, hence why I want some spread back, I don't get why it's so hard to agree with something like this, it's clear, obvious and the only counter argument anyone has managed to come up so far is that it's a matter of my or anyone's gunner being bad, which is very undermining to the person that actually fired and gun and actully HIT his/her volleys only to net a single disable.

While you may personally see it that way, I, and im assuming others, do not and this is why we have this debate. I see it gaining the same pro/con as other guns that utilize heavy to achieve something. In the case of hwacha, you lose 5 rockets, thus less disable power and damage, but gain the ability to shoot someone, and still disable something, at its maximum range. Its a hwacha's lesmok in essence.

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Don't go around calling people bad shots when it's the design that's flawed, we might not all be gods of the Hwacha, but if everyone has to be considered something like this to be allowed to properly disable at least semi-consistently with this gun, then I wonder if this gun is actually worth general usage.

Im not sure if this was targeted at me or not, but I never called you or your gunners bad shots. You are adamant in your belief that the gun is flawed, when others simply don't think so and cant really counter you without coming across at "you need to shoot it differently."

My short answer is that I will always fail to grasp your concept of adding spread to get more accurate. I say it in the nicest tone I can on the internet.

Offline geggis

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Re: Hwacha Tweek
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2013, 11:16:14 am »
I don't see why you can't spread your shots around manually if you've got heavy clip loaded though. You can't tighten your shots up without heavy clip but you can totally loosen them up with heavy clip. You don't have to fire a salvo into one localised spot. That's like complaining that greased rounds fire too quickly when you can always ease off on the trigger. Spread your shots around focusing on different components. How far away are you talking here Echoez because I totally appreciate this being difficult at extreme distances but the Hwacha doesn't seem cut out for that kind of range. It can handle long ranges, sure, but not optimally which makes sense to me given the LJ and Flak's effective ranges.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 11:20:12 am by geggis »

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: Hwacha Tweek
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2013, 11:22:01 am »
There's no longer accurate publicly available data that lists the correct hwacha aoe, so you'll have to trust me that it's 7 meters; but I can absolutely guarantee that it is. 

There are also many reasons that a hwacha barrage could take out one gun on the side of the galleon and not the other; ie he nailed only 5 shots on gun but one gunner repaired mid volley, he nailed 4 shots on gun but pulled the rest way to the side etc etc

I agree unless you're a very good hwacha gunner max range shots are difficult to achieve full disables with; when I take a hwacha fish in pub matches or even when I take a hwacha in competitive play I'll often ask my gunners to hold fire until I say so.  This way I can achieve the optimal range for a heavy clip hwacha based on my quary as well as stabilize the ship so my gunners shots predictably fall where they aim.

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: Hwacha Tweek
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2013, 11:25:24 am »
Does anyone else keep reading "Hwacha Twerk" like I keep on doing?
Thanks  Sammy, now I have the mental picture of a large black woman shaking her butt while standing on the front gun of my goldfish stuck in my head. In combination with Lord Dick Tim's "Sensual Whale Noises" I am going to need some therapy.

Offline Nidh

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Re: Hwacha Tweek
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2013, 11:26:15 am »
More spread on heavy clip won't make it more accurate, just more forgiving. Also the amount of screen shake makes it even harder to aim effectively, you'd need to move it around by 5~ pixels which is pretty hard to keep under control. If the hwacha wasn't meant to use heavy clip and disable at mid-longe range, why does it have such a ridiculously long shell life? It SHOULD out class the Artemis, right?

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Hwacha Tweek
« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2013, 11:30:56 am »
I don't shoot often, so I'll have to take your word the screen shake is high. If so, I can't see lowering it being an issue.

Comparing the hwacha to an artemis is....well frankly I cant do it. They disable in two very opposite ways.

Offline Echoez

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Re: Hwacha Tweek
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2013, 11:35:31 am »
Quote
Don't go around calling people bad shots when it's the design that's flawed, we might not all be gods of the Hwacha, but if everyone has to be considered something like this to be allowed to properly disable at least semi-consistently with this gun, then I wonder if this gun is actually worth general usage.

Im not sure if this was targeted at me or not, but I never called you or your gunners bad shots. You are adamant in your belief that the gun is flawed, when others simply don't think so and cant really counter you without coming across at "you need to shoot it differently."

My short answer is that I will always fail to grasp your concept of adding spread to get more accurate. I say it in the nicest tone I can on the internet.

No no that was not aimmed at you personaly, my mistake there, should have pointed it out. ^^

The concept is relatively simple.. well in my head at least, when you have a gun that needs to hit multiple targets, it's only natural you don't want all of your rounds to go into the same place unless they have a large enough AoE to destroy all targets by just hitting a single place, but since having a gigantic AoE at that range would be, quite frankly, ridiculous, I want to have some spread back in order for the gun to be more effective.

It used to be like this in 1.2, I don't see why it shouldn't be the same now as well, the gun was fine and balanced just like this.


There's no longer accurate publicly available data that lists the correct hwacha aoe, so you'll have to trust me that it's 7 meters; but I can absolutely guarantee that it is. 

There are also many reasons that a hwacha barrage could take out one gun on the side of the galleon and not the other; ie he nailed only 5 shots on gun but one gunner repaired mid volley, he nailed 4 shots on gun but pulled the rest way to the side etc etc

I agree unless you're a very good hwacha gunner max range shots are difficult to achieve full disables with; when I take a hwacha fish in pub matches or even when I take a hwacha in competitive play I'll often ask my gunners to hold fire until I say so.  This way I can achieve the optimal range for a heavy clip hwacha based on my quary as well as stabilize the ship so my gunners shots predictably fall where they aim.

If they realy are 7 meters long then I suspect some hitbox madness was up to something then, I still find it hard to believe after playing with it lately, but this is exactly the unreliability that I'm talking about, it's already very hard to hit at max range.

Zill, you said that Heavy clip's up/downs are good but I'll have to disagree, this gun along with many other guns in this game have an indicated range that is much, MUCH longer than their 'real' effective range without Heavy Clip (Which for most inaccurate guns is under 200 or 300 meters), I find this is flawed by design, I would much much more prefer my gun be accurate at it's max range anyway so I can play with other ammo types than being forced to use one just so I can hit a bloody thing and then have those max ranges adjusted accordingly.

To me, when the gun's indicated range is 1200 or so meters, I should have the power to use the gun at to at least 100-75% power output, especially considering how risky this particular gun is.

More spread on heavy clip won't make it more accurate, just more forgiving. Also the amount of screen shake makes it even harder to aim effectively, you'd need to move it around by 5~ pixels which is pretty hard to keep under control. If the hwacha wasn't meant to use heavy clip and disable at mid-longe range, why does it have such a ridiculously long shell life? It SHOULD out class the Artemis, right?

And Nidh actually ninja's me while I was writing my post.

Yes, making this gun more forgiving is what I want anyway, not to boost its efficiency, cause it has efficiency, but it is overshadowed by the strict unforgiveness of the gun, aka, it's not as reliable if it's not as forgiving.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: Hwacha Tweek
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2013, 11:42:40 am »
Probably shouldn't be fueling this flame but I really agree with what Zill was saying earlier and I actually feel heavy clips tradeoffs and bonuses are well balanced with the hwacha now.

Offline Nidh

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Re: Hwacha Tweek
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2013, 11:42:57 am »
I don't shoot often, so I'll have to take your word the screen shake is high. If so, I can't see lowering it being an issue.

Comparing the hwacha to an artemis is....well frankly I cant do it. They disable in two very opposite ways.

Err, the hwacha isn't the heavy version of the Artemis? They hit components and the components get destroyed... I don't see how they're any different, except maybe one can shoot more rockets at a time.

Offline geggis

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Re: Hwacha Tweek
« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2013, 11:53:29 am »
The hwacha is for blanket firing though, not surgical shots like the artemis. It's a mass disabler.

I don't understand the reason for wanting more spread when you can spread shots yourself with heavy clip loaded. With heavy clip you control where your shots go, that's the point; you're not at the whim of random jitter over distance.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 12:00:16 pm by geggis »