Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Adino on July 11, 2013, 01:56:48 pm
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Now, I might get a lot of rage, hate, or whatever from posting this, but it's the truth.
GoIO's population has been decreasing, if it hasn't steadied-off yet from decreasing.
I am one of those players who has been a part of that decreasing population. In light of the new patch, I'd say the content is headed in the rightish direction. With a small development team and a lot of work involved, this is to be expected.
However, there are some very vital components missing from GoIO.
GoIO is a team-based game. This is undeniable. Team-based gameplay puts players in an environment where their success revolves around the cooperation and competence of fellow teammates. With that in mind, there is no function indicating a team leader, aside from the loose Captain position, and there is no function indicating a leader's control over a team. As well, without proper communication, a team is bound to fail. There is no encouragement of communication, and chat uses a system unfamiliar to most players. To top it off, most ships are grossly under-manned, with only 4 players per team, and 2 players being stuck on repair duty, while 1 is stuck piloting. This issue is especially prevalent with the larger ships that are built to sustain up to 4 people firing weapons at a time, yet, viably, only 1 or 2 can. This wouldn't be a problem if one weapon were capable of working sufficiently alone, but that's not the case. You need an armor ripper and a hull crusher to effectively compete. Faced with these situations, the random teams that assemble are very unlikely to succeed. This leaves a lot of players feeling angry and at a loss to succeed.
To summarize:
Issues
Incompetent teammates
Lack of communication
Trolls on the team
Lack of leadership
Undermanned large ships
Angry/hopeless new players
Possible solutions:
Add ability for Captains to kick under-performing or misbehaving team members
Add a level requirement for Captains (i.e. before captaining a team, one must be level 3 on any given class)
Add an option for Captains to set requirements for joining their team (i.e. only accepting level 3+ Engineers and level 5+ gunners, only accepting active mic users, etc.)
Prioritize mic volume to make other team members quieter when the Captain is talking
Promote communication with banners, messages, or some other form of promotion
Chance chat to conform to the usual T and Y system that most any gamer will be accustomed to
Make team size scale with ship size (i.e. a squid/pyramidion/gold fish would have 3 team members, a junker/spire would have 4, a mobula/galleon would have 5) OR make weapons more independent
Limit number of possible pilots on a team to 1
I want to stress how much a kick function is needed. The primary reason I don't play anymore is because Captains have almost no control over who gets on their team. With the dwindling population and less-than-sufficient socializing opportunities, the game quickly becomes aggravating and, I'd even say, unplayable. It's not efficient to have to report someone to a GM every time they get a complete troll on their team who just sits in a gun and puts "lol" in chat throughout the whole round. We NEED to be able to kick people, otherwise a single player game would be less stressful.
Another thing I've noticed is that, not only are players inexperienced, it's very hard for them to learn much. There's not much feedback as to exactly what someone is doing. A combat log or combat chat would be useful, or even just floating damage numbers. Without some substantial indication as to what's really going on in combat, the game feels extremely trivial and will lack serious legitimacy when any experienced gamer plays it. The damage bars in weapon descriptions are a start, but we still don't know what they mean. We need more numbers.
GoIO could be great, but without systems that keep players interested and leaders satisfied, it will die before it has the chance.
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Hi Adino,
Great feedback and suggestions. Firstly let me address a few things. One is that, as a whole, the game's population has been growing over time. Compared to the high of TGS videos spike days, yeah sure, there is a decline, but that sorta to be expected. With more improvements that we do, we'll hopefully do better and better at keeping players and getting more and more people to enjoy the game.
Secondly, a Kick feature we are deciding not to offer at the moment. We are thinking about moderated and custom matches, but for now, we are not implementing a kick system after careful consideration. We want to do more to encourage teamwork, and over the last 2-3 months, we have added commendations, party, crew formation, beginner matches, scripted tutorials, citizenship achievements, etc. to facilitate team play. In the coming updates, we'll be working on different ways to facilitate team play and communications in matches. Kick, in my humble opinion, does not facilitate team play, and can more likely lead to more trolling and encouragement of negative behavior in game. As a creator of a moderated match though, I do think that Kick is what makes more sense there, and for that we are designing and spec'ing.
Lastly, this is our 7th month of release, and so far we have been improving every step of the way. And we haven't died yet. Hopefully we can keep it going.
And please don't take my reply the wrong way. I absolutely appreciate your support Adino. It's an honor to have everyone playing the game. And while we have a different notion about Kick and about how to encourage team play (we opt for a more approach of encouragement rather than a a punitive one), I do fundamentally agree with you. Improving team play and new player experience is the most important thing for us. And we will do more.
Thanks a lot, Howard
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I want to stress how much a kick function is needed. The primary reason I don't play anymore is because Captains have almost no control over who gets on their team.
I find swearing profusely usually gets the desired result. I start with polite requests to leave, and scale up until the air is blue.
The new Party system will help deal with trolls. It should now be easier to play out to the end of the game and then move the entire Lobby (minus troll/s) to a new game.
PS
Something Howard has been too polite to say. To save rehashing arguments, if you read back the forum a bit you'll find discussions about pretty much every point you raise. The observations regarding crew size and kick options are very old arguments, almost as old as the game. And most opinions are deeply entrenched.
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Hi Adino,
Great feedback and suggestions. Firstly let me address a few things. One is that, as a whole, the game's population has been growing over time. Compared to the high of TGS videos spike days, yeah sure, there is a decline, but that sorta to be expected. With more improvements that we do, we'll hopefully do better and better at keeping players and getting more and more people to enjoy the game.
Secondly, a Kick feature we are deciding not to offer at the moment. We are thinking about moderated and custom matches, but for now, we are not implementing a kick system after careful consideration. We want to do more to encourage teamwork, and over the last 2-3 months, we have added commendations, party, crew formation, beginner matches, scripted tutorials, citizenship achievements, etc. to facilitate team play. In the coming updates, we'll be working on different ways to facilitate team play and communications in matches. Kick, in my humble opinion, does not facilitate team play, and can more likely lead to more trolling and encouragement of negative behavior in game. As a creator of a moderated match though, I do think that Kick is what makes more sense there, and for that we are designing and spec'ing.
Lastly, this is our 7th month of release, and so far we have been improving every step of the way. And we haven't died yet. Hopefully we can keep it going.
And please don't take my reply the wrong way. I absolutely appreciate your support Adino. It's an honor to have everyone playing the game. And while we have a different notion about Kick and about how to encourage team play (we opt for a more approach of encouragement rather than a a punitive one), I do fundamentally agree with you. Improving team play and new player experience is the most important thing for us. And we will do more.
Thanks a lot, Howard
That's an all-fine-and-good approach to take, given that everyone wants to work together or be constructive somehow. That's a severe generalization in the online world. The added features are nice, but when I read the words "party" and "crew", I synonymise those with "team" in my mind, and I have a hard time believing I'm the only one. There isn't really a clear explanation of these new systems given, and I, for one, am very uncertain as to their purpose. I have a hard time believing I'm the only one, again.
I've played a lot of games in my time, and one thing I notice is that fair and forgiving games seem to have a lower general satisfaction among the playerbase compared to games with harsh, unforgiving environments. For example, STO vs EVE. Aside from the players themselves being in an unwanted situation, I'd sure feel sorry for the developers that have put themselves in the position to be blamed for it. In games were players are free to kick, free to troll, free to _____ and face the consequences from other players, the players can only blame other players. In games where players are free to troll and the developers have said "we're not going to do anything about this because we want to encourage people to stop rather than punish them", the developers are in a very blamable position.
I don't want to sound threatening, I'm just pointing out what a bad picture it is altogether. By allowing these things to happen, you're actually encouraging their continuation and growth, rather than letting other players deal with these upstarts. Ordinarily, someone unfavorable would eventually be so unwanted that he'd never find a team to annoy anymore. That's not possible in GoIO because he can stay wherever he goes without any ramifications.
That being said, I probably won't be playing GoIO, aside from checking out new updates, until a kick function is implemented. I'm genuinely annoyed out of any and all motivation to continue playing, and I really can't blame the other players.
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Trolls are a problem in every game and when someone is dedicated to ruining everyone else's experience more than likely they will find a way to succeed whether there is a kick option or not.
But I honestly have seen very little trolling in this game and with over 800 hours of time into it I feel like I can speak from a vantage point of experience.
It seems that your greatest frustration derives not from trolls but from the need to rely on teammates and those teammates sometimes being "incompetent". And therefore you'd like to kick said teammates so you can supplement them with ones that help you win.
This is the main reason we don't have a kick system
Because you can't get rid of bad players you're left with two options. Lose.... or teach. The current mechanics actually encourage players to teach and help each other and encourage players to get better. This fosters a fantastic community and enhances the team play element.
In regards to some of the other points you made I disagree that there isn't incentive to communication. The overarching goal of every match is to win and 9 out of 10 times the winning team had the best communication. This in and of itself encourages communication. I like many new players also thought that large ships were undermanned but more experience will show you that 4 people is more than enough for all the ships in the game and is essential for the game balance.
I do actually like the idea of having to reach level 3 before you can pilot in non beginners match though and prioritizing the volume of the captains mic also seems very sound and reasonable.
As for damage log, there is a constant damage feed on the top left of the screen as well as tons of visible indicators of ship damage. Furthermore lots of valuable weapon and ship data can be taken directly from the website http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/weapons/ http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/ships-3/ though admittedly it's a bit difficult to access.
You are like everyone entitled to your opinion and seeing as the CEO of Muse read this even before I did, it's great that you've shared it as it will only help make this game even better than it is.
If you do give GOI another chance, I'd recommend you join one of the existing clans. Having a reliable group of people to play with will likely get rid of a lot of your main complaints with the game and give you a fresh perspective on the game in general.
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Oh one more thing. Muse does take trolling seriously. Repeated offenders that get reported become quickly banned just in case anyone else is having issues with them.
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Hi Abino,
Couple of things real quick, with party and crew, their use are in the game manual, and we are planning to add more tooltips to help better direct people on what to do with different systems in the game. If anything in the manual is not clear, please let me know!
With Kick, I'm not saying that we don't do anything or don't care about the issue of trolling. In fact, if you reread my comment, I did say that we are looking at kick for moderated matches. Currently, there are already admin kick and afk kick, so it's not as though this function doesn't exist in the game. However, as Smollett pointed out, it's hard to decipher trolls from new players or people who just happen to have a difference in opinion but are competent, etc. Whether a player should be "kicked" or not is highly subjective for anyone. And this can in turn leads to a lot of trolling. Also, for a player to be kicked, it doesn't offer a permanent solution to trolling at all. So while on the surface this sounds like an easy solution. It is in fact pretty complicated, with potential to lead to a lot of negativity. We are active in moderation. In fact, we look at all reports all the time. And we will continue to do so.
Whether people agree with it or not, we try to take a more balance approach, looking at both moderation and features that would improve and positively reinforce team play together. If we have a sword in this game, we want to wield it very very carefully. After all, you guys spend your hard earn money in this game, and we have to be careful about what we add to the game, and the risk of creating a negative experience. With Kick, I can see it leading to negative experiences for a lot of people in game.
I will of course respect your decision whether to play or not to play the game. I am honored either way. We'll keep doing more and more to improve communications and teamwork, and hope you'll find the experience in game better and better.
Thanks! Howard
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Hi AbinoAdino,
Couple of things real quick, with party and crew, their use are in the game manual, and we are planning to add more tooltips to help better direct people on what to do with different systems in the game. If anything in the manual is not clear, please let me know!
With Kick, I'm not saying that we don't do anything or don't care about the issue of trolling. In fact, if you reread my comment, I did say that we are looking at kick for moderated matches. Currently, there are already admin kick and afk kick, so it's not as though this function doesn't exist in the game. However, as Smollett pointed out, it's hard to decipher trolls from new players or people who just happen to have a difference in opinion but are competent, etc. Whether a player should be "kicked" or not is highly subjective for anyone. And this can in turn leads to a lot of trolling. Also, for a player to be kicked, it doesn't offer a permanent solution to trolling at all. So while on the surface this sounds like an easy solution. It is in fact pretty complicated, with potential to lead to a lot of negativity. We are active in moderation. In fact, we look at all reports all the time. And we will continue to do so.
A permanent solution would be to add a simultaneous report mechanic to the kick function. An investigation into the activities of the recipient of the kick would be in order, and if found to be warrant of action, it could serve as a legitimate report against trolling. Other games have done similar things, and it's very effective. There's more players than moderators, after all.
Whether people agree with it or not, we try to take a more balance approach, looking at both moderation and features that would improve and positively reinforce team play together. If we have a sword in this game, we want to wield it very very carefully. After all, you guys spend your hard earn money in this game, and we have to be careful about what we add to the game, and the risk of creating a negative experience. With Kick, I can see it leading to negative experiences for a lot of people in game.
That would be the purpose of kick. It leads to a negative experience that, hopefully, will not be repeated. There are many ways to approach someone who would abuse the Kick function. I would find less people abuse the kick function than troll, which, in turn, would make it easier and more effective to kick-report trolls and manually report kick abusers, given the off-balance number of each.
Trolls are a problem in every game and when someone is dedicated to ruining everyone else's experience more than likely they will find a way to succeed whether there is a kick option or not.
Yes but the more they are denied the chance, the more they won't troll. Get kicked from enough games and you won't have anywhere else to go, especially if the kick has a minute ban to it or something.
But I honestly have seen very little trolling in this game and with over 800 hours of time into it I feel like I can speak from a vantage point of experience.
It seems that your greatest frustration derives not from trolls but from the need to rely on teammates and those teammates sometimes being "incompetent". And therefore you'd like to kick said teammates so you can supplement them with ones that help you win.
This is the main reason we don't have a kick system
Because you can't get rid of bad players you're left with two options. Lose.... or teach. The current mechanics actually encourage players to teach and help each other and encourage players to get better. This fosters a fantastic community and enhances the team play element.
I've come across 8 types of players in my time in GoIO:
1. Experienced players
2. New players willing to learn but not communicate, and thus can't learn nor succeed
3. New players willing to learn and communicate
4. New players unwilling to learn but very willing to communicate (complain, rage, bicker, yack, etc.), and thus severely hurt the team and the game
5. New players that are completely unresponsive and unwilling to learn
6. Semi-experienced players that do whatever they want with complete disregard to their team and/or crew and their Captain's wishes, and throw insults and/or complaints whenever addressed, usually blaming their team's failure on everyone else when they're the ones not contributing
7. Total trolls that sit in guns without firing, hit the Captain with a wrench the whole round, start fights with crewmates, etc.
8. Absolute derps that join rounds as the wrong class and refuse to leave or help
Of all those types, #'s 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 should be kickable. Only #7 could undeniably fall under the troll category, and thus face repercussions via reports to customer service.
I have absolutely no problem with helping people, but I'll say that 70% of the noobs I come across are the #2, 4, 5, and 8 types.
In regards to some of the other points you made I disagree that there isn't incentive to communication. The overarching goal of every match is to win and 9 out of 10 times the winning team had the best communication. This in and of itself encourages communication. I like many new players also thought that large ships were undermanned but more experience will show you that 4 people is more than enough for all the ships in the game and is essential for the game balance.
See, this is where Muse makes a fatal mistake. Assuming most (80% or more) new players actually pay attention to communication, success, team-play, or anything sophisticated, is detrimental to GoIO. For those players who don't know the game contains voice chat, or don't notice the chat window, or whatever keeps them from communicating, they need something that loudly says to them: "COMMUNICATION = SUCCESS".
I remember the tutorials being very under-developed. I see an opportunity to build a more complex tutorial and introduce new players to the fact that communication is vital in any team game.
As for damage log, there is a constant damage feed on the top left of the screen as well as tons of visible indicators of ship damage. Furthermore lots of valuable weapon and ship data can be taken directly from the website http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/weapons/ http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/ships-3/ though admittedly it's a bit difficult to access.
To memory, I've never noticed that damage log on the top left, and I'm sure a large percentage of the playerbase hasn't, either. I'd like to hear more about these "tons of visible indicators". The valuable ship data on the website is, indeed, difficult to access.
I request a system that is right there, in-your-face, and easy to understand. For example, hovering over those damage bars in the weapon details could bring a popup over one's cursor that gives exact numbers and a description as to exactly how the weapon is supposed to be used and how it behaves under normal circumstances. Maybe even take it a step further and add some story text to it.
You are like everyone entitled to your opinion and seeing as the CEO of Muse read this even before I did, it's great that you've shared it as it will only help make this game even better than it is.
That's my intention.
If you do give GOI another chance, I'd recommend you join one of the existing clans. Having a reliable group of people to play with will likely get rid of a lot of your main complaints with the game and give you a fresh perspective on the game in general.
Where could I find one?
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In games where players are free to troll and the developers have said "we're not going to do anything about this because we want to encourage people to stop rather than punish them", the developers are in a very blamable position.
To back up the devs a bit here: I think they do a better job than any kick feature. On the very few occasions that I have reported players for offensive names and such, it has been handled in minutes. Trolls aren't handled this quickly, due to the more prolonged procedure and evidence needed to prove trolling, but they are still handled.
The devs are in the trenches with us in this game. I've rarely been on without someone from Muse at least passing through the lobby. They take all issues seriously and go out of their way to help the players.
This game has something a hell of a lot better than some old kick feature (which has eliminated trolls in every other game it is used, right?), and that is the actual concerned devs who seek to protect their game and the legit players playing it.
Furthermore, I have only been playing a couple months, but I have only come across trolls maybe 2 or 3 times. In fact, I had one kid who was kinda acting an ass on my ship, but as soon as I started to try and educate him, he became a pretty good gunner. This game has a pretty good learning curve. The only way to cure incompetence, is to teach them. If you aren't a patient and competent teacher, then I can completely understand the frustration.
In addition, anyone can feel free to friend me and join in my games anytime they would like. We usually wind up with some really good groups and have a lot of fun. Drop by sometime.
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If you do give GOI another chance, I'd recommend you join one of the existing clans. Having a reliable group of people to play with will likely get rid of a lot of your main complaints with the game and give you a fresh perspective on the game in general.
Where could I find one?
Here you go: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,295.0.html
But you can also just continue to fly in goio for now, and if you're paired up with someone with a new clan tag you can also inquire about their group, that may be a better way to go about it :)
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Also, with your list of types of players, I really feel bad for you and the experiences you seem to be having. It almost sounds like a different game with a different player base than the one I am playing.
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Also, with your list of types of players, I really feel bad for you and the experiences you seem to be having. It almost sounds like a different game with a different player base than the one I am playing.
Different times of day, and it's like a whole different game. There are entire stretches of summer days when, for hours on end, it feels like 80% of players online are 12 year old boys. This winds up the remaining 20% who will then snap at absolutely anyone that deviates from exactly what they want their crew to do.
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Also, with your list of types of players, I really feel bad for you and the experiences you seem to be having. It almost sounds like a different game with a different player base than the one I am playing.
Different times of day, and it's like a whole different game. There are entire stretches of summer days when, for hours on end, it feels like 80% of players online are 12 year old boys. This winds up the remaining 20% who will then snap at absolutely anyone that deviates from exactly what they want their crew to do.
I find myself quitting rather than snapping :-\
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To memory, I've never noticed that damage log on the top left, and I'm sure a large percentage of the playerbase hasn't, either. I'd like to hear more about these "tons of visible indicators". The valuable ship data on the website is, indeed, difficult to access.
Really? It's, like, bigger than the chat box. In the top left corner when ANYTHING on ANY SHIP is destroyed or repaired, it will say so up there. Example:
Zenark has destroyed Hull Armor
Or
USS Enterprise has killed Crimson Chin (Yes Kirk, I used you)
Not to mention that with the new update, when Hull Armor is destroyed, a big black 'poof' appears around the ship with fragments falling down as if you actually see the Armor falling apart.
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Damage indicators include the following:
-The damage log in the top left
-The balloon deflates as it takes damage
-Black smoke comes from heavily damaged/destroyed guns and engines
-A rather large black explosion when the hull armour goes down
-The ship visibly degenerates as it loses hull
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To memory, I've never noticed that damage log on the top left, and I'm sure a large percentage of the playerbase hasn't, either. I'd like to hear more about these "tons of visible indicators". The valuable ship data on the website is, indeed, difficult to access.
Really? It's, like, bigger than the chat box. In the top left corner when ANYTHING on ANY SHIP is destroyed or repaired, it will say so up there. Example:
Zenark has destroyed Hull Armor
Or
USS Enterprise has killed Crimson Chin (Yes Kirk, I used you)
Not to mention that with the new update, when Hull Armor is destroyed, a big black 'poof' appears around the ship with fragments falling down as if you actually see the Armor falling apart.
Those are not damage numbers, nor are they any indication of damage dealt whatsoever. I'd hardly consider them combat notifications. You can obviously see that you've killed someone, and since most matches are 2v2, you only need to look at the score to know if your teammate has died. It doesn't really matter who dies on the enemy team as long as one of them dies, unless you're in the heat of coordination and battle, in which case you'd probably notice which one dies, anyway.
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Damage indicators include the following:
-The damage log in the top left
-The balloon deflates as it takes damage
-Black smoke comes from heavily damaged/destroyed guns and engines
-A rather large black explosion when the hull armour goes down
-The ship visibly degenerates as it loses hull
It's still less than sufficient. Weapons smoke when damaged. Armor shatters after being destroyed, but we don't know how close it is until it finally goes boom. We don't have any clear readout as to the precise performance of our own ship's weapons.
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To memory, I've never noticed that damage log on the top left, and I'm sure a large percentage of the playerbase hasn't, either. I'd like to hear more about these "tons of visible indicators". The valuable ship data on the website is, indeed, difficult to access.
Really? It's, like, bigger than the chat box. In the top left corner when ANYTHING on ANY SHIP is destroyed or repaired, it will say so up there. Example:
Zenark has destroyed Hull Armor
Or
USS Enterprise has killed Crimson Chin (Yes Kirk, I used you)
Not to mention that with the new update, when Hull Armor is destroyed, a big black 'poof' appears around the ship with fragments falling down as if you actually see the Armor falling apart.
Those are not damage numbers, nor are they any indication of damage dealt whatsoever. I'd hardly consider them combat notifications. You can obviously see that you've killed someone, and since most matches are 2v2, you only need to look at the score to know if your teammate has died. It doesn't really matter who dies on the enemy team as long as one of them dies, unless you're in the heat of coordination and battle, in which case you'd probably notice which one dies, anyway.
This game is far better off not having damage numbers or health bars displayed. Yes, there are indicators towards what's damaged and what's broken, and recognizing those is an important part of the game. This really doesn't need to have numbers thrown about on screen where you end up not looking at the fight itself, rather just looking at some hp window staring at numbers.
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It's still less than sufficient. Weapons smoke when damaged. Armor shatters after being destroyed, but we don't know how close it is until it finally goes boom. We don't have any clear readout as to the precise performance of our own ship's weapons.
HUD-envy?
Sorry, but life doesn't have a HUD and too many games cater for the AR-nerd and forget that gameplay should be fun. Precise numbers/status is not needed in game.
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It's still less than sufficient. Weapons smoke when damaged. Armor shatters after being destroyed, but we don't know how close it is until it finally goes boom. We don't have any clear readout as to the precise performance of our own ship's weapons.
And thats the beauty of it, there are no numbers on the screen, no health bars, no HUD. Precise numbers would ruin the mood/immersion.
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We don't need health bars. I agree bars would clutter up the UI, also. However, discreet-grey numbers in small font would not ruin the game's immersion. Many games even have a function to enable or disable damage numbers.
Some people want them, and others don't. I'm one that does. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be allowed to play without them, but I should be allowed to play with them. Same goes for the silly looking old-movie overlay. I can't stand that thing. A simple toggle in the options would solve both issues.
I do think the pilot should get his/her own HUD, though, that displays the status of all ship systems. I think that'd be a lot more efficient than constantly scanning one's screen or twisting one's camera to check on things. It could be as simple as little icons in the bottom middle of the screen.
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Some people want them, and others don't. I'm one that does. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be allowed to play without them, but I should be allowed to play with them. Same goes for the silly looking old-movie overlay. I can't stand that thing. A simple toggle in the options would solve both issues.
Turning off the old-movie effect is done by setting the Post processing option to false.
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Some people want them, and others don't. I'm one that does. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be allowed to play without them, but I should be allowed to play with them. Same goes for the silly looking old-movie overlay. I can't stand that thing. A simple toggle in the options would solve both issues.
Turning off the old-movie effect is done by setting the Post processing option to false.
Wouldn't that have other graphical side effects? Post processing is a pretty big part of quality.
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Some people want them, and others don't. I'm one that does. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be allowed to play without them, but I should be allowed to play with them. Same goes for the silly looking old-movie overlay. I can't stand that thing. A simple toggle in the options would solve both issues.
Turning off the old-movie effect is done by setting the Post processing option to false.
Wouldn't that have other graphical side effects? Post processing is a pretty big part of quality.
I've only really noticed it removing the film grain and similar effects. Give it a go and see what you think.
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Really? It's, like, bigger than the chat box. In the top left corner when ANYTHING on ANY SHIP is destroyed or repaired, it will say so up there. Example:
Zenark has destroyed Hull Armor
Or
USS Enterprise has killed Crimson Chin (Yes Kirk, I used you)
HECK YEA.
*ahem*
It's also color coded by team. Components and players on the blue team appear in blue, and the same for red.
I.E.
Zenark has destroyed Hull Armor
Or
USS Enterprise has killed Crimson Chin (Yes Zenark, I used you)
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For long time and experienced players the beauty of the game IS that shooting is gone by estmation as is with the damage you've coused (estimation). [That sort of things IS the beauty of indie games]
By following the combat log you can learn a lot (as hull engineer I do actualy have a decent grasp of what's going on).
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Is this really an argument AGAIN.
People keep saying theres a decrease in players: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1382.msg28953.html#msg28953
But then suddenly a wild Influx appears: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1490.msg25569.html#msg25569
So you guys tell me are we gunna keep going round in circles OR ARE WE GUNNA GET OVER THE FACT WE HAVE A CHANGING PLAYER BASE IT HAS BEEN SINCE DAY 1
This game has been almost a year and it had a recent kickstarter so no one can say its dying. JUST GO RAGE IN PRIVATE.
Luv and kisses Captain Phoenix
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For long time and experienced players the beauty of the game IS that shooting is gone by estmation as is with the damage you've coused (estimation). [That sort of things IS the beauty of indie games]
By following the combat log you can learn a lot (as hull engineer I do actualy have a decent grasp of what's going on).
+1
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Anyone can count and do the math to see when a ship is about to die, that makes it easy. The fact that there are not any numerical indications of damage means that players need experience to know when to use what.
To me, this game is not supposed to be easy, it's supposed to require tactics and skill that can only be acquired through playing on the different ships, guns, maps, and classes. This isn't a game you can learn to play alone... Well, you could, but that's no fun.
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I don't know wether there is an increase, or a decrease in population, but..
The social part of the game, needs improvements.
For starters; the ingame chat, on the main menu, clears itself way too often, leaving us not knowing what people are actually talking about. Getting a proper ingame chat in Place, will boost the Community aspect of the game.
What about a teaching channel? A help channel? Being able to see all players online?
I can go on and on about commubnity things though..
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For starters; the ingame chat, on the main menu, clears itself way too often, leaving us not knowing what people are actually talking about. Getting a proper ingame chat in Place, will boost the Community aspect of the game.
That's a glitch that's being looked into by Muse at the moment.
What about a teaching channel? A help channel? Being able to see all players online?
There's a list of online CAs in the Social tab. You can PM them to ask for help and advice. As for a list of online players... That doesn't seem too useful considering that you can already see if your friends and people you've recently played with are online. However, if you want to know who's in the same lobby (or not in a lobby), then you can type /who into chat and it'll provide you with a list.
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But you do agree the social aspect of the game needs a boost? Despite that you are arguing against my suggestions? ;) PMing CA's is great, but doesn't help anyone when they are playing. It's an offline feature, we need more online interaction.
How about having the forums accessible from within the game? Auto login from within the game itself, being able to browse and interact when waiting for matches?
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Not meaning to be rude but have you actually looked at any part of the game other than "Quick Join". Everything you just said is available already and if you could suggest how we could boost the social aspect of the game please tell.
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To be honest, I've never used quickjoin.. Did you have any parts in perticular in mind? I don't know which part of all I said is ingame already, if it is, it's well hidden.
I thought I had suggestions, did I come across as not having suggestions? Sorry if I did.. Forum ingame. More channels. Working chat, with a bit more functionality, as a bigger window perhaps, people run at large resolutions nowadays, utilize it. The ability to create Groups for chat, even if you're not in the same match (would greatly help the non-English speaking part of the community). Perhaps linking the steam Community ingame. Community challenges. Events (playing against the devs is a great idea, which is in already).
I wasn't bashing the game, so the defensiveness is unnecessary. I like the game as much as you do, I just want it to grow :)
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Check the social bar.
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Also we already have events one of the major ones is "Cogs".
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Check it for what exactly? You're awfully non-descriptive.
It lists your rank etc. That's about it. You can list CAs, friends, blocked and who you played with. None of the things I mentioned :/ There are external links to things, but that's not what I'm talking about. I think you know that though. I didn't figure I'd get this much friction about suggestions...
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Captain Phoenix gets overly excited sometimes. Chat can be enlarged be increasing it height. Chat works, the clearing bug is being worked on (appeared in the latest patch). While not having a separate tab, you can talk to people in your party both with voice and text chat.
Steam groups integartion I think is quationable if it will be implemented, as steam has enough issues in itself. What we've suggested to Muse recently is ingame anounements, witch would show you major announcements in title screen.
There is plenty of events going on we had a 3v3 tournament not 10 days ago. We have weekly league-that-is-not-real-league thing called COGS. We have frequent tournaments lately.
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Yeah, don't worry too much about Phoenix. He just likes to speak his mind :)
As for group chat, you can click "Build Party" in the top right and then click on players' names to invite them. Anybody in your party can be chatted with through voice and text whether they're in the same match as you or not.
Muse is always looking to expand the social aspect of the game, and any suggestions you make are much appreciated.
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What more do you need than a pop-up for an in-game forum is that not good enough for you, do you not realize that is ridiculous to ask them to do that so early in the game they are still working out server bugs for Christ's sake give them a bit of breathing room and I'm sure they will do it.
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Since you speak your mind so elegantly Phoenix, I will aswell.
You sir, seriously need to cut down on the coffee and the attitude. You are not very welcoming, or constructive. You come off as bashing people intentionally. Normally I would disregard this, but despite me being friendly, you keep being an.. well, sorry for the expression here, but it begins with an a. I don't know your relationship on the forums, but it seems to be well tolerated.
I'm not telling anyone to do it now. But having suggestions about things to do in the future is never a bad idea. Discussing suggestions, coming up with new ones, is contructive, and hopefully, 10% of all suggestions will see the light of day in the future. It keeps developers having something on the maybe-list, to do in the future. If someone should suggest putting a clickable teddybear that burps flowers on the main menu, well, that's an idea. It might not make it in the game, but it's still an idea, and can be discussed without having someone patronising it.
I am actually trying to be helpful and friendly. Obviusly you don't appreciate that, and that's fine, but please, keep your patronising to yourself. One person can give a Community a really bad vibe..
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What you don't seem to understand is the points you have made are neither suggestions nor feedback. Feedback would imply that something was broken or that you like or dislike it, you however only stated that you could not find what is already there. Also a suggestion would imply that it was new and as previously stated nothing you "suggested" was new. It was just you being a bit selfish and not being satisfied by something that is good enough right now.
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I am actually trying to be helpful and friendly. Obviusly you don't appreciate that, and that's fine, but please, keep your patronising to yourself. One person can give a Community a really bad vibe..
Oh Phoenix is a puppy compared to some resident raptors we have around here. Think most of us trade our share of blows with Phoenix but at times he does have a solid point on things. You don't have to like him, or really anyone in this game. But often times you'll be put in a position to face them in the air. If you have anything to prove, that is where you do it.
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Phoenix: I understand plenty, and you're wrong. You just don't like it and lash out, which is sad. I just spoke my mind as you like to do. You an call me names all you want if that helps you pass the time.
Glider: That's actually too bad. A welcoming attitude and constructive discussions makes a great Community. The fact that you yourselves Think that isn't the case here, has to be a bit sad. Fortunately, I've also met alot of great people ingame, maybe it's just the forums that brings the worst out of people :p
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Phoenix: I understand plenty, and you're wrong. You just don't like it and lash out, which is sad. I just spoke my mind as you like to do. You an call me names all you want if that helps you pass the time.
That you are saying that I called you names is quite frankly ridiculous, how dare you insult me by saying these thing's when you yourself said more insulting and nonconstructive things. It is a sham that you are on the forums speaking nonsense it's people like you who ruin this game people who post silly idea's which quite frankly need looking into before you post them so before you start to point fingers and insult someone have the evidence to prove it. I did not question your intelligence nor did I say what I believe you to be but you some random person who has done nothing but to sully the nature of this game further dare to tell other people that the drivel that you call your ideas are both factual and sensible is an insult to this game and it's developers.
I hope that you now understand how stupid you have been in this whole endeavor. You try to make it out that this game doesn't have a great community how dare you. The CA's on this game with all there flaws do there utmost to make this game one of the most well maintained and managed community. This game isn't perfect and you may have players like me who speak our minds but when we speak we only speak with equality and passion. No-one is better than anyone else here so if you think that by calling me names and trying to belittle me when all I have done is tell you the plain and honest truth, which you don't seem to accept, then you have the wrong attitude for this game; So if you think that you are better than everyone else because when you speak your mind you insult someone and are clearly in the wrong then, how dare you complain that someone else is giving a "bad vibe" to the community, when you are the only one insulting people
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Hey guys,
First of all, thanks Phoenix for your kind words regarding CAs as a whole. That being said, can we please get this thread back on track with the OP? If you would like, I can split the current conversation off to another thread.
Thanks,
Shink
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you some random person who has done nothing but to sully the nature of this game further dare to tell other people that the drivel that you call your ideas are both factual and sensible is an insult to this game and it's developers.
I'm sorry Phoenix, but I have not sullied the game, nor do I have an intention of doing so. I try to help out as much as I can, which you claim I don't. You are entitled to your opinion, but you did call me selfish, which I have not displayed, and in such, called me names. And as to who has insulted who, well, your last post was pretty insulting, but I'll let that go.
No-one is better than anyone else here so if you think that by calling me names and trying to belittle me when all I have done is tell you the plain and honest truth, which you don't seem to accept, then you have the wrong attitude for this game;
I agree, noone is above anyone else, and frankly, I've been very curtious from the beginning. I try to be constructive, I try to be nice, but you just won't let go, nor will you stop displaying a very angry undertone. I have no quarrel with you, but you seem to have with me. I might have the wrong attitude for this game, I might not. The fact that I find it entertaining, and captivating, is enough for me.
I admire all the CAs here, they do an excellent job. I haven't said anything negative about them, so bringing that up is a bit unfortunate of you. I have Always gotten an extremele professional experience dealing with them, and they deserve all the praise they can get.
As a conclusion, I Think we should heed the request of Shinkurex and discontinue this discussion here, and let the thread return to it's original intention. Let's agree to disagree on all planes, and I'll buy you a beer at the local pub.
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Getting the post back on track?! An absurd request Shink! How dare yo-- alrighty then time to skip the page 3 warzone and requote from page 2.
I don't know wether there is an increase, or a decrease in population, but..
The social part of the game, needs improvements.
For starters; the ingame chat, on the main menu, clears itself way too often, leaving us not knowing what people are actually talking about. Getting a proper ingame chat in Place, will boost the Community aspect of the game.
What about a teaching channel? A help channel? Being able to see all players online?
I can go on and on about commubnity things though..
As Phoenix said a few posts ahead of this one, we do seem to have a cycle of incoming and outgoing players. Right now the steam sale is ripe and there is a push of new players incoming on top of the returning players from the patch - We'll see how far this will take the steady population.
I don't really feel there's anything to add to our social structure that isn't already in the works; Muse has been putting a lot of effort into reworking their social game through parties, clans, crews, and general improvements to chat. Teaching and help is offered openly in regional chat via CAs, Muse employees, and even friendly players willing to help out. Most even make it well known to ask if there are any questions or concerns.
As far as teaching goes, besides chat questions, there are weekly training matches held in the new player lobbies to provide hands on learning from the CAs. It's an amazing effort that shows our CAs dedication to this game as these exersizes are voluntary yet tend to have a good showing of goodwilled players willing to help. If you're interested in learning more about them, I direct you to the training day board (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/board,35.0.html).
The playerbase fluctuates as new people jump in, old people grow bored, and new people give up. It's like any other game. The difference is: There are actually people here who care very strongly about this community and will do everything in their power to keep it going. You can see their voices everywhere and most carry a CA tag by now. Unfortunately you cannot force knowledge into someone unwilling to learn, however the stress induced by these bad eggs is often short lived. I can say from my experience, that for every one player unwilling to learn I have found another 3-5 new people to friend.
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Getting the post back on track?! An absurd request Shink! How dare yo--
Blaming Shink for the moment...................................
I don't know whether there is an increase, or a decrease in population, but..
As others have stated, the community fluctuates in numbers again and again. Still, I remember back in the earlier days it was hard to scrap up enough people for a game, at least the community is large enough for people to actually play.
Wouldn't that have other graphical side effects? Post processing is a pretty big part of quality.
As far as I know, post processing is mainly just fancy after effects, things you really don't need to actually enjoy the game. Like Shink said, turn off Post Processing in the options menu.
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Muse has been putting a lot of effort into reworking their social game through parties, clans, crews, and general improvements to chat.
I'm actually amazed at the amount of Muse staff you see in the ingame chat. It's a real treat. I'm impressed :)
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Muse has been putting a lot of effort into reworking their social game through parties, clans, crews, and general improvements to chat.
I'm actually amazed at the amount of Muse staff you see in the ingame chat. It's a real treat. I'm impressed :)
With a pinch of luck, a few will even drop into a game with you.
Just, be careful. A couple of 'em have some pretty crazy builds.
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Muse has been putting a lot of effort into reworking their social game through parties, clans, crews, and general improvements to chat.
I'm actually amazed at the amount of Muse staff you see in the ingame chat. It's a real treat. I'm impressed :)
With a pinch of luck, a few will even drop into a game with you.
Just, be careful. A couple of 'em have some pretty crazy builds.
This is a true fact. Beware of Cullen.
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I don't want to derail any further, but just a quick note. The issue mentioned earlier in this thread:
For starters; the ingame chat, on the main menu, clears itself way too often, leaving us not knowing what people are actually talking about. Getting a proper ingame chat in Place, will boost the Community aspect of the game.
has been fixed.
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I noticed that, great news :)
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Honestly, I agree with the third post in the thread that these problems are mostly fixed with the new social features. Otherwise, some nice suggestions were made. I'd love to see larger crews (like five or six, maybe).
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I just heard today that that is not planned.
"Teamwork gets a little wonky" is the quote, I believe.
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Teamwork is wonky now. :P I'd love to see that quote for more info.
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Unfortunately, it was in-game.
The Devs are around often enough, you can ask 'em yourself.
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Yeah, I just saw them and asked about it. They're really stuck on the number 4 for some reason. I asked if we could have just one more crew member, making it 5. They seemed rather stubborn about it. They mentioned camping on repairs and said that it becomes impersonal for the captain with more than 4. That's all of the explanation I could get.
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There is some psychological research that shows humans can't focus on more than 3 at once. We can compartmentalize and abstract, so if we have 5 engineers we can compartmentalize the idea "engineering crew" instead of thinking about each engineer. That is why there are a lot of 4 player team games out there. Self + 3 other players is just enough for a player to keep track of before our brain starts having to abstract concepts.
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So by abstract concepts we talking about seeing another universe with infinite amount of crew or just thinking our crew capable of feats only capable in the matrix?
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There is some psychological research that shows humans can't focus on more than 3 at once. We can compartmentalize and abstract, so if we have 5 engineers we can compartmentalize the idea "engineering crew" instead of thinking about each engineer. That is why there are a lot of 4 player team games out there. Self + 3 other players is just enough for a player to keep track of before our brain starts having to abstract concepts.
Yeah, that sounds like a solid reason. In that case, they shouldn't make ships that seem to obviously be intended for crews larger than 4. *coughMOBULAcough*
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There is some psychological research that shows humans can't focus on more than 3 at once. We can compartmentalize and abstract, so if we have 5 engineers we can compartmentalize the idea "engineering crew" instead of thinking about each engineer. That is why there are a lot of 4 player team games out there. Self + 3 other players is just enough for a player to keep track of before our brain starts having to abstract concepts.
Yeah, that sounds like a solid reason. In that case, they shouldn't make ships that seem to obviously be intended for crews larger than 4. *coughMOBULAcough*
It's less of a question of it being intended for more than four people, but more a question of it being intended for a well-coordinated crew of four.
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There is some psychological research that shows humans can't focus on more than 3 at once. We can compartmentalize and abstract, so if we have 5 engineers we can compartmentalize the idea "engineering crew" instead of thinking about each engineer. That is why there are a lot of 4 player team games out there. Self + 3 other players is just enough for a player to keep track of before our brain starts having to abstract concepts.
Yeah, that sounds like a solid reason. In that case, they shouldn't make ships that seem to obviously be intended for crews larger than 4. *coughMOBULAcough*
It's less of a question of it being intended for more than four people, but more a question of it being intended for a well-coordinated crew of four.
Yeah, I just think that it's a silly ship. Trying to juggle those guns and repairs is a pain if the crew is expected to actually use all five at various times in the match.
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It's less of a question of it being intended for more than four people, but more a question of it being intended for a well-coordinated crew of four.
The Mobula doesn't need a well coordinated crew of 4, it needs a hive mind linked crew of 4.
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It's less of a question of it being intended for more than four people, but more a question of it being intended for a well-coordinated crew of four.
The Mobula doesn't need a well coordinated crew of 4, it needs a hive mind linked crew of 4.
Sounds like a job for the Zerg, then again, there is always more then 4 Zerg. Personally however In a game I played on a Mobula, the crew was like, "Welp something just broke," and then someone is like "Welp I'll fix it." the entirety of the match.
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Bu....but.....the mobula is simple to crew........
just use zone coverage. one engie in each hallway and the gunner up top. far side guns are only for specialized opportunities and anyone can run over there and use them if you need it (just put mine launchers there for instant 10 mine field, or some close range gun your gunner can run over and use while you are turning.)
each engineer has 3 things to worry about. gunner has 2 (plus side guns on occasion). thats not alot. its just new. people gotta get used to it.
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The mobula would be much easier to maintain if the balloon and hull were connected more directly. You now need two engineers below deck and one above deck for the main engine to keep the ship in shape. When the mobula is taking a beating it's just dying a slow and painful death as it is right now.
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Hi Adino,
Great feedback and suggestions. Firstly let me address a few things. One is that, as a whole, the game's population has been growing over time. Compared to the high of TGS videos spike days, yeah sure, there is a decline, but that sorta to be expected. With more improvements that we do, we'll hopefully do better and better at keeping players and getting more and more people to enjoy the game.
Secondly, a Kick feature we are deciding not to offer at the moment. We are thinking about moderated and custom matches, but for now, we are not implementing a kick system after careful consideration. We want to do more to encourage teamwork, and over the last 2-3 months, we have added commendations, party, crew formation, beginner matches, scripted tutorials, citizenship achievements, etc. to facilitate team play. In the coming updates, we'll be working on different ways to facilitate team play and communications in matches. Kick, in my humble opinion, does not facilitate team play, and can more likely lead to more trolling and encouragement of negative behavior in game. As a creator of a moderated match though, I do think that Kick is what makes more sense there, and for that we are designing and spec'ing.
Lastly, this is our 7th month of release, and so far we have been improving every step of the way. And we haven't died yet. Hopefully we can keep it going.
And please don't take my reply the wrong way. I absolutely appreciate your support Adino. It's an honor to have everyone playing the game. And while we have a different notion about Kick and about how to encourage team play (we opt for a more approach of encouragement rather than a a punitive one), I do fundamentally agree with you. Improving team play and new player experience is the most important thing for us. And we will do more.
Thanks a lot, Howard
Having experienced DotA2 and games where retardation is redefined on a daily basis, I'm telling you that kicking is aq MUST HAVE. Because without kicking, people, especially the captains, have no means of power over their team. And while admittedly, most crewmembers in GoIO have been great so far; there are also some kick or even ban-worthy occasions in my experience.
When the means of power are required, but not available, frustration kicks in. And it kicks in hard, it will not just be shouting and flaming, it will lead to some serious verbal violence that the DotA2 and HoN communities are well known for. And implementing a mute system will not only anger just about every player playing your game, it will not stop the frustration caused by dicks fucking the crew over.
Everyone knows that the flipside of kicking is that some will try to abuse it, but some games have already proven that this is a really minor issue. In Alliance of Variant Arms, people complained about being kicked almost every game they're in; their developers adjusted the kick system so people could call less kickvotes. Those same players still got kicked even though the callers were severely hampered in their abilities. Often there, kicking is a team effort where people will spend their calling abilities to help out those that don't. Not because the majority of AVA players are trolls, but because it's for the benefit of the team. The same applies to other FPSes like Call of Duty and Quake, it's the civilized and mature way of dealing with dicks.
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You bring up a good point: How can kicking be abused if the whole group must vote on it first? If the pilot was the only one with the power, then it would surely be abused. If the whole team unanimously agrees that a certain player should go, then where is the harm?
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You bring up a good point: How can kicking be abused if the whole group must vote on it first? If the pilot was the only one with the power, then it would surely be abused. If the whole team unanimously agrees that a certain player should go, then where is the harm?
If the captain is abusing his kicking abilities, he wouldn't have a crew. Being a captain means you need to have a crew's support and if you're a complete dick as a captain and kicking people randomly, you'd end up without a crew and thus unable to play effectively. Only dumb people would shoot themselves in the foot like that.
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Trolls aren't exactly known for their intelligence.
There once was a troll in my game speaking with an obviously fake Indian accent. He was picking the wrong classes and jumping around the lobby.
He ended up on my ship, much to my dismay.
Unable to kick him, I decided to deal with him.
I played along with his stupid joke ("So, what part of India are you from?"), and actually ended up having a good laugh or two.
He realized that he was also having a bit of fun, and returned the favor by being a good crewman.
We even ended up playing a few more games together.
TL;DR, kicking is the easy way out. Find a way to deal with trolls socially. That's what this game's all about.
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TL;DR, kicking is the easy way out. Find a way to deal with trolls socially. That's what this game's all about.
Yes this. Plus it's not really trolls that I find people wanting to kick. People want to kick "bad" players or get rid of people to make room for their friends. What you'll wind up getting is tons of people getting kicked and banned from lobbies without ever knowing why because most people are too lazy to try to talk to people or teach people to get better.
This game is about working with other people, and kicking them is really not in the spirit of this game.
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Which is why they implemented Party and Form Crew options.
To preempt getting bad players without anyone getting kicked.
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I think kicking is just the easy, lazy way out. If someone takes my friend's spot, I ask them to please move. Almost always, they move. The difference between this game and almost any other, is that GOIO takes actual cooperation, not just teamwork, to be successful. You have to actually be on speaking terms with people to have any real sort of success.
Also, there is an option if you truly don't want to fly with someone on your ship: Leave the match and find another. I've used this as a last resort. It's even easier now with the party system and whatnot.
So, I guess every game really has a de facto kick feature: kick yourself.
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I'm conviced that this game is just too complicated for the general public. I just had a guy who didn't realize that the mortar could do medium range by simply aiming high. He tried to argue that I should just get closer. The next thing that happened was that we got rushed and rammed to death. Too many people just don't understand how the weapons work because they just want to jump into multiplayer. Muse has a very intelligent game here, but the public are too lazy to learn the game. I think the only way to actually play well and enjoy the game is to have a clan or good friends. That leaves random play out completely as an option. Talk about a bad first impression of the game for newbies.
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I'm conviced that this game is just too complicated for the general public. I just had a guy who didn't realize that the mortar could do medium range by simply aiming high. He tried to argue that I should just get closer. The next thing that happened was that we got rushed and rammed to death. Too many people just don't understand how the weapons work because they just want to jump into multiplayer. Muse has a very intelligent game here, but the public are too lazy to learn the game. I think the only way to actually play well and enjoy the game is to have a clan or good friends. That leaves random play out completely as an option. Talk about a bad first impression of the game for newbies.
Not really. I personally joined this game, played by myself and thoroughly enjoyed it, only joining a team very recently (got the game back around Christmas).
You do however have to have the WANT to learn how things work, otherwise it will be hard, certainly. That's generally the nature of the beast in multiplayer games though.
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Trolls aren't exactly known for their intelligence.
There once was a troll in my game speaking with an obviously fake Indian accent. He was picking the wrong classes and jumping around the lobby.
He ended up on my ship, much to my dismay.
Unable to kick him, I decided to deal with him.
I played along with his stupid joke ("So, what part of India are you from?"), and actually ended up having a good laugh or two.
He realized that he was also having a bit of fun, and returned the favor by being a good crewman.
We even ended up playing a few more games together.
TL;DR, kicking is the easy way out. Find a way to deal with trolls socially. That's what this game's all about.
That isn't proper trolling what he was doing. Kicking is an easy way out, certainly. But it's still civil. If you don't implement kicking, you WILL eventually end up with a community like DotA2s where flaming and verbal abuse is common. Simply because players will lack the means to rid themselves of unbeneficial teammates; and like I said, fighting the verbal abuse itself will only raise the frustration of the players.
What you had was just a minor incident. I've had tons of people on whom I've exhausted all my abilities to manipulate on without success. This includes, but is not limited to, blackmail, request to uninstall the game, verbal violence, begging, rationalizing, threatening etc. And if the player just doesn't give two fucks, it just won't work. I'm talking worst of the worst here, there aren't a lot of those in this community right now. But that will change eventually; and if players cannot be arsed to respect their captain, that captain is going to take a lot of heat because he cannot control his crew.
And yes, I think positive measures should be available for the willing. I'm not a dick that just kicks people because they perform badly. I'm usually one of the guys that can make bad players perform well if they are prepared to listen. It's the players that refuse to listen or explicitly refuse to take orders from the captain that will do nothing but cause frustration and severely hurt the captain's patience. Again, those players aren't the problem now, but they will be in the future.
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Well, one of the problems with DoTa2 is Steam gives that game away quite often.
Seriously. I got 5 copies for no reason, and I'm sure many of you did too.
People aren't going to spend 15 bucks on the game thinking to themselves "I'm gonna go piss everyone off!" And even if they did, they would probably buy a more populated game.
Trolls in this game usually were interested at some point, but found the game too hard or had no proper teacher and decided that pissing everyone off was the only way they could get their money's worth.
9 times out of 10, I've found that simply tolerating a troll and politely asking them to do simple tasks will result in them doing that task. Praising them for doing that simple task often results in them doing more simple tasks.
As for that other time?
Report 'em, block 'em, and follow RomanKar's advice: Kick yourself.
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Tarcide till the troll leaves. If they have no guns to shoot and nothing to do but stand around in a black cloud, they leave. Take away their minimal means of enjoyment and you take away their desire to troll the match. Its simple, it works. They have no way to take the captain's wheel to relieve themselves so without guns they leave to find other targets.
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Well, one of the problems with DoTa2 is Steam gives that game away quite often.
Seriously. I got 5 copies for no reason, and I'm sure many of you did too.
People aren't going to spend 15 bucks on the game thinking to themselves "I'm gonna go piss everyone off!" And even if they did, they would probably buy a more populated game.
Trolls in this game usually were interested at some point, but found the game too hard or had no proper teacher and decided that pissing everyone off was the only way they could get their money's worth.
9 times out of 10, I've found that simply tolerating a troll and politely asking them to do simple tasks will result in them doing that task. Praising them for doing that simple task often results in them doing more simple tasks.
As for that other time?
Report 'em, block 'em, and follow RomanKar's advice: Kick yourself.
That's what the HoN community also said. First it was "Matchmaking will fix this"; it didn't. Then it was "Retail will fix this" and again it just didn't. While anyone here knows that the high from winning a difficult game is much higher than just messing around (this kind of high: http://www.destructoid.com/two-hours-of-gaming-doing-a-line-of-coke-174520.phtml), there's a ton of younger players that just want to fuck around and you will suffer for it.
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The prediction that this game will even approach the trollness of LOL or Dota 2 is absolutely false.
As I've stated before, this game is not about teamwork as much as it's about cooperation -- real cooperation. Those that can cooperate and act civilly and not be assholes will thrive. Those that can't do those things, which almost no game out there encourages much less mandates like GOIO, will stop playing, quickly.
In short, it takes a different kind of player to enjoy and have success in this game.
I will go even further and say that a kick feature would actually cause the community, and therefore the game, to suffer. I mean, God forbid we actually make people somewhat get along and talk about stuff like real live human beings.
In GOIO you are on a crew, not a team. Crews have to work together. Teams don't, see baseball, LOL, Dota 2, COD, etc, etc, etc.
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I think Muse has the right approach to how a multiplayer game should be - the player base is exceptional and it is encouraged to be that way by the game mechanics, hence why games that reward players for individual efforts whilst being teamed tend to have horrendous predatory player bases.
Personally speaking I've only personally been witness to 3 troll events, all in the last 4 weeks or so and in all 3 cases the trollage was stopped quickly either by the report mechanism, or through intervention of CAs. Players are given the chance to be responsible, and 99% step up to that, it is good to see. I'd almost given up on multiplayer games.
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Hey guys, what's going on in here?
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Everyone is talking about an insta-kick feature and how it could be abused. why not have a VOTE-to-kick feature. everyone decides how the person is behaving and wether or not its worthy of a kick? almost all the players i've met are clever individuals with a sensible manner and do not seem like they would be prone to abusing such a power.
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Everyone is talking about an insta-kick feature and how it could be abused. why not have a VOTE-to-kick feature. everyone decides how the person is behaving and wether or not its worthy of a kick? almost all the players i've met are clever individuals with a sensible manner and do not seem like they would be prone to abusing such a power.
This is a bad idea for the reasons I stated above. The vote to kick would only promote cliques and non-communication with outsiders. I can't even say how many times last night a person was asked to move to make room for someone's friend or crew mate. In every single case the person who was asked just moved.
It's not just a matter of efficiency. Vote kicking, or just a kick button is certainly efficient, but it is contrary to the very nature and design of the game. It would change the player base for the worse, imo.
Besides, as others have stated, there are always Devs and CA's on to help with any problem. For example, last night there was a bit of some spamming in regional chat. Someone in our lobby mentioned that it was getting a little annoying. Keyvias just so happened to be in our lobby, so he asked for the spamming to stop.
How easy and beautiful is that.
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so you have a ship and 3 trolls spawn in and kick you off - wacha gonna do?
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Vote to kick still doesn't solve the aspect of dealing with the kick-ie first.
I know most to all of us here would use vote to kick as a last-resort thing, but what of the other players?
The only way kicking could ever be implemented is if there was some way to make sure that there was an attempt to communicate first.
Also, new players. We don't want those willing to learn to be kicked only because the 3 new guys that jumped on ship before hand weren't.
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Do you guys remember those other threads about kick function implementation? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
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Everyone is talking about an insta-kick feature and how it could be abused. why not have a VOTE-to-kick feature. everyone decides how the person is behaving and wether or not its worthy of a kick? almost all the players i've met are clever individuals with a sensible manner and do not seem like they would be prone to abusing such a power.
This is a bad idea for the reasons I stated above. The vote to kick would only promote cliques and non-communication with outsiders. I can't even say how many times last night a person was asked to move to make room for someone's friend or crew mate. In every single case the person who was asked just moved.
It's not just a matter of efficiency. Vote kicking, or just a kick button is certainly efficient, but it is contrary to the very nature and design of the game. It would change the player base for the worse, imo.
Besides, as others have stated, there are always Devs and CA's on to help with any problem. For example, last night there was a bit of some spamming in regional chat. Someone in our lobby mentioned that it was getting a little annoying. Keyvias just so happened to be in our lobby, so he asked for the spamming to stop.
How easy and beautiful is that.
Noone came to my rescue when I needed some troll removed from my team yesterday. CAs couldn't kick him and Muse wasn't even online. Furthermore, people are not inclined to kick when the person they want moved or removed is friendly and communicative. Kicks are not your primary form of communication, they are there at the end of the line when all other manipulative tools have been exhausted. Then if kicking doesn't work, then a CA or Dev needs to step in.
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Noone came to my rescue when I needed some troll removed from my team yesterday.
I wasn't witness to what happened, but there is one thing that I think is worth bringing up - lack of response can be a language issue sometimes - I usually run through "Do you speak English", "Sprachen sie Deutsch", "Parlez vous Francaise", "govorit' na russkom yazyke?" at which point they'll usually respond with what language they speak. You might not be able to comm but at least you know they're not trolling you.
However, a confirmed trolling, ie you speak the same language and they are clearly being ass-chapeaux, then use the report function, ask everyone in the game lobby to use the report function then tell the troll they will probably lose their account, I've only had to do this once with a crew of 3 trolls, but they left the match immediately.
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so you have a ship and 3 trolls spawn in and kick you off - wacha gonna do?
I'll report them and then find another game in less then a minute.
That said, I haven't seen many trolls in this game.
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Institute a requirement-to-join function. A Captain would be able to set minimum level, required class, required mic usage, and required amount of thumbs-ups. Those things ought to be useful for something, anyway.
Problem solved. No kick function necessary.
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Not too sure about the others, particularly commendations, but required class would be really nice.
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I don't know much about coding, but would it be too far of a leap to include requested A.I. classes from there?
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I've wanted chosen AI a lot. I don't understand why we must tollerate random AIs.
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so you have a ship and 3 trolls spawn in and kick you off - wacha gonna do?
I'll report them and then find another game in less then a minute.
That said, I haven't seen many trolls in this game.
I was referring to having a kick vote used against you - a common occurrence in any multiplayer game with a kick vote, and I'm sure that's one of the reasons Muse doesn't want to implement it.
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Institute a requirement-to-join function. A Captain would be able to set minimum level, required class, required mic usage, and required amount of thumbs-ups. Those things ought to be useful for something, anyway.
Problem solved. No kick function necessary.
That's a pretty good idea. The kick function should still be there for damage control(in case one of the players didn't take his medication).
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I was referring to having a kick vote used against you - a common occurrence in any multiplayer game with a kick vote, and I'm sure that's one of the reasons Muse doesn't want to implement it.
It's not common for people to be kicked without reason. I've already provided you with examples of how players kick and how dedicated they are in kicking you once you trigger them. The trick simply is not to trigger them and you won't get kicked. I have played that game(Alliance of Variant Arms) for a few years and I got kicked maybe 30 times? My behavior in 15 of those 30 times might have been questionable, the other 15 times was when I entered standard level games with a noob account(we call those the green ranks), which are more likely to be dicks in the first place. And at such a point, it just happens; and you move on to the next game. But still, 30 kicks for over 1000 games, it's not really a number to worry about.
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It's not common for people to be kicked without reason.
You are working with the supposition that you'll be dealing with people willing or at least able to dialogue and compromise, in short like yourself.
Trolls don't tend to do either, as the point of trolling isn't to be reasonable - it is to provoke a strong reaction for kicks. Trolls are quite inventive, continually calling kick votes so you get a dialogue opening up every 2 seconds during matches, teaming with other trolls to kick teamates or on servers that don't have manual kick votes but kick for certain behaviours, needling team-mates into committing kickable offences so they are auto-kicked. Then they switch sides and do it all again, rinse and repeat.
Vote kicks may pander to your desire to get revenge but kicking and kick votes are so open to abuse that in many multi player games with those functions, most public servers remove the ability to kick vote for casual users, totally defeating the kick system. In other words vote kicks make more trouble than they actually solve.
In GoIOL, besides the typical chat troll blurping out white power slogans or slagging off <insert religion/cultural icon here>, I've witnessed/been party to 3 trolling events at at different levels of escalation (all in the past month I might though this may be coincidence - I was forced to stop playing for a couple of months). The first was settled by the players in the match through verbal reasoning, the second by getting a CA involved as the players in the match didn't carry enough weight for the player and the 3rd went as far as getting a Muse representative (all of whom are empowered with kick bans) involved before the player began listening to verbal reasoning. In all 3 cases the end result was the trolling stopped and normal play resumed uninterrupted, for me that is a system that works.
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No, I'm speaking from experience. People don't just get kicked, not in AVA, not in quakeworld, not in quakelive and not in quake3 or any other game up to this point. People have always been consenting adults with these kind of things and it has worked out great so far.
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People are still discussing the lack of a kick function in this thread? Realy?
Aside from the fact that you have completely deviated from the point of this thread, the discussion is pretty pointless, sinse this function will never get implemented in this game most likely.
And to add the real discussion, in my opinion lack of variety is what this game doesn't have and costs it a lot of population and despite how much I love it, I've started feeling it strongly.
Due to how the weapons work some weapon slots have defacto weapons that go in them, even light weaponry that has a variety of weapons is limited due to the efficiency of some. As for the heavy guns, there are only 4 of them, 1 of which is just a bigger finisher than the regular flak, which is pretty boring for a heavy gun.
At least 1 of the ships of this game is pretty horrible in the most played game mode, which is 2v2. Ships with light weapons end up being the same each time and ships with heavy weapons have limited choices, let alone the mere existance of the Galleon cripples the introduction of new heavy guns since everything needs to be balanced around it.
Also the last update didn't realy add much, the ship is fine and all, but still, just like the Spire, too weak to hold on its own and countered very easily. The mine launcher is a fun gun, but not used due to the wonky nature of it, so yeah I'm ranting about the lack of weapons used and lack of variety of the heavier weapons.
I want more guns.. v .v
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Weapons themselves don't create variety. It's the game modes and the area's you end up in.
I was thinking about having weapon pick ups back again. Ships get their basic weapon that can do some things but not all things. They can chose the mount point and that is it, there's one point filled with a weapon slot. Then after the game starts, the ship has to move around the map to get the weapons it needs. Same way health and armor pickups can be done. (Yes, it's a throwback to the 90s; quake ftw :D)
Also, a variation on capture the flag would be nice. Hmph, defense of the ancients anyone?:D 5 vs 5 zeppelin style of course :D
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No, I'm speaking from experience. People don't just get kicked, not in AVA, not in quakeworld, not in quakelive and not in quake3 or any other game up to this point. People have always been consenting adults with these kind of things and it has worked out great so far.
Good to see you in game - lets play a match or 2 together next time.
Anyway back to the debate. I have to admit though - I find your position paradoxical, if everyone is behaving like adults why do you feel you need a kick option? Yet I'm the one saying (a small minority of) persistently unreasonable players exist and need to be handled in a different manner.
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No, I'm speaking from experience. People don't just get kicked, not in AVA, not in quakeworld, not in quakelive and not in quake3 or any other game up to this point. People have always been consenting adults with these kind of things and it has worked out great so far.
Good to see you in game - lets play a match or 2 together next time.
Anyway back to the debate. I have to admit though - I find your position paradoxical, if everyone is behaving like adults why do you feel you need a kick option? Yet I'm the one saying (a small minority of) persistently unreasonable players exist and need to be handled in a different manner.
I didn't say everyone, I said people, as in people in general. Of course there's a percentage of people that are the targets of kicks because they are obviously not behaving like adults.
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No, I'm speaking from experience. People don't just get kicked, not in AVA, not in quakeworld, not in quakelive and not in quake3 or any other game up to this point. People have always been consenting adults with these kind of things and it has worked out great so far.
Good to see you in game - lets play a match or 2 together next time.
Anyway back to the debate. I have to admit though - I find your position paradoxical, if everyone is behaving like adults why do you feel you need a kick option? Yet I'm the one saying (a small minority of) persistently unreasonable players exist and need to be handled in a different manner.
I didn't say everyone, I said people, as in people in general. Of course there's a percentage of people that are the targets of kicks because they are obviously not behaving like adults.
Of which there is a subset who are intentionally not behaving like adults and who will look for any mechanism they can use to disrupt. In GoIOL for the most part this means typing inflammatory texts and or having inflammatory player or ship names as this is the only avenue open. Was in a doozy of a match lobby with a couple of these types yesterday, I'm not going into details as this kind of person thrives on being talked about, however they "refused" to accept their player and ship names were offensive and went on to further push their, ahem, cause in voice chat. Suffice to say they bit off more than the could chew, and left the lobby after a few matches.
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I agree with Echoez. Specifically, I want more guns that I think are useful. I end up passing over so many guns since they seem to not be as effective as others. Beefing up the ones we have in usefulness would be a good start. What's strange is that the ones I don't use are seen in battle quite a lot. Do people just think they're fun to use? I admit to being confused on that one. On a side note, I think this game might not be very user friendly. What I mean is that maybe people just never realize much about the guns they're using. I like the suggestions people have made of being able to place actual GoIO ships into practice mode to see how effective the guns truely are against them before entering into a real battle with an experimental design. This would help out dramatically for new players learning the guns.
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The thing about guns is anyone of them can be spectacularly lethal in the right hands , like ships, if you play to their strengths they can achieve interesting results.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be anymore guns ever, but even something as humble and overlooked as the banshee can wreak havoc if you know how to use it.
Personally speaking I know I can take a pyra or junker with gat/ flak or gat/ mortar and rack up kills, but if you don't mix stuff up, it gets stale fast, so I will often take a load out that is more challenging to get kills with, and in the process perhaps stumble on a hidden gem (looking at you flare gun).
The other aspect is that some guns require a deeper understanding of their restrictions, like the flak or the lumberjack. Or a deeper understanding of the ammo types and how they affect the weapons, like lochnagar.
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.... the process perhaps stumble on a hidden gem .
like mobula with full mine set?
secret op!
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like mobula with full mine set?
secret op!
Once I Fougth a Mobula with 4 mine launchers and a Harpoon, that pilot was a genius.