Author Topic: Spire Discussion.  (Read 18097 times)

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Spire Discussion.
« on: June 14, 2013, 09:36:26 am »
Based on recent ship balance posts, I'm making this so it keeps that thread tidy. Feel free to discuss what it might or might not need.

Offline Ofiach

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Re: Spire Discussion.
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2013, 09:50:21 am »
The spire blows. It's only good when the enemy captains aren't coordinating. Any other time its 5 free kills and GG.

Offline Parkourwalrus

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Re: Spire Discussion.
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2013, 10:04:01 am »
The spire is a weak support  ship, which seem to outnumber bawlers and snipers nowadays. The goldfish disables baloons or guns, the galleon is an area denial ship, can be a sniper though, finally, the squid is for harrassment to support other ships. The only decent brawlers are pyra and junker, and the only good snipers are pyra and galleon if your gunners/gungineers are flak gods. This is a problem. The pyra is just too versatile as a sniper to make spire useful alongside it.  I have two suggestions, one is to replace the left bottom gun with a medium gun, and rotate it left a bit. This keeps it a support ship as it is hard to trifecta but makes it more versatile in a support role. The second is to keep the left side gun, but move it back ant rotate it right. This allows the hull engi to get in some shots while still being close to hull in a merc duel. The added fire concentration helps the spire quickly snipe stronger ships out of the sky as long as they have a good flak gunner.

Offline Echoez

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Re: Spire Discussion.
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2013, 11:34:51 am »
So what do we know about the Spire:

PROs:

1. Second fastest turning rate, only slower than a Squid.
2. Can equip a medium gun.
3. Can get either a close or long range trifecta very easily depending on the loadout.
4. Vertical hull means a more slender broadside.

CONs:

1. Only faster than a Galleon and only marginaly so.
2. Extremely fragile hull and armor.
3. Components are way too exposed and clumped up.
4. Slender broadside off set by a massive vertical hull
5. Vertical hull also makes it harder to navigate on some maps
6. Its balloon is a massive lumberjack bait, only eclipsed by the Galleon's balloons.


There might be more, but let's start with this.

It's a glass cannon and that's being nice to it cause even glass breaks harder than a Spire and it hurts more when you break it. It's sniper capabilities are outclassed by a Pyramidion and a Galleon and its close range capabilities are outclassed by the Goldfish or the Squid, which are at least smaller and nimbler so they can easily get in and out of fights close range.

So the Spire is quite litteraly a stick, stuck in the middle of nowhere. There is nothing it can do that other ships don't already accomplish even more effectively unless your enemies aren't coordinated.

After thinking about it for some time, I realy believe the Spire should just be bulkier, it's hull is pretty massive and has a giant shield up front, so why not tankier? Making it faster wouldn't solve any problem cause it is already difficult to navigate it due to its vertical hull on any map that isn't dunes and other ships would still be faster, especialy its arch-nemesis, the Bullmidion.

So yeah. What do?

PS: Dammit Zill, I was supposed to start the 'Buff the Spire' crusade! ; n;
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 11:39:55 am by EchoLG »

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: Spire Discussion.
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2013, 12:58:36 pm »
I look at the Spire as a Goldfish with more fire power and more target area. Having a forward facing main gun, it can out do the Goldfish in a strait slugging match. It is not in the same category as the Galleon since it can control distance while fighting. Unfortunately since the explosive damage vs hull armor reduction you are not seeing as many Goldfish in the skies.

If the spire had more armor I could see it easily taking over the roll of the Pyramidion as the brawler's ship of choice. It is significantly easier and more effective to get a Spire trifecta than a Pyramidion trifecta. At brawling range nobody misses, and the faster turning speed would be nice against those slippery little squids.

I am not fond of the Spire as a sniper platform since the Junker and the Galleon can both outperform it if they are also set up for that roll. I see success of sniper Spires more an artifact of the other team not coming equipped to deal with the threat, than the Spire's superiority in the roll.

Offline Echoez

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Re: Spire Discussion.
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2013, 01:04:44 pm »
I am not fond of the Spire as a sniper platform since the Junker and the Galleon can both outperform it if they are also set up for that roll. I see success of sniper Spires more an artifact of the other team not coming equipped to deal with the threat, than the Spire's superiority in the roll.

The Sniper Spire has the same problem any sniping platform has and that's the Mercury gun, any ship fit with one of these will take down a sniper Spire, cause their gun will be kept disabled and your pityful hull wiped along with it, funny thing being the Mercury will keep eatting into a Spire's perma hull since it's so weak. Basically, a Mercury will keep any big sniper weapon disabled, including the Galleon's weapons so I think that's more to do with the gun than the Spire.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 01:10:15 pm by EchoLG »

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Spire Discussion.
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2013, 01:34:12 pm »
Quote
PS: Dammit Zill, I was supposed to start the 'Buff the Spire' crusade! ; n;

Funny you say that, cause I proposed buffing it back in the old forums. It's size doesn't represent its armor/hull stats well at all.

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: Spire Discussion.
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2013, 01:38:05 pm »
Galleons have more guns to break than the spire, thus it is hard for single merc to pin an entire ship's weapons down. Even double merc has a hard time keeping a galleon's big guns silent. Plus with the beefier hull the galleon's engineers are less stressed and can focus on returning fire.

I still love a sniper Junker, its wafer thin hull makes a mockery of counter merc fire from all but the best of gunners.

Getting back to the original point, I think the devs walk a very fine line with the Spire. It currently sits on the very verge of being OP. If the devs give it too big a buff it would unbalance the entire system they have created.  For example imagine if they had made the left facing light gun the now with the 45 degree tilt and put the hull repair component closer to the main gun. It would be a Pyramidion style brawler with a medium cannon. All brawler Pyra pilots would switch to it and the only reason to fly a pyra would be to use double mercs against the metaspires as you back out of combat.

Perhaps that was an exaggeration.

Offline Echoez

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Re: Spire Discussion.
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2013, 01:55:03 pm »
Funny you say that, cause I proposed buffing it back in the old forums. It's size doesn't represent its armor/hull stats well at all.

I wasn't in the old forums tho..

and no matter what loadout, the point still remains, the Spire is not durable enough to fit a close range build and not fast enough to be a sniper. It just has many guns on it that can face forward and that's not that great of an advantage to bring on any team (no matter how many ships) compared to bringing an actual fighting ship or if you realy need long range, a Galleon or a Junker/Pyra fit for that job, heck even a Flak/Lumber Fish can do it.

Offline Moo

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Re: Spire Discussion.
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2013, 02:23:55 pm »
These two posts. Poor bottom-deck engineer is stuck with a very important but very uninteresting job of keeping the hull and engines up. Not being able to see forward from here doesn't help (there was another post mentioning this but I can't find it). With how squishy the Spire is, even a quick trip to rebuild the main gun can mean a sudden death, so basically moving off that bottom deck during combat is risky. Yes, if you are sniping, he can help on the top deck guns (the front left one is at too strange a position and angle to really be useful), but being able to shoot without being shot back is a luxury you won't often have when facing decent opposition.
I'm not sure how it could be improved though really. Adding an extra gun facing backwards on the bottom deck perhaps, but may be considered "too good"? Maybe move the front left gun to the bottom deck instead? But backwards-facing guns rarely get much use anyway, especially when the captain has tar, so it may not help much...

Offline shadowsteel

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Re: Spire Discussion.
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2013, 02:35:52 pm »
What if the Spire's balloon had more health than other ships?

Then hydrogen (which is almost always necessary) wouldn't kill the balloon as much and sort of defend against it being a big ol' lumber target.

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: Spire Discussion.
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2013, 04:05:17 pm »
The Spire is pretty much a Goldfish with much less speed, a bigger target area, one extra front gun (the 45° was nifty at first, but it hasn't been that good, especially after the Artemis was brutally murdered), and much, much, much less bulk. A single Pyra ram with kerosene is often enough to kill it. The main engi can't spend more than a couple of seconds away from the hull. It's outmatched in sniping by the Galleon, and without any bulk it can't pull off a hwacha build the same way a Goldfish can.

Quote
PS: Dammit Zill, I was supposed to start the 'Buff the Spire' crusade! ; n;

Funny you say that, cause I proposed buffing it back in the old forums. It's size doesn't represent its armor/hull stats well at all.

You wanted it to have as much bulk as the Galleon. A bit overkill :P

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Spire Discussion.
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2013, 04:24:18 pm »
Quote
You wanted it to have as much bulk as the Galleon. A bit overkill :P

Well in my defense, the guns weren't modified back then, and it's taller then a galleon. I just don't think glass cannons have a place in goio. I do like the concept, but in gameplay it just breaks.

With as big a target as it is, it needs a way to survive. Even if it's like a junker with a high armor to hull (or even vice versa) ratio, that might help. Id like to see it fill a role much like the galleon does, just in its own Spire-like way.

Offline Echoez

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Re: Spire Discussion.
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2013, 04:29:11 pm »
The problem with making it bulkier is that you risk making it a better brawler than the Pyra/Junker if you step in their territory of tankiness since it can have a light and a heavy weapon pointed on an enemy and if it's not at bulky as these two, then how much? Like a Goldfish? What would be the use of a Goldfish then since it already is basically a Goldie with light guns pointing at front as well? The Goldie is smaller and faster, but wouldn't a bulkier ship that can also strip armor be more beneficial than it? and then you go to Galleon bulk levels which the Spire should not have under no circumstances.

I propose to have the hull be fixable very quickly just like the Squid, so just a few spanner strokes are enough to bring it back. This wouldn't give it raw tankiness, but it would allow it to semi-tank like the Squid and it would be up to the pilot to matador incoming rams, which is doable, making it overall more survivable cause I can't see how can you buff its armor directly without having it step into other ships' territories. A buff to turning rate would be cool as well.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Spire Discussion.
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2013, 04:39:49 pm »
Well if they did up the bulk of the Spire, then i'd expect the top right gun to be put back at it's original angle. It wouldn't have the maneuverability of the smaller boats (more mass) yet still be better than a galleon.

It's probably my failed vision of the Spire being the Galleon alternative, but that's what I've always wanted it to be. Less guns, more turning, still awkward to fit into certain areas, still less bulk, but not so less that a pyra can just poke it across a map.