Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: GeoRmr on October 27, 2014, 03:16:21 pm
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In the live version of GoI 1.3.8(445) player levels are now censored in lobbies. What is the communities opinion of this change?
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I don't really like it. It's nice to see what level of experience people have without having to click their names (in particular, if there is a new player I will go out of my way to guide them through the lobby and what loadout to take and everything and show them engineering tricks in-game), and also it is aesthetically pleasing to have a crew of all 45s in competitive matches.
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As a person who frequently play as the pilot/commander, I'd like to know the capabilities of my crew.
Of course, the levels are not the best, direct representation of player skills, but it is a good estimate of their experience.
And also, if I see that my opponents are 1s and 3s, I can safely enjoy a cheese-build (Harpoon Pyramidion, Munker, Flame Spire, etc). When I don't know my opponent's experience, I won't be at ease cheesing.
Of course, I can click on every new name in the lobby, but that's inconvenient.
I'm assuming this is a move to make the community more novice-friendly. However the community isn't biased against new players, but at new players who refuses to communicate. (I know, because I'm quite new to the game myself. You guys are awesome, btw).
So, I don't see what hiding levels are good for.
Thank you for reading, :)
Indreams
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You should still be able to see the levels of players on your ship.
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sorry, I didn't get to actually test the new patch, ::)
But yea, I'd still like to see my enemy's level, and the level of my allied ship.
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I miss the time before levels where people feared you based on what you did to them (and what ever lies I managed to spread about Zill's superhuman flying ability). I think the hiding of levels is a cosmetic fix to inherent flaws in the match making system. Still I would prefer people not make assumptions about how good I am until they actually see how good I am.
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Hiding levels does nothing except making us make this dozen clicks more to check on the levels. Riddiculous, unwanted, take it back ASAP.
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I miss the time before levels where people feared you based on what you did to them (and what ever lies I managed to spread about Zill's superhuman flying ability). I think the hiding of levels is a cosmetic fix to inherent flaws in the match making system. Still I would prefer people not make assumptions about how good I am until they actually see how good I am.
I remember those days, when I first ran into Spaceman back during the beta I had no idea who he was, when I later ran into him a while later I feared, I feared hard.
That aside however I have to agree, I like to see who I'll be flying beside and who I'll be flying against.
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Someone said my name?
My biggest thing is that they worked so hard to create this whole new leveling system, only to hide it (ish).
I can understand the viewpoint that new players were mistakenly using them as a means to show balance (glicko2 has nothing to do with our levels), but that just needs communicating in some fashion.
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Someone said my name?
My biggest thing is that they worked so hard to create this whole new leveling system, only to hide it (ish).
I can understand the viewpoint that new players were mistakenly using them as a means to show balance (glicko2 has nothing to do with our levels), but that just needs communicating in some fashion.
Thing is, there is literally a disclaimer in text in the bottom left corner of every lobby now telling people that matchmaking isn't derived from levels. So why they need to go and hide them, I don't know. Its not like we can't just - click on each others names to see them. Or read anything in text chat... Nonsensical design imho.
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Idk then. I don't think its a change that will stick around forever, unless they go full tilt and remove every "cheat" to peer at people's levels.
Anyone remember when they removed global chat? Yea that didn't last very long.
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I have every confidence that they will revert it to show levels again - the more stink we make the faster it will happen, and its made me pretty angry - so -
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There's a certain point where you go from "stern feedback" to "that guy who also thinks Muse is spending our kickstarter money on hats for their pets." And I'm not saying you're the latter. Just a poor imagining, if you will.
One is taken seriously, the other is borderline ignored. Im sure they are getting plenty of feedback from all facets.
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Good job I didn't back the kickstarter
Shit - I guess i would be pretty angry about that also.
Don't worry, I do know my personal feedback is directly ignored by muse - if past experience is anything to go by ^^
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(45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45):
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(45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45): (45):
???
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Levels showing up in chat looks really silly.
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I don't like it. whether it's a good change or a bad change, I don't know...but I don't like it at all.
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Levels showing up in chat looks really silly.
It does. I think muse wants to give Vets some way of indicating they know what they are doing when they give advice to newbie crew mates, but attaching a level indicator to every message you send is kind of silly. I prefer to wait until we are in game and they can see my hat. The hat conveys authority and power, kneel before the hat.
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so if I prefer talking rather than typing nobody gets to see my level? why not take the system a step further and have your number pop up next to your name when you're using voice chat too?
Or just... show levels again, since this seems to serve absolutely no purpose?
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This is horrible, I only get to notice at how crazy unbalanced matches (lvl 40s vs lvl 1s for instance).
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This almost feels like a..."well they didn't like MM so lets play with this and see if that works."
I see no point in hiding it, just as I see no point in them dumbing down stats. Removing death stats because some people are afraid to see how much they suck? Maybe? I guess that is why its gone. Now hiding levels so we can't go around waving it at others? Well, newsflash, this isn't 6yr old soccer where everyone gets a prize for just standing around picking their noses! Nor is this a game where levels mean much, especially not now where it is all experience based. Eventually everyone is going to be 45 and then it really isn't going to matter. Which is how MMOs work. Eventually the majority of your population hits endgame. The time when seeing max level players and cowering in fear doesn't last long.
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1st: I assume they were hiding our levels to encourage the pilots to take ships based on what they want to do not based on your enemy's level. If you say "ah, how cute there is a lvl 1 enemy crew. let's take a harpoon kidding ship". If you feel like you're able to handle the ship you'll bring to the fight no matter which level the enemies are, the better is the match going to be for the individuum itself.
Someone said the levels do not indicate the skill of a player thus we should not be concerned about wether we see the levels or not. To my harpoon example; A lvl 1 enemy ship still can be better than you (saying you fly a PUG) so you need to be confident flying your kind of ship independent of the enemy's level.
To say if one is good or not we first have to fly against him!
2nd: the levels shown in the chat looks silly, just silly.
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Showing levels wasn't just a way of letting more experienced players recognize player competence, but it was also a way to help new players judge the level of their enemies so that they could decide whether they wanted to go against them or not. I used to tell new players to watch out for player levels and choose matches based on that. As a level one captain you might want to reconsider going against two level 30 ones and you might want to find another lobby with people around your level. (Please do not tell me that levels show no relation to player experience or competence, in most cases it is quite easy to guess match outcomes based on just that single aspect.)
With level visibility partially gone, experienced players can still easily judge the situation (you can click on names or just check out ship loadouts, look at crew setups, familiar names, let's be honest, this is a small community, we know each other etc), but new players are at a disadvantage because they cannot even rely on level indicators anymore. Also, I am not quite convinced that one's hidden match rating is a valid indicator of one's actual in-game performance, so you can never be entirely sure that the people you were placed against by the matchmaker system will really be at your level and competence. Even if there was no human involvement in lobby setups, the glicko system could overlook certain aspects of the gameplay.
Just to give an example, I often like to join suicide sides for fun, eg ships that the captains have abandoned in ongoing matches or ships with three powder monkeys on it. Even if realize that I am on a losing side, I often stay through the match, especially if I had fun with some players on the ship. Because of that I have a lot of lost games, and I guess my rating is quite low (in fact I noticed that I keep getting placed by matchmaker into lobbies with level 10 people around hehehe). Yet, if I am placed into a good crew on a strong side, I can be as competent as many other players whose rating must be much higher than mine. The rating system will mark me as a weaker member, and will consider the match "balanced", but we will still most likely win the round. Wouldn't my actual player level be more accurate in this case?
Also, what is the point of hiding levels before a match starts, and revealing them during the match (tabbing) or after it? It feels like a bad surprise for low levels (BEFORE MATCH: "Hey guys, don't worry, we should be fine, it's gonna be fun" DURING MATCH: "Dang it, look at all those high levels on the other side!!") :D
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What Andika said.
I believe that levels are valid representation of experience. Experience matters in this game. Engineering improves when the engineer knows the time it takes to go from component to component. Gunning improves when the gunner knows what ammo to use on which gun on which situation. Piloting improves when the pilot knows the movement and the gun arcs of ships.
So, hiding level is just inconvenient right now.
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It's funny to see how reliant people have become on little things that the beta-vets didn't want in the first place.
Levels? People said that they preferred their names to be recognized rather than a number.
Flags? People thought they made the ships look clunky and out of place.
Achievements? People complained about how they don't accurately represent experience.
I personally prefer that the levels don't show up in the lobbies. In fact, I'd prefer we didn't have a lot of things that make this game easier/give arbitrary information. Heck, I don't even like the fact you can see another ship's loadout.
I support the idea of less information being available and letting actions of the players define how good they are, not a number.
I also would prefer a hardcore mode with basically NO information handed out on a silver platter.
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I have every confidence that they will revert it to show levels again - the more stink we make the faster it will happen, and its made me pretty angry - so -
Let me leave a scent mark here.
Hiding the match making value and showing a level which correlates with experience/time played is not uncommon btw (e.g. Hawken and LoL do the same).
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I want my levels back.
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***I wish we could vote up the replies we like...would make it much easier to see what people are backing on these forums***
I want my levels back.
^^ I agree
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It's funny to see how reliant people have become on little things that the beta-vets didn't want in the first place.
Levels? People said that they preferred their names to be recognized rather than a number.
Flags? People thought they made the ships look clunky and out of place.
Achievements? People complained about how they don't accurately represent experience.
I personally prefer that the levels don't show up in the lobbies. In fact, I'd prefer we didn't have a lot of things that make this game easier/give arbitrary information. Heck, I don't even like the fact you can see another ship's loadout.
I support the idea of less information being available and letting actions of the players define how good they are, not a number.
I also would prefer a hardcore mode with basically NO information handed out on a silver platter.
The point is that they were in the game in the first place - not having something is fine, taking something away - that's how you piss off a lot of people.
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I think levels are a loose indication of experience, but not a valid one. hell, one of my buddies had been stuck at level 6 pilot forever because he refused to fly Junker. he's a good captain and definitely one of the best squid pilots I've crewed for, and his level...18 or 19 now? does not do him justice.
whereas I frankly feel like my pilot level is too high XD
there's definitely correlation between skill and level, but yeah, it's pretty loose.
I miss my levels too, but at its core, the thing I don't like about the change is that a great degree of the reward is gone.
possible alternate solutions:
-make titles more public, instead of levels.
-making when you level more public, and probably the rank you've leveled into public at that point as well, even if the level isn't.
thoughts?
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I think levels are a loose indication of experience, but not a valid one. hell, one of my buddies had been stuck at level 6 pilot forever because he refused to fly Junker. he's a good captain and definitely one of the best squid pilots I've crewed for, and his level...18 or 19 now? does not do him justice.
But that's why the levels are a good indication of experience.
He never flew a junker; he didn't have experience on a junker. Therefore he was at a low level.
When we were under the achievement system, higher levels meant: "he's probably fired the hwacha x times, he's probably piloted a Goldfish x times, he's probably extinguished x number of fires." Sure the it was probably, but as the levels get higher, it was most likely.
I don't begrudge the new system. Now friends like yours or me (who has yet to use drogue chute) can get an appropriate level.
Although my appropriate level is probably 15...
With the new system, levels represent a mix of games played, games won, and achievements unlocked, which is experience.
That aside, I do like your suggestion of making titles more public. That's just aesthetically more pleasing. Salute to you sir, for that idea.
;)
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you do have a point, but the way the achievements stacked, he didn't get any achievements due to him for the other ships he flew that were locked away behind the junker achievement, and therefore that experience was not counted towards his levels.
I'm a miss, btw :) and thank you!
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shaelyn, not at all. You did have a valid point. Mine was just more valid. lol, :)
And I love your idea of making titles more public. I think that's a good, aesthetically-pleasing solution.
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forum polls is the worst form of data gathering, just saying ;)
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forum polls is the worst form of data gathering, just saying ;)
I know, Muse employees keep voting yes to level hiding.
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+1 agree with everythin Nidh said. Less information, the better. In general one of the main resources to manage in the game is information in general and voice bandwidth specifically.
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The fact that you can click a players name and see the "hidden" information kinda defeats the purpose of hiding that information. All you did was place it behind a small amount of effort, and that effort doesn't really serve any purpose gameplay wise.
Either show the levels, or hide it when clicking on someones name.
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The fact that you can click a players name and see the "hidden" information kinda defeats the purpose of hiding that information. All you did was place it behind a small amount of effort, and that effort doesn't really serve any purpose gameplay wise.
It was meant to stop people from equating in game levels with matchmaking rankings, to stop from people getting into a lobby, seeing numbers they don't like immediately glaring at them on screen and saying screw this, I'm out of here.
I don't know what's so hard to understand about this.
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Probably the part where it doesn't accomplish what you described?
I'm not advocating hiding or showing levels. I'm pointing out that what they implemented is easily bypassed and thus doesn't change anything.
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The fact that you can click a players name and see the "hidden" information kinda defeats the purpose of hiding that information. All you did was place it behind a small amount of effort, and that effort doesn't really serve any purpose gameplay wise.
It was meant to stop people from equating in game levels with matchmaking rankings, to stop from people getting into a lobby, seeing numbers they don't like immediately glaring at them on screen and saying screw this, I'm out of here.
I don't know what's so hard to understand about this.
Hiding can't stop people from equating in game levels with matchmaking ranking when it is obvious after playing a match (regardless of if you can see levels or not) when the lobby isn't balanced. Sometimes it's obvious even before a match starts based on what kind of load outs a player has. You can't say that putting level 40+ in lobbies with 1-10's is balanced in any way shape or form. The levels are not everything but it sure helps 40+ players know when a lobby is going to be completely unbalanced so they can try to "balance" it by switch sides or giving advice and this can only happen when they can actually see levels. If we got rid of levels completely, or the ability to see them at least, whats going to happen is high levels players will mostly use custom matches and lower levels will use match making. (this is already a trend happening in game now). So hiding levels or getting rid of them completely is just going to divide the games player base or have some people leave completely. It's not fun for new players to get stomp and it's not fun for high levels to pub stomp.
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The fact that you can click a players name and see the "hidden" information kinda defeats the purpose of hiding that information. All you did was place it behind a small amount of effort, and that effort doesn't really serve any purpose gameplay wise.
It was meant to stop people from equating in game levels with matchmaking rankings, to stop from people getting into a lobby, seeing numbers they don't like immediately glaring at them on screen and saying screw this, I'm out of here.
I don't know what's so hard to understand about this.
Hiding can't stop people from equating in game levels with matchmaking ranking when it is obvious after playing a match (regardless of if you can see levels or not) when the lobby isn't balanced. Sometimes it's obvious even before a match starts based on what kind of load outs a player has. You can't say that putting level 40+ in lobbies with 1-10's is balanced in any way shape or form. The levels are not everything but it sure helps 40+ players know when a lobby is going to be completely unbalanced so they can try to "balance" it by switch sides or giving advice and this can only happen when they can actually see levels. If we got rid of levels completely, or the ability to see them at least, whats going to happen is high levels players will mostly use custom matches and lower levels will use match making. (this is already a trend happening in game now). So hiding levels or getting rid of them completely is just going to divide the games player base or have some people leave completely. It's not fun for new players to get stomp and it's not fun for high levels to pub stomp.
But looking at loadouts is already an advanced for of gameplay, and looking up each individual's levels on their profile page takes a lot more effort, having to click on each person.
The point of level hiding in lobbies was to stop newish folks from getting put in a lobby, seeing higher level numbers on the other team and leaving immediately because they're convinced it's going to be a stomping (aka equating in game levels with your mmr. It was never to get rid of levels completely or to diminish the time it took to get it.
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But looking at loadouts is already an advanced for of gameplay, and looking up each individual's levels on their profile page takes a lot more effort, having to click on each person.
The point of level hiding in lobbies was to stop newish folks from getting put in a lobby, seeing higher level numbers on the other team and leaving immediately because they're convinced it's going to be a stomping (aka equating in game levels with your mmr. It was never to get rid of levels completely or to diminish the time it took to get it.
So you rather have the new players (1-10 level) stay in a lobby that is stacked get 5-0 and rage quick because the game isn't fair? This risks losing new players when the whole point is to try and grow our community.
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But looking at loadouts is already an advanced for of gameplay, and looking up each individual's levels on their profile page takes a lot more effort, having to click on each person.
The point of level hiding in lobbies was to stop newish folks from getting put in a lobby, seeing higher level numbers on the other team and leaving immediately because they're convinced it's going to be a stomping (aka equating in game levels with your mmr. It was never to get rid of levels completely or to diminish the time it took to get it.
So you rather have the new players (1-10 level) stay in a lobby that is stacked get 5-0 and rage quick because the game isn't fair? This risks losing new players when the whole point is to try and grow our community.
No, but as we heard, a big problem with matchmaking right now is people who get put in a lobby and leave right away.
As I, and Muse, has stated, this was done solely to disassociate levels from MMR.
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No, but as we heard, a big problem with matchmaking right now is people who get put in a lobby and leave right away.
As I, and Muse, has stated, this was done solely to disassociate levels from MMR.
I can understand why it was done. That not the issue here. But what is the larger issue...players jumping out of lobby to find a better suited lobby to their skill level or players leaving the game completely because they continuously get stomped because the match making system does not work as intended? I would think that losing players or players finding the game unfair and not fun would be the much larger issue here.
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No, but as we heard, a big problem with matchmaking right now is people who get put in a lobby and leave right away.
As I, and Muse, has stated, this was done solely to disassociate levels from MMR.
I can understand why it was done. That not the issue here. But what is the larger issue...players jumping out of lobby to find a better suited lobby to their skill level or players leaving the game completely because they continuously get stomped because the match making system does not work as intended? I would think that losing players or players finding the game unfair and not fun would be the much larger issue here.
The issue is that jumping out of a lobby hurts the matchmaking system itself (I don't know the specifics behind this, but it's what Keyvias and Bubbles I believe have stated).
The point is that a side with lvl, say, 20s, can easily beat a side of 30s, but if someone comes in and sees the disparity in numbers pertaining to levels that have no actual bearing on skill and leaves because of it, it's actively hurting Matchmaking system.
Look there are a lot of fights to pick with Matchmaking; this is not one of them. This is such a non issue that having 3 pages of posts about it baffles me.
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The point is that a side with lvl, say, 20s, can easily beat a side of 30s, but if someone comes in and sees the disparity in numbers pertaining to levels that have no actual bearing on skill and leaves because of it, it's actively hurting Matchmaking system.
Look there are a lot of fights to pick with Matchmaking; this is not one of them. This is such a non issue that having 3 pages of posts about it baffles me.
This isn't about match making, it's about hiding levels. I agree that the 20's can beat the 30's such as 30's can beat 40's. My stance has been to give back our levels, so they aren't hiding so that when there are lobbies full of 1-10's and 40+ players, those players can try to balance. These are https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,5019.0.html (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,5019.0.html) the type of matches in which IF we saw the levels before hand we could try to balance the lobby. (Once again this is about being able to view levels, not fixing match making)
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The point is that a side with lvl, say, 20s, can easily beat a side of 30s, but if someone comes in and sees the disparity in numbers pertaining to levels that have no actual bearing on skill and leaves because of it, it's actively hurting Matchmaking system.
Look there are a lot of fights to pick with Matchmaking; this is not one of them. This is such a non issue that having 3 pages of posts about it baffles me.
This isn't about match making, it's about hiding levels. I agree that the 20's can beat the 30's such as 30's can beat 40's. My stance has been to give back our levels, so they aren't hiding so that when there are lobbies full of 1-10's and 40+ players, those players can try to balance. These are https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,5019.0.html (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,5019.0.html) the type of matches in which IF we saw the levels before hand we could try to balance the lobby. (Once again this is about being able to view levels, not fixing match making)
But there's no attempt at player balance. People just leave.
I don't see any particular benefit in displaying levels in matches, all it does is spread misinformation.
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I see that it is more likely for low levels to leave, high levels to try to balance. And like I stated before I much rather any level player leaving (yes, i know this screws with match making, but everyone already knows match making needs work hence Muse's next hotfix but this isn't about that) when they see a lobby isn't going to work out for their skill set instead of losing new players because they find the game frustrating and unfair because it is a pub stomp. It is much more fun for players to play with and against similar levels then a 5-0 game. I thought the new leveling system was all about ranking a player on experience in the game and not achievements so if that is true showing levels should show experience which I have found to be true.
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Well yeah but game experience is not the same thing as your Matchmaking ranking. There's certainly going to be some correlation, but you want to make sure that the perception isn't that balance is done through game levels.
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I really wonder why they would carry over levels from achievements to the current level system. With how you gain levels now you could use that as a more accurate level system but by carrying over the old level you get some inaccurate representation.
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For some reason this Matrix scene came to mind after reading this..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWaxF8jlnm0
I think, quoting previous posters key words, "how you gain levels" is the actual issue here. Maybe even solution. As long as farming is possible the levels and achievements really just say, in the end, "i used x amount of time to gain this". But.. you have to get halfway to realise that. Many other games use levels in a very different way. Some don't have numbers at all and (OMG) there are even games that lack levels all together, even achievements, and can still be very enjoyable.
Firstly, i didn't vote because the option to completely remove the levels all together isn't there. Why does the game need them? There could be just an indicator of how long you've played or nothing at all. Personally, i wouldn't mind. Hardest thing is to find something that won't get exploited or turned into something about matchmaking or a dogfight of opinions with half truths. Keep a game alive, clean and fair is much more important than whining about levels imho.
Secondly, using levels as an excuse for new players leaving the lobby/match/game and vets switching to another is a poor excuse. There's much more to this game than levels. Hidden levels hasn't really made any significant difference either. Nothing really noticable. Still see players leave, switch lobby, ragequit.. just like before with levels 1-15, too, in the pre-matchmaking, "old" level world. The reasons? No lobbytimer, maybe? Meaning they won't have time to get a decent loadout. Poor shipbuild. No patience. Moodswing. Offensive voicechat. Unresponsive crew. Trolls. Stacks. Stomps.
I don't know why Muse wanted levels in this game when they were made. I haven't played that long. Maybe it was primarily for fun and an indicator/reward for the player? It doesn't feel like that at all anymore. Instead it feels like a burden or just a number.
I would feel better if Novices had a fair chance, instead of getting killed by a harsh lobby, to have a fair amount of time to practise, learn and enjoy the game more. That IS one of the reasons it was put there, though not really helpful. Something else has to be done to achieve a balance and more stable gaming experience and the devs (last fireside) are working on it. Hidden levels or not, doesn't really matter at all for the game itself. It's cosmetic at most.
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Well yeah but game experience is not the same thing as your Matchmaking ranking. There's certainly going to be some correlation, but you want to make sure that the perception isn't that balance is done through game levels.
I agree Imagine. The match making ranking should/is something completely different, I believe it's based on MMR. I'm not advocating for match making to be based on our levels either. But at this point in time since levels show experience and match making is flawed it is the best way to try to help create fair play all around after being placed in an unbalanced match. I love my levels, I worked hard for them BUT what I love more is this game and the future of this game. So if players leaving lobby or balancing their own match based on the level system will help keep more of the new players from the sale, then so be it, until they can hotfix the match making system.
Firstly, i didn't vote because the option to completely remove the levels all together isn't there. Why does the game need them? There could be just an indicator of how long you've played or nothing at all. Personally, i wouldn't mind. Hardest thing is to find something that won't get exploited or turned into something about matchmaking or a dogfight of opinions with half truths. Keep a game alive, clean and fair is much more important than whining about levels imho.
Secondly, using levels as an excuse for new players leaving the lobby/match/game and vets switching to another is a poor excuse. There's much more to this game than levels. Hidden levels hasn't really made any significant difference either. Nothing really noticable. Still see players leave, switch lobby, ragequit.. just like before with levels 1-15, too, in the pre-matchmaking, "old" level world. The reasons? No lobbytimer, maybe? Meaning they won't have time to get a decent loadout. Poor shipbuild. No patience. Moodswing. Offensive voicechat. Unresponsive crew. Trolls. Stacks. Stomps.
I don't know why Muse wanted levels in this game when they were made. I haven't played that long. Maybe it was primarily for fun and an indicator/reward for the player? It doesn't feel like that at all anymore. Instead it feels like a burden or just a number.
I would feel better if Novices had a fair chance, instead of getting killed by a harsh lobby, to have a fair amount of time to practise, learn and enjoy the game more. That IS one of the reasons it was put there, though not really helpful. Something else has to be done to achieve a balance and more stable gaming experience and the devs (last fireside) are working on it. Hidden levels or not, doesn't really matter at all for the game itself. It's cosmetic at most.
I would be just fine with have rank with titles and not numbers instead. And you are very correct geno, there are many more reasons players leave besides just seeing other players levels.