Guns Of Icarus Online

Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: RearAdmiralZill on June 14, 2013, 09:36:26 am

Title: Spire Discussion.
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on June 14, 2013, 09:36:26 am
Based on recent ship balance posts, I'm making this so it keeps that thread tidy. Feel free to discuss what it might or might not need.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Ofiach on June 14, 2013, 09:50:21 am
The spire blows. It's only good when the enemy captains aren't coordinating. Any other time its 5 free kills and GG.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Parkourwalrus on June 14, 2013, 10:04:01 am
The spire is a weak support  ship, which seem to outnumber bawlers and snipers nowadays. The goldfish disables baloons or guns, the galleon is an area denial ship, can be a sniper though, finally, the squid is for harrassment to support other ships. The only decent brawlers are pyra and junker, and the only good snipers are pyra and galleon if your gunners/gungineers are flak gods. This is a problem. The pyra is just too versatile as a sniper to make spire useful alongside it.  I have two suggestions, one is to replace the left bottom gun with a medium gun, and rotate it left a bit. This keeps it a support ship as it is hard to trifecta but makes it more versatile in a support role. The second is to keep the left side gun, but move it back ant rotate it right. This allows the hull engi to get in some shots while still being close to hull in a merc duel. The added fire concentration helps the spire quickly snipe stronger ships out of the sky as long as they have a good flak gunner.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Echoez on June 14, 2013, 11:34:51 am
So what do we know about the Spire:


1. Second fastest turning rate, only slower than a Squid.
2. Can equip a medium gun.
3. Can get either a close or long range trifecta very easily depending on the loadout.
4. Vertical hull means a more slender broadside.


1. Only faster than a Galleon and only marginaly so.
2. Extremely fragile hull and armor.
3. Components are way too exposed and clumped up.
4. Slender broadside off set by a massive vertical hull
5. Vertical hull also makes it harder to navigate on some maps
6. Its balloon is a massive lumberjack bait, only eclipsed by the Galleon's balloons.

There might be more, but let's start with this.

It's a glass cannon and that's being nice to it cause even glass breaks harder than a Spire and it hurts more when you break it. It's sniper capabilities are outclassed by a Pyramidion and a Galleon and its close range capabilities are outclassed by the Goldfish or the Squid, which are at least smaller and nimbler so they can easily get in and out of fights close range.

So the Spire is quite litteraly a stick, stuck in the middle of nowhere. There is nothing it can do that other ships don't already accomplish even more effectively unless your enemies aren't coordinated.

After thinking about it for some time, I realy believe the Spire should just be bulkier, it's hull is pretty massive and has a giant shield up front, so why not tankier? Making it faster wouldn't solve any problem cause it is already difficult to navigate it due to its vertical hull on any map that isn't dunes and other ships would still be faster, especialy its arch-nemesis, the Bullmidion.

So yeah. What do?

PS: Dammit Zill, I was supposed to start the 'Buff the Spire' crusade! ; n;
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: HamsterIV on June 14, 2013, 12:58:36 pm
I look at the Spire as a Goldfish with more fire power and more target area. Having a forward facing main gun, it can out do the Goldfish in a strait slugging match. It is not in the same category as the Galleon since it can control distance while fighting. Unfortunately since the explosive damage vs hull armor reduction you are not seeing as many Goldfish in the skies.

If the spire had more armor I could see it easily taking over the roll of the Pyramidion as the brawler's ship of choice. It is significantly easier and more effective to get a Spire trifecta than a Pyramidion trifecta. At brawling range nobody misses, and the faster turning speed would be nice against those slippery little squids.

I am not fond of the Spire as a sniper platform since the Junker and the Galleon can both outperform it if they are also set up for that roll. I see success of sniper Spires more an artifact of the other team not coming equipped to deal with the threat, than the Spire's superiority in the roll.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Echoez on June 14, 2013, 01:04:44 pm
I am not fond of the Spire as a sniper platform since the Junker and the Galleon can both outperform it if they are also set up for that roll. I see success of sniper Spires more an artifact of the other team not coming equipped to deal with the threat, than the Spire's superiority in the roll.

The Sniper Spire has the same problem any sniping platform has and that's the Mercury gun, any ship fit with one of these will take down a sniper Spire, cause their gun will be kept disabled and your pityful hull wiped along with it, funny thing being the Mercury will keep eatting into a Spire's perma hull since it's so weak. Basically, a Mercury will keep any big sniper weapon disabled, including the Galleon's weapons so I think that's more to do with the gun than the Spire.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on June 14, 2013, 01:34:12 pm
PS: Dammit Zill, I was supposed to start the 'Buff the Spire' crusade! ; n;

Funny you say that, cause I proposed buffing it back in the old forums. It's size doesn't represent its armor/hull stats well at all.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: HamsterIV on June 14, 2013, 01:38:05 pm
Galleons have more guns to break than the spire, thus it is hard for single merc to pin an entire ship's weapons down. Even double merc has a hard time keeping a galleon's big guns silent. Plus with the beefier hull the galleon's engineers are less stressed and can focus on returning fire.

I still love a sniper Junker, its wafer thin hull makes a mockery of counter merc fire from all but the best of gunners.

Getting back to the original point, I think the devs walk a very fine line with the Spire. It currently sits on the very verge of being OP. If the devs give it too big a buff it would unbalance the entire system they have created.  For example imagine if they had made the left facing light gun the now with the 45 degree tilt and put the hull repair component closer to the main gun. It would be a Pyramidion style brawler with a medium cannon. All brawler Pyra pilots would switch to it and the only reason to fly a pyra would be to use double mercs against the metaspires as you back out of combat.

Perhaps that was an exaggeration.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Echoez on June 14, 2013, 01:55:03 pm
Funny you say that, cause I proposed buffing it back in the old forums. It's size doesn't represent its armor/hull stats well at all.

I wasn't in the old forums tho..

and no matter what loadout, the point still remains, the Spire is not durable enough to fit a close range build and not fast enough to be a sniper. It just has many guns on it that can face forward and that's not that great of an advantage to bring on any team (no matter how many ships) compared to bringing an actual fighting ship or if you realy need long range, a Galleon or a Junker/Pyra fit for that job, heck even a Flak/Lumber Fish can do it.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Moo on June 14, 2013, 02:23:55 pm
These two posts (,36.msg12378.html#msg12378). Poor bottom-deck engineer is stuck with a very important but very uninteresting job of keeping the hull and engines up. Not being able to see forward from here doesn't help (there was another post mentioning this but I can't find it). With how squishy the Spire is, even a quick trip to rebuild the main gun can mean a sudden death, so basically moving off that bottom deck during combat is risky. Yes, if you are sniping, he can help on the top deck guns (the front left one is at too strange a position and angle to really be useful), but being able to shoot without being shot back is a luxury you won't often have when facing decent opposition.
I'm not sure how it could be improved though really. Adding an extra gun facing backwards on the bottom deck perhaps, but may be considered "too good"? Maybe move the front left gun to the bottom deck instead? But backwards-facing guns rarely get much use anyway, especially when the captain has tar, so it may not help much...
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: shadowsteel on June 14, 2013, 02:35:52 pm
What if the Spire's balloon had more health than other ships?

Then hydrogen (which is almost always necessary) wouldn't kill the balloon as much and sort of defend against it being a big ol' lumber target.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: N-Sunderland on June 14, 2013, 04:05:17 pm
The Spire is pretty much a Goldfish with much less speed, a bigger target area, one extra front gun (the 45° was nifty at first, but it hasn't been that good, especially after the Artemis was brutally murdered), and much, much, much less bulk. A single Pyra ram with kerosene is often enough to kill it. The main engi can't spend more than a couple of seconds away from the hull. It's outmatched in sniping by the Galleon, and without any bulk it can't pull off a hwacha build the same way a Goldfish can.

PS: Dammit Zill, I was supposed to start the 'Buff the Spire' crusade! ; n;

Funny you say that, cause I proposed buffing it back in the old forums. It's size doesn't represent its armor/hull stats well at all.

You wanted it to have as much bulk as the Galleon. A bit overkill :P
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on June 14, 2013, 04:24:18 pm
You wanted it to have as much bulk as the Galleon. A bit overkill :P

Well in my defense, the guns weren't modified back then, and it's taller then a galleon. I just don't think glass cannons have a place in goio. I do like the concept, but in gameplay it just breaks.

With as big a target as it is, it needs a way to survive. Even if it's like a junker with a high armor to hull (or even vice versa) ratio, that might help. Id like to see it fill a role much like the galleon does, just in its own Spire-like way.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Echoez on June 14, 2013, 04:29:11 pm
The problem with making it bulkier is that you risk making it a better brawler than the Pyra/Junker if you step in their territory of tankiness since it can have a light and a heavy weapon pointed on an enemy and if it's not at bulky as these two, then how much? Like a Goldfish? What would be the use of a Goldfish then since it already is basically a Goldie with light guns pointing at front as well? The Goldie is smaller and faster, but wouldn't a bulkier ship that can also strip armor be more beneficial than it? and then you go to Galleon bulk levels which the Spire should not have under no circumstances.

I propose to have the hull be fixable very quickly just like the Squid, so just a few spanner strokes are enough to bring it back. This wouldn't give it raw tankiness, but it would allow it to semi-tank like the Squid and it would be up to the pilot to matador incoming rams, which is doable, making it overall more survivable cause I can't see how can you buff its armor directly without having it step into other ships' territories. A buff to turning rate would be cool as well.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on June 14, 2013, 04:39:49 pm
Well if they did up the bulk of the Spire, then i'd expect the top right gun to be put back at it's original angle. It wouldn't have the maneuverability of the smaller boats (more mass) yet still be better than a galleon.

It's probably my failed vision of the Spire being the Galleon alternative, but that's what I've always wanted it to be. Less guns, more turning, still awkward to fit into certain areas, still less bulk, but not so less that a pyra can just poke it across a map.

Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Chrinus on June 14, 2013, 05:40:17 pm
A small note for this discussion. I believe this was mentioned in its parent thread as well, but Qwerty also has mentioned it in one of his streams.. I somewhat agree with the idea as well.

A large part of the spire's weakness is how many strikes are needed to repair the hull armor. We could tune that down and make it able to rebuild in say 2/3's of the time. Like the heavy ship equivalent of the squid... easy to strip armor, but easy to rebuild as well (within reason, of course). It'd be able to tank somewhat with constant hull supervision at the cost of her light guns basically.

Anyhow just a reiteration, carry on folks.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Echoez on June 14, 2013, 08:46:50 pm
I'd like to know if the devs have any plans regarding the Spire at least, so a dev post about that matter would be most welcome.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Zormac on June 16, 2013, 05:36:43 pm
Last I heard, there were no plans. Which is a shame, really, since the Spire could really use an upgrade. It seems to have been forsaken.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Sammy B. T. on June 16, 2013, 09:52:24 pm
A spire's armor takes more time to rebuild than a goldfish and unlike a goldfish, there is no easy way to quickly put an extra engineer on it.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: N-Sunderland on June 16, 2013, 10:01:22 pm
Exactly. It takes hits like a sheet of wet toilet paper.

Just for reference, I'd consider the Squid a 1 inch-thick piece of wood.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Letus on June 16, 2013, 11:06:54 pm
The hull armour is strong enough to make the pipewrench noneffective, but weak enough that the mallet is also noneffective...

You either fight repairs...or get killed in a cooldown...
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Sonoskay on June 17, 2013, 01:09:49 am
Well... i dont know if this would work exactly... but one of the biggest issues i can see with the spire is even though it has a great turning speed its still fairly easy to flank. just getting behind it is a near death sentence.. SO maybe by buffing the turning speed... or This is an off the wall idea a bit but.. adding a light gun to the rear. Idealy a disable gun to take the heat off its rear a bit.

Though zills idea to make it galleon like is an apealing one. I would like a good tank alternitive to the galleon. I hate the galleon but would like to pilot a big ol meaty ship.

Another idea maybe is to add a Long range  medium gun that exelce at sniping...  Somthing more Reliable  than the Flak or lumberjack, somthing that needs the help from the other 2 guns in its trifecta.   though i think adding a gun like this may just add more power to the snipeing galleon.

I'm no pro and i dont know the spire that well.. Im just spitballing ideas that it seems not many have brought up yet..
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Echoez on June 17, 2013, 11:07:51 am
You know, the Spire works just like a tower does ( no pun intended ), it's best used when it just stands there and deals out punishment.

The problem is, it's not nearly enough as durable as a tower should be and there are realy no guns to support the glass cannon role it's supposed to take except the Lumberjack, which is the only gun that can deal significant ammounts of damage to both balloon and hull armor and keep firing.

I do not consider the Heavy Flak or the Hwacha fit for a glass cannon simply enough cause they do not deal nearly enough armor damage, hence, you can't take down your enemy before he does, which is the glass cannon's role and they are used better on other ships. I am assuming equal player skill for the sake of balance.

Maybe we will see the Spire used more if some other heavy weapon that fits thes glass cannon role will be released since there are no plans to change it yet.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Zenark on June 17, 2013, 12:30:02 pm
What I like about the Spire is that even though a Galleon has an extra heavy weapon on its side, a Spire can approach an enemy in a straight line while still firing on it.

I like the easier to rebuild armor idea, or just any armor/hull buff. Comparing it to the Goldfish is silly in terms of maneuverability. A Spire, in my opinion, should have better armor/hull than a Goldfish since the fishy is so much faster. As for its brawling capabilities, a Pyramidion and Junker also have better maneuverability. In a one on one fight, even if a Spire has an upper hand if its buffed, it certainly is not going to be as versatile as the other ships (in a point match, for instance).

I think the Spire should be the best ship of its role, while being weaker in others.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: HamsterIV on June 17, 2013, 12:51:08 pm
I would like to see more ships in the galleon class but I don't think the spire belongs there. Attacking a Galleon is about trying to use speed and positioning to negate its superior firepower. The spire has sufficient maneuverability and gun placement that it can not be approached in the same way a Galleon is approached. Also the Spire can control engagement distance better than a Galleon giving its attackers less options in how they engage it.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Zenark on June 18, 2013, 01:54:53 pm
What about making it a bit shorter? I mean, I know it's supposed to be tower-like but the long spikes on the bottom are just ascetic, right? This wouldn't be a massive change, but it would help it's survivability against mortars and make it a bit more agile.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Crafeksterty on June 18, 2013, 02:54:30 pm
Ive been playing with the spire for some time and, the thing is. You play as a glass cannon, dont try to repair until the threat is dealt with.

But one miss with a shot like the flak is just so dangerous that the spire being squishy makes missing a total and utter failure. Which makes the glasscannon aspect of the spire, not so glasscannony when the other ships can just get close and shoot you.

The thing is, it is slender and it has very little uses of it being slender. A strafe option (Hilarious enough) would do the spire what it needs. But sense all ships work as something similar. It needs a quick turn speed and good acceleration  when moving or going up and down. Does not need speed boost, or vertical speed boost. But acceleration boost. As soon as the captain aims to go forward, the ship goes in that speed quickly.

Making the spire easy to meneuver with despite being slow is what it needs. Then, maps like the labyrinth, canyon ambush is its best friend. Same with turning speed.
It needs to look around real fast, and when it does manage to do a meneuver, needs to have an eye on its target.

Acceleration and Turning speed is what it needs in my oppinion.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Plasmarobo on June 18, 2013, 03:58:27 pm
I think maps like Labyrinth and Canyon are super dangerous to a spire!
I'm getting to the point where it's pretty easy to navigate the various obstacles, even in a Pyra. Sure I have bad days.

But those maps are so awesome for pinballing a spire!
Wait till they are near a solid surface, and ram them into it! They bounce between you and the wall as you keep moving forward with moonshine. A very crunchy + satisfying way to destroy one.

I can see them flitting behind the surface with an acceleration and turning boost, but I don't lock in until I'm sure my ram will connect anyway. Not that it's not a good idea, but I'm not sure those maps would grant too much advantage. 
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Mr.Bando on June 21, 2013, 08:52:40 pm
Remove the hitbox for the pointy bottom part so you have to hit the main body to do dmg?

just a suggestion
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Echoez on June 21, 2013, 09:05:41 pm
That's funny cause even that silly iron part in front of the balloon is considered hull armor as well. I could take down a Spire's armor even though the whole ship was behind a building except for half their balloon and that iron part.

I'm sure the devs were thinking of a sniper platform when making this ship, it just didn't turn out as good I guess.

Now if only it could point 2 Mercs at one target at once..
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Machiavelliest on June 21, 2013, 11:02:19 pm
I find the Spire to be consistently bad when a Pyramidion-only captain decides that full forward throttle and guns blazing is the only way to fight.  If you choose your loadout carefully, you can engage and destroy ships well beyond their weapons' maximum ranges.    Most pilots aren't willing to stop and maintain proper distance.  That's the real weakness of the Spire.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: NikolaiLev on June 23, 2013, 07:23:36 pm
A spire, currently, is best properly played as a long-range sniper ship that relies on kiting.  Buff its speed and you make it too good at that (though there is usually counterplay to sniping as almost every map has cover, but this leads to uninteresting interactions, especially on more open maps).

Buffing its firepower is hard to do, and doing so is a risky proposition as, again, you make it better at what it already does well.

Buffing its survivability across the board seems to be the most reasonable option.  The problem with this being, the Spire is basically a competitor with the Galleon in terms of a niche, and the Galleon will almost always outshoot the Spire thanks to its dual heavy weapons, not to mention it's far tankier.

By the way, unless the ship rebalance touched more than I remember, the Galleon is in fact faster than the Spire, at least in terms of top speed.  It's obviously got horrible turn speed, but that's arguably not horribly important.

A slight but all-around buff could be wise; it could use a little more speed, a little more armor, and a lot more hull.  Not much can be done with the guns, though making the top right weapon face forward could help it in terms of versatility.

Another idea I had was instead of modifying its stats, it could be given a top right forward facing light weapon, and a right facing gun next to it.  This essentially "splits" the current top right weapon, and gives it a guaranteed two forward facing weapons, as well as side protection.  I like this adjustment the best, because the Spire is supposed to be a glass cannon, and thus should offer the best firepower.  It should rival the Galleon.  Unfortunately, this is difficult to do without giving it a second heavy weapon, but, it's also possible to give it a second bottom light weapon to enable a potential, blistering four weapons on target assuming the pilot is unneeded (which is seldom the case, which would give this adjustment counterplay in the form of keeping the pilot busy).

Giving the Spire a couple more guns would not only reinforce its role as a glass cannon, it also affords it excellent versatility by sheer volume of weaponry.  That'd do well to boost it up into competitive territory, don't you agree?
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Echoez on June 23, 2013, 08:35:35 pm
A little bit more perma-hull and the top right gun facing forward would realy give it some redeeming quality and make it a lighter version of the Galleon, with 2-Light/1-Heavy instead of the 2-Heavy/1-Light setup the Galleon has. I would still be slow and fragile, but at least it would have a place in sniping instead of being outclassed by the Galleon all the time.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Zenark on June 24, 2013, 12:26:57 pm
I like the two forward facing light guns idea, but people will certainly find a way to make it seem overpowered. Like dual Field Guns and a heavy Flak would be pure evil, two gats and Hwacha would also hurt.
You could probably turn the top front gun to the left at a 45° angle, and the top right gun 45° degrees as well, offering a more or less 180° firing arc where you could get an easy trifecta but not with mercuries.

I certainly wouldn't want to approach a Spite from the front.
Title: Re: Spire Discussion.
Post by: Echoez on June 24, 2013, 02:43:14 pm
If it can't get 2 Mercuries on one target then it's not a feasible sniper. A Galleon can take mercury hits, a Spire can't. It's a weak ship, it needs the extra fire power.