Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Echoez on August 13, 2013, 11:36:03 am
-
Well, I just read through the 1.3.1 Lesmok thread and the Heavy Flak has been brought up a lot, so here is this thread to discuss it.
So, now that 1.3 Lesmok is gone, is the Heavy Flak so seriously hampened that it's not that usable, or is the actual gun broken and needs to be looked at over Lesmok after all?
And to add my input, I do think it is the gun. Opinions anyone?~
/Flakshields
/Flameshields
Fire away~
-
I don't shoot often, so this is just theory.
What if heavy flak had sights similar to the LJ, so you could more easily gauge shots?
-
I think the heavy flak has been nerfed now pretty much.
A sight isn't the solution the heavy flak needs, it needs a bit of work right now again. (Although I agree that a sight might help many players with arcing!) There needs to be much more damage dealt with it - either that or increase the number of shots, so lesmok doesn't decrease it to 1 shot.
-
The Lesmok change really doesn't affect my ships that much, but that's because I ask my gunners to bring charged.
If the flak can only be effective with lesmok, then I think your gunner is at fault. The flak works fine with other ammo types, it just requires a bit more skill. Even the low level gunners that jump aboard seem to do fine without lesmok.
-
It's a gun for far ranges. Why use it on a close range then? That's not the meaning of "far range"...
-
If you increase the ammo to three (then giving two with lesmok), youd want to decrease the damage anyway wouldn't you?
To my knowledge, heavy flak only does explosive damage, where nearly (if not every) every gun has two damage types, so it can perform two roles to some degree. What if you introduced fire damage to it? I mean, it does so much explosive it sets fire to your hull anyway.
(Yea, im really just going on limbs here.)
-
According to this thread- https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2035.msg34983.html#new
we've pretty much agreed the gun itself is useless without a merc. Currently I see no reason to use the heavy flak anymore, particularly with lesmok changes. It's usually a safer bet to use lumberjacks or brawler setups. Personally, I find the lesmok change frustrating and unfounded, since it cripples ranged battles.
-
The Lesmok change really doesn't affect my ships that much, but that's because I ask my gunners to bring charged.
If the flak can only be effective with lesmok, then I think your gunner is at fault. The flak works fine with other ammo types, it just requires a bit more skill. Even the low level gunners that jump aboard seem to do fine without lesmok.
It's physically impossible to hit with charged flak at 1000+ metres, and within 1000 they'll be in arming time before you know it. The gun works best at long range, and with lesmok as it is it simply can't pull it off.
-
Exactly, Sunderland. Once again: Why use guns meant to be used for far ranges if there's no far range fight possible anymore? Nerfing the merc was good and necessary...but nerfing every far range gun? Was that really necessary?
-
It's a gun for far ranges. Why use it on a close range then? That's not the meaning of "far range"...
Sure it can't snipe across Dunes without lesmok, but it's not a short range weapon. Even with charged, it still has enough range to kill an enemy ship before they're in range to use their guns.
-
Increase the base range of the flak then, but last night, my merc/flak Spire was working fine.
-
If you make it too easy to shoot at range, then you will just get merc/heavy flak builds again to insta-kill stuff. Maybe the arming time just hits it too hard currently.
-
lol it feels like the heavy flak is still paying for its ownage in the early days.
-
Try using a Galleon on dunes. Ships pop up from nowhere and you can't do anything about it with far range guns. So, sticking with close range guns? Why not use a Pyra/Junker/Mobula instead? They're faster, have a much higher turning speed and about the same killing power.
Those guns don't fulfill their senses. You don't need to shoot from one edge of the map to another, it hasn't been possible previously. But at least shoot them at a range of more than 500m would be nice.
Far range achievements for the classes are now useless too.
-
lol it feels like the heavy flak is still paying for its ownage in the early days.
And that's the thing... I want the gun to get some kind of help, but I know what kind of monster it could easily become, considering what it used to be.
-
Why not use a Pyra/Junker/Mobula instead? They're faster, have a much higher turning speed and about the same killing power.
I'll let somebody else respond to the rest of your post, but a quick note: of the three ships that you named, only the Pyra is faster than the Galleon.
-
You're right about that, Sunderland. Sorry.
Their maneuvering ability still is higher, their profile is smaller...
-
We need suggestions if this discussion is going to go anywhere. Awkm has already stated rightly that if a gun requires one ammo to work right, the gun is needing the attention.
I've already tried with : 1.reducing arming time 2.adding fire damage (albeit a small amount).
-
My suggestion is to increase the shell life, or increase projectile speed while decreasing arming time so that the shell arms at about the same distance it does now, but the shell itself is going faster.
-
I agree with that. I just wanted to point out that the patch didn't help fixing the problem of those guns. They covered it.
The main problem for far ranged combat (I'm not talking about the merc) are those many clouds. Reducing them a little bit might help. That's it for the LJ.
The flak though has different problems too. Reducing arming time would be nice, but seeing it as a long range weapon I think this was quite a good thing to introduce.
Fire damage is a good idea I gotta say. I'm really digging this one. It's unclear to me, however, if that would help solve the heavy flak's weakness as it is at the moment. Sure, creating an overpowered weapon isn't the goal to achieve. But increasing it's ammo capability might be worth a thought too. Still undecided about that either though.
-
My suggestion is to increase the shell life, or increase projectile speed while decreasing arming time so that the shell arms at about the same distance it does now, but the shell itself is going faster.
I'm with you on this Zenark, a tiny bit more speed (like a 10% increase), a longer shell life (so a normal shot can travel to 1.4 km) and perhaps a shorter arming time (remove a few tenths of a second)
-
My suggestion is to increase the shell life, or increase projectile speed while decreasing arming time so that the shell arms at about the same distance it does now, but the shell itself is going faster.
That would make shots with it with the new lesmok pretty easy to hit, though it's only one shot. I'm not sure of its current range but it can't be that short.
The flak though has different problems too. Reducing arming time would be nice, but seeing it as a long range weapon I think this was quite a good thing to introduce.
Fire damage is a good idea I gotta say. I'm really digging this one. It's unclear to me, however, if that would help solve the heavy flak's weakness as it is at the moment. Sure, creating an overpowered weapon isn't the goal to achieve. But increasing it's ammo capability might be worth a thought too. Still undecided about that either though.
Well for the arming time, it lets you use it when they get too close, but no additional change. The fire damage should give it a tad more bite to hull, so it potentially could be more self sufficient, though we never want it entirely so (remember Fjords....). I've thought about the added ammo, but if you do that, you'd want to decrease the damage so you can't just outright murder things in one clip. Seems redundant if right now we have less ammo but more damage.
-
I'd like to see at least a longer shell life, an extra shell or a sight of some kind.
-
I like the fire damage too.
-
Well for the arming time, it lets you use it when they get too close, but no additional change. The fire damage should give it a tad more bite to hull, so it potentially could be more self sufficient, though we never want it entirely so (remember Fjords....). I've thought about the added ammo, but if you do that, you'd want to decrease the damage so you can't just outright murder things in one clip. Seems redundant if right now we have less ammo but more damage.
I don't want it to become OP, once again making that clear.
Murdering "things" in one clip isn't the goal we want to achieve, you're right with that. But it being achieved with 3 rounds on standard ammo is quite impossible in one clip, if I may say so.
The arming time, once again, is good as it is I think. It shouldn't become a medium to close range gun, we don't want everything to happen on close range, do we? A gun with a range from far to pretty close is overpowered too, so I don't think that's what we want to achieve.
Remember what a heavy flak is built for: to kill. BUT not too quickly and easily. We don't want the flak to become a surpressive or disabling weapon...or do we?
So as said: fire damage might be a good idea, depending on where it would spread to and how much fire damage would be dealt.
I'm with you on this Zenark, a tiny bit more speed (like a 10% increase), a longer shell life (so a normal shot can travel to 1.4 km) and perhaps a shorter arming time (remove a few tenths of a second)
I quite disagree with that, sorry. More speed makes it easier to hit and we don't need it's shots to travel further (we just need to look further through fifty clouds, my opinion), so it would become really easy to use and thus maybe drifting into the "old" heavy flak again.
The flak should stay the gun it is intended to be: A far range gun (without more than 1.2 or 1.4km range) ... and only a far range gun.
-
What about giving it Impact damage as a primary while slightly increasing the secondary Explosive damage?
-
If by impact damage you mean piercing...that would lead to the same problem the old heavy flak had: Too much power.
-
What is it that we want to accomplish with a change, exactly? What are we complaining about? Too hard to use now? Not enough range?
I think it's fine as is, really. Even if it's too hard to use without lesmok, it's still easier to use than a lumberjack. Gunners just need to practice with it more.
What about giving it Impact damage as a primary while slightly increasing the secondary Explosive damage?
.... Long range impact damage? <3
-
Zenark, I think what we want to achieve is to give the heavy flak a use again on, for example, a goldfish.
A heavy flak isn't a disabling weapon, so it's meant to help killing a ship. But at the moment it does none of the above. And that's the problem we want to solve.
It didn't change in terms of user friendly usage, so we don't need to change that I guess.
-
I'm out of my element with heavy flak, so forgive me if I say things that are known to be impossible. I'm not entirely sure on the going rate of death from 1.3 flak with two shots. I assume that a gunner can be trained to hit all shots in three shot clip, so the thing here was (which we seem to agree on) is that it isn't able to simply murder any ship in that three clip. If so, then ammo me up.
For the arming, it was purely just to compensate for the added reality that the long game has gotten harder, and with large arming times, your bubble of "oh crap, we cant do anything to him" can be large, so a reduction might help mitigate that.
Right again. It's purpose is to maim. I do like the idea of it suppressing though too, to a lesser degree than it's main role of killing. If my armor is up, I couldn't care less about flak shots. If armor is down, I'm looking for them the entire time. Any added suppression will make me at least factor it in as a threat at any time vs the former. It already light's things on fire thanks to the explosive damage. The fire damage was just to give it a slight bite to armor/balloon, while not giving it something OP like piercing.
I suppose you can say we agree here for the most part.
What about giving it Impact damage as a primary while slightly increasing the secondary Explosive damage?
Eh.
-
Okay, I want to clarify what Shell Life and Projectile Speed.
Shell Life is how long the projectile lasts before exploding. This is an artificial cap and used to maintain range on projectile weapons. It is a value in seconds.
Projectile Speed is how fast the projectile travels. It is a value in meters per second.
A projectile will travel at its' designated Projectile Speed until it hits something and explodes or reaches its' Shell Life and explodes. For example, is my projectile speed is 100m/s and my Shell Life is 2s then my projectile has a range of 200m (100m/s * 2s).
The Heavy Flak already reaches a range of 1008m (240m/s * 4.2). It's arming time is 1s meaning it is armed at 240m, which is just bordering close/medium range.
Changing Projectile Speed will alter a projectile's drop. Changing Shell Life will not alter a projectile's drop.
-
I'm out of my element with heavy flak, so forgive me if I say things that are known to be impossible. I'm not entirely sure on the going rate of death from 1.3 flak with two shots. I assume that a gunner can be trained to hit all shots in three shot clip, so the thing here was (which we seem to agree on) is that it isn't able to simply murder any ship in that three clip. If so, then ammo me up.
For the arming, it was purely just to compensate for the added reality that the long game has gotten harder, and with large arming times, your bubble of "oh crap, we cant do anything to him" can be large, so a reduction might help mitigate that.
Right again. It's purpose is to maim. I do like the idea of it suppressing though too, to a lesser degree than it's main role of killing. If my armor is up, I couldn't care less about flak shots. If armor is down, I'm looking for them the entire time. Any added suppression will make me at least factor it in as a threat at any time vs the former. It already light's things on fire thanks to the explosive damage. The fire damage was just to give it a slight bite to armor/balloon, while not giving it something OP like piercing.
I suppose you can say we agree here for the most part.
What about giving it Impact damage as a primary while slightly increasing the secondary Explosive damage?
Eh.
So, this is becoming a nice discussion after our little...uh...misunderstanding there.
A trained gunner could kill a ship with a heavy flak using a 2 ammo clip with the help of other guns/ships - or alone, although it's taken some time. Quite nice if you ask me! It needed lesmok though - and lesmok only, which is a problem, as you've already stated.
So, since lesmok now gives it one shot less, I think upgrading it's clip capacity to one more might help, giving it two shots with lesmok again, but adding more shots when using burst and other ammo types (they're using percentage too!).
Regarding the arming, I see the main problem in even letting the enemy get that close to you. How comes? Because of too many clouds? Or because you're already going backwards and he didn't die? Because whichever problem applies, we need a whole different strategy of getting rid of instead of covering it up. The heavy flak should stay the long range gun it is. It's main counter is to get close to it! That's one of the factors which doesn't make it that OP again. Never touch a running system.
Yeah, using it as surpressive weaponry might be quite interesting, but as said: first you need to speculate about the AoE of fire damage - and how much of it would be dealt.
-
Well playing competitively, I tend to speak from a slightly different perspective from players that do not however I don't think adding more fire to the heavy flak would help it all that much unless the stacks were significant.
I think the problem with the heavy flak was that even in 1.3 it was a very niche weapon. With a very skilled gunner it could reliably provide kills better than other guns in the game at ranges between 1.6km and .7km however at all other ranges the gun became eclipsed by other weapons and below .35km the gun lost the majority of its killing power. Now with the lesmok change the gun performs better than other guns really between 1km and .7km giving it an extremely narrow window of tactical superiority.
Heavy weapons due to the sacrifices inherently made by taking ships that can equip them should excel at something, and the flak should be the best finishing weapon in the game. Ideally changes to Flak should help give it superiority at finishing over a wider range than currently. That's why a proposed longer shell life a very slight speed boost and possibly a reduction in arm time could give the gun a more prominent role.
-
Smollet, I've got one thing to tell you that speaks against that: You don't want an allround gun.
It's good it's been that superior to other guns at that specific range, because that was it's purpose. It is a long range gun after all. That wasn't a problem but a tactical thinking behind setting up your ships, which is one of the main points this game provides us with: Tactics.
Compare it to chess: Different figures for different ways to perform actions. That's what we need.
-
I think we're agreeing without realizing it.
I don't want the heavy flak to be an all around gun. But as a heavy weapon I want it to be the best finisher at a broader range than it currently stands.
-
I think we're agreeing without realizing it.
I don't want the heavy flak to be an all around gun. But as a heavy weapon I want it to be the best finisher at a broader range than it currently stands.
Pushing the the gun further into its niche is easy. The main reason why the Flak got arming time and big nerf to its projectile speed was because it was too easy to kill at close range. If projectile speed was increased to maintain its long range effectiveness (this means its arming distance would increase, but I'd fiddle with arming time to ensure medium range or more) then increasing its clip size is viable.
-
I dare to say that that is what we're talking about, awkm: Giving the gun a meaning again.
-
Oddly enough, I have no issue with the arming time, that's what Lochnager is for. But one round of Lesmok is of no value as even with that round its still moves slower than an old man getting into a bathtub. I don't need it nerfed to make it easier to hit with, but at least make it worth using.
-
I really like Zill's suggestion of adding fire damage, or rather a chance of fire. I'd lower the arming time, lower the explosive damage, and give it a considerable chance to set fire within the AoE. It would be able to "strip" hull armour without too much need of assistance, albeit slowly, and it would make it more appealing to close-mid range fighter on a goldfish... no connection to my play style there.
-
Explosive damage already causes chance for fire based on how much explosive damage it does. More? Yeah it's possible.
-
Does it now? Wow, I just assumed that the enemy were using incendiary lol.
-
I don't consider fire to be a reasonable hull breaking option at range since ships have the ability to easily chem spray.
-
Well, the point would be to make the Flak a little more independent from the merc. Also, the amount of charges set could be increased too.
-
Fire is worrisome because it will also affect balloons. Very dangerous.
-
Its important to note I meant to only add fire damage, not fire ignite chance, as the explosive damage a flak does already gives it a rather large chance to set a stack of flame. I figured it was the best "in-between" damage to do a little more damage to hull armor. Awkm is right to say it'll effect the balloon as well though, but I only wanted to add a little so the dps on balloon shouldn't be too significant, in theory.
-
It's not an exaggeration to say I've probably spent hundreds of hours on the Heavy flak.
The Heavy flak is an Awesome and underutilized weapon, which hunts the damage feed for the 'armour destroyed ' (raspberry) message then ends the hopes and dreams of a crew before they can fully comprehend what's happened.
Here is how the recent changes affect the weapon:
1. Killing things at distance just became a problem, lesmok was the go to ammo to make impossible shots merely hard - In light of the recent change its going to be pretty heroic to get two hits on a moving target near max range...LET ALONE time those hits to the armour destruction.
2. Secondly it flattened the arc, this is important because when using other ammo against a ship charging into your arm time it's easy stuff up the vertical axis and overshoot or under shoot, this is a factor of the projectiles extremely slow speed. (this sounds minor but when you have two shots and 5 seconds to kill or be killed by a charging pyra all of a sudden this is clutch)
3. In all honestly the changes have killed the weapon for the majority of the player base.
Now this being said I'll be pushing for the Paddling to continue to use the gun, as it still has a unique edge for competitive play. But dear god why did one of the most currently maligned guns with a long history of getting abused by patches have to suffer even more?
I see 4 options:
1. Reverse the patch artimis style
2. Increase the projectile speed (I know this *seems* reasonable but its not, a precision buffed heavy flak with charged rounds at 1.6k, will have people whining like the old days)
2. Massively increase the damage and arm time (one can dream)
3. Give it 2.9 shots or something so it exists as an exception to the lesmok nerf, yet only fires two shots with any ammo.
By way of reply to the fire enthusiasts and people suggesting other utility effects ... No. The gun has a defined role, it does hull damage, its good at it and it does ALOT of it....IF YOU HIT THE BALLOON WHEN ITS UP YOUR DOING IT WRONG.
-
By way or reply to the fire enthusiasts and people suggesting other utility effects ... No. The gun has a defined role it does hull damage its good at it and it does ALOT of it.
Well, you see, that's the problem with it, it can only do one thing and one thing only. Compared to all other Heavy guns who have multi-role purposes, this gun is simply not on par.
Projectiles fly at a snail's pace, Lesmok is now worthless on it, it does negligible damage to anything BUT the Hull and is completely dependant on other guns to destroy the armor for it, else you are just sitting there gathering dust.
With all the disabilitites it has, you might as well just make the AoE damage it deals as Fire and not explosive, then at least it has a Mid range dominance option other than "I will just sit here till armor is down and hope the enemy foolishly flies in range" while it does retain its finishing power, but is wholely restricted to mid range only.
I mean what, vanilla has like 1000 meters range? and it's impossible to hit at that range on moving targets with the vanilla's projectile speed.
Now I'm not saying this should be implemented. Tested? Maybe. But the Heavy Flak is a problematic weapon, it was in 1.3 and it still is, even more so in 1.3.1, it's too specialized of a heavy gun.
-
That is a terrible idea, its like taking from Peter to pay Paul.
The heavy flak isn't for all situations like the annoying but ultimately ineffective manticore. In taking the heavy flak you've made a bargain with skill and fate, namely if the enemy can keep their armour up they win, if not you win.
High risk high reward, surely we can all appreciate that.
-
That is a terrible idea, its like taking from Peter to pay Paul.
The heavy flak isn't for all situations like the annoying but ultimately ineffective manticore. In taking the heavy flak you've made a bargain with skill and fate, namely if the enemy can keep their armour up they win, if not you win.
High risk high reward, surely we can all appreciate that.
No we can't actually. Not like this.
I know the Paddling uses the Heavy Flak in competative and that you guys are one of the best, if not the best team in this game, considering you are still holding the Champion's Cog and I do respect that. But your usage of the Heavy Flak doesn't prove anything about the gun being actually good and efficient.
You guys use the gun in a very specific team set up for a very specific role. Out of the three ships that can equip a Heavy Flak, on how many can the ship itself make use actual use of it by itself?
Goldfish can't get a bifecta, so that only leaves the Spire and the Galleon. On a competative set up, the Spire is a very high risk/reward ship, if not THE Risk/Reward ship of the game, but it's considered highly inefficient due to its fragility and very high risk. Is it truly? Well who knows. So that leaves the Galleon that makes the most out of it.
That's 1 out of the 3 ships that can even equip the gun. And that's only for competitive.
In pubs the gun used to be usable with the old Lesmok on the Spire as well as the Galleon, the Fish still couldn't make any truly efficient use of it. It was a realy rare weapon to see as well and almost nobody could actually use it properly.
So the usageof the Heavy Flak is basically: 1 Competative team, the odd guy in pubs that used it well, low level pilots on Galleons that couldn't use it and eventually switched off of it.
Are you trying to argue that the gun doesn't need changes just because you guys can use it in one and only one specific situation and team set up?
I mean no offense and I don't want to sound patronizing, but that's the vibe I get from your post Moriarty.
-
Fair call, cant agree with the spire thing tho.
Merc/flak spires are spires at their best (easily the dominant force in the baptism by spire) ... that makes 2 out of 3 since your counting.
As for the goldfish well lets be honest there are lots of problems with the goldfish, it's been a support ship for a few versions now, relegated to carrying a manticore since the carronade changes.
so 2 out of 3 ships find a use for it. That's not bad.
-
Fair call, cant agree with the spire thing tho.
Merc/flak spires are spires at their best (easily the dominant force in the baptism by spire) ... that makes 2 out of 3 since your counting.
As for the goldfish well lets be honest there are lots of problems with the goldfish, it's been a support ship for a few versions now, relegated to carrying a manticore since the carronade changes.
so 2 out of 3 ships find a use for it. That's not bad.
I meant that a FlakSpire isn't realy the 'go to' thing in competitive and my 1 out of 3 ships assumption was for a competitive enviroment only. In which case, the Heavy Flak only appears on the Paddling's Galleon.
In Pub games FlakSpire is a bit safer to use since people don't realy care a lot ( I know I don't, I love the ship ), but since Lesmok cripples the Heavy Flak considerably now, it's not realy the most effective thing, even more so on a competitive setting. FlakSpires weren't that popular in Pubs either, so far I haven't seen many people using them bar me, Smollett, Keyvias and 2-3 other guys, it's a very high risk ship to use.
As for the fire thing it was just an idea, I think it would be worth testing in the App and see how it would impact the game in general.
-
You people keep saying that these long range shots are impossible without lesmok o.0 how have I been getting kills with it then? (well, my gunner) I know he's not using Lesmok because he shoots twice.
I'm thinking I might be using this weapon in closer ranges than everyone else is. I can't tell how far the enemy is, but it takes a second or two for the round to hit, and it's enough to kill. What is the minimum and max range with charged rounds?
-
Lesmok gave the gun some more true range, I can get kills too with a competend gunner, but that doesn't mean it isn't doubly hard to do so now.
I still insist that since Lesmok is very good on so many things and apparently needed a change, that this gun gets some treatment, even if it is just a faster vanilla projectile speed.
-
I think there's some major confusion here or issue with the particular language everyone is using. Therefore, it makes it hard for me to understand what it is that you are complaining about. Smollet also had some confusion some it might be how the Ducks and other high level talk about gun stats. What this leads me to believe is that you are all speculating again.
If you really want change to happen, test before you talk. Speculation does not help me, in fact in can confuse me and lead me to make stupid changes. And if you have tested before you spoke, thank you.
Old Lesmok:
+60% projectile speed, -20% clip size, +30% projectile lift, -40% gun rotation speed
New Lesmok:
+80% projectile speed, -30% clip size, +30% projectile lift, -20% gun rotation speed
Heavy Flak without Lesmok:
- Range: 1008m
- Arming Time: 1s (remains the same even with ammo)
- Arming Range: 240m
- Clip size: 2
- Rotation speed and projectile lift is rather obvious
Heavy Flak with old Lesmok:
- Range: 1600m
- Arming Range: 384m
- Clip size: 2
Heavy Flak with new Lesmok:
- Range: 1800m
- Arming Range: 432m
- Clip size: 1
Pros of New Lesmok:
- Even greater range (+200m compared to old Lesmok)
- Less gun rotation nerf (half from old Lesmok!!)
Cons of New Lesmok:
- Ammo is dropped to 1 (compared to rounded to 2 with -20% clip size, therefore no change)
- Greater arming range (due to increase projectile speed, Arming Range = Arming Time * Projectile Speed)
SO, in my mind the only really big nerf is that guns with clip size 2 really get it. Ammo is dropped to 1. Increasing Heavy Flak's ammo is one solution, what its DPS should be afterwards is still TBD. Increasing its Shell Life is an easy possibility, therefore increasing the gun's effective range without affecting drop. It'll just take more skill to get shots on things further away, it's one helluva drop.
Lesmok will need to change in some ways to account for abuses on other weapons. The laser-like surgery it affords to guns like mortars is nice but it's too easy to use right now. It has solidified itself as the default ammo for that gun. I don't like it. Some additional thought will need to be put into Lesmok or even to the Mortar itself now that reliance on Light Flak has been lowered.
-
This is just some thinking about what might be a problem and how to solve it regarding effect to cause and balance. Logical continuity not guaranteed (as well as specific terms, tried to describe them). No thoughts have been made about damage changes, since I don't know the specific numbers.
About the heavy flak:
Increasing shell life might be an easy solution to get it even more into it's niche, however it already has quite a high range and doesn't need to become a second merc, the way I see it.
I still think that adding one more round to it's clip would be the way to go by boosting as well the gun with lesmok but also with burst and other ammo types, making them worth using gain in combination with the flak too as well as decreasing the speed the projectile flys with, e.g. lochnagar or others.
About the mortar:
Increasing it's stability towards lateral and vertical movement, so shots aren't affected that much by movement anymore, would prevent overexcessive use of lesmok and force the players to use other ammo types to gain advantages. Decreasing it's range would make lesmok still necessary with particular kinds of playing without pushing it too far in direction of being OP with other rounds if changes stated before would be made.
-
Increasing it's stability towards lateral and vertical movement, so shots aren't affected that much by movement anymore, would prevent overexcessive use of lesmok and force the players to use other ammo types to gain advantages.
I'm not clear on what you mean by this?
Stability as in recoil? Mortar has no jitter or recoil whatsoever?
Lateral and vertical movement? I have control of how far you can turn the guns (pitch and yaw angles) and how fast they move in those directions (pitch and yaw speeds).
What brought mortar into the limelight recently was its new freedom of movement, I believe I increased its yaw angles and maybe its yaw speeds so it's easier to get the gun on target. This can be brought back again. I was thinking of actually having Lesmok do it but of course that would have consequences on other weapons as well.
-
What brought mortar into the limelight recently was its new freedom of movement
Actually, that didn't have too huge an effect on its viability. What really brought the mortar into play was the change to heavy clip, which meant that the light flak only had three shots at longer ranges. With four shots and a buff it was able to take out the Pyramidion, which was key seeing as that's the most popular ship alongside the Junker. But now that the light flak only gets three shots with heavy clip, it can't kill as much at range, while the mortar can.
-
Increasing it's stability towards lateral and vertical movement, so shots aren't affected that much by movement anymore, would prevent overexcessive use of lesmok and force the players to use other ammo types to gain advantages.
I'm not clear on what you mean by this?
If I can pick up on his meaning, I think he's suggesting that the movement of the ship upon which the Flak is firing is a considerable difficulty when trying to hit a target. He's suggesting that the movement of the ship should affect the direction of the shot less and by doing so other ammo types would be used.
-
"Increasing it's stability towards lateral and vertical movement, so shots aren't affected that much by movement anymore, would prevent overexcessive use of lesmok and force the players to use other ammo types to gain advantages."
This means that if your own ship turns right on the spot to keep the guns aimed at another ship, your gun would be affected by that turning less. Same as you did with the gatling, but inverted.
I think it's not a problem of the angles but that the gun behaves as if you had heavy clip loaded into it, it's shots are far too precisely.
-
I guess my biggest complaint is trying to do these new achievements with all these changes. I cant see me getting anymore Lochnager and flak part destroys since the heavy flak is even more shunned for the moment. And please dont even bring up the light flak, would anyone really expect to do a lochnager shot with that thing . This has to be done without accidentally killing them, which in itself is fairly absurd. 2000+ m part destroys is still possible I guess using charged rounds, but I just truly despise talentless buffoons that sit in the corner with a mercury, so I have been slowly getting mine done with a LumberJack. I guess my main concern is all these achievements. It is no secret I like to get my levels, thats how I am, and could care less who likes it or not. The heavy flak is hard to hit with at range, even with the slothlike lesmok projectile. Just put 2 rounds back in the thing.
-
"Increasing it's stability towards lateral and vertical movement, so shots aren't affected that much by movement anymore, would prevent overexcessive use of lesmok and force the players to use other ammo types to gain advantages."
This means that if your own ship turns right on the spot to keep the guns aimed at another ship, your gun would be affected by that turning less. Same as you did with the gatling, but inverted.
I think it's not a problem of the angles but that the gun behaves as if you had heavy clip loaded into it, it's shots are far too precisely.
This can't be changed. Guns inherit velocity from ships in a realistic manner. To change that would be to break the entire physics model.
-
@awkm
What people are mostly decrying is the loss of a shot in the heavy Flak due to lesmok changes. This is because the second shot was the kill shot.
People depended on lesmok before to make a kill at long and medium ranges, which was the primary reason people took heavy flak. It was an incredibly risky strategy that paid off big with a skilled gunner.
For example when a pyramidion was charging a Spire, a Flak spire used to be able to kill it by dropping its armor at medium to long range and killing it with two very precise Flak shots. If a Flak shot were to miss, the Pyra would usually close in and kill the Spire.
Without the second shot to finish at long to medium range, the Flak loses a lot of it's raison d'etre. I have heard some of the very experienced flak users talking about adding another shot to the gun as a solution. It's too hard to conceptualize whether it would make the gun op in competitive play (it probably wouldn't change much since competitive players rarely miss and they only need 2 shots anyways) but I think it might likely make it balanced in pub play.
-
Agreed with Smollett pretty much, I think with the New Lesmok and an ammo increase this gun will shine a bit more as the finisher it was designed to be I guess, plus the ammo change might encourage other ammo types as well.
-
I can't keep my threads straight but yes, increasing ammo for heavy flak is a possible solution.
-
The part you referred to, awkm, was the one about the mortar. My post may have been chaotic, so just wanted to clearify that.
Referring to said post again: Decreasing the range of the mortar still might be worth a thought, but I don't think this will be the only change that has to be made on this gun.
So Smollett and Echoez, I guess we mainly agree on those points?
-
I guess my biggest complaint is trying to do these new achievements with all these changes. I cant see me getting anymore Lochnager and flak part destroys since the heavy flak is even more shunned for the moment. And please dont even bring up the light flak, would anyone really expect to do a lochnager shot with that thing . This has to be done without accidentally killing them, which in itself is fairly absurd. 2000+ m part destroys is still possible I guess using charged rounds, but I just truly despise talentless buffoons that sit in the corner with a mercury, so I have been slowly getting mine done with a LumberJack. I guess my main concern is all these achievements. It is no secret I like to get my levels, thats how I am, and could care less who likes it or not. The heavy flak is hard to hit with at range, even with the slothlike lesmok projectile. Just put 2 rounds back in the thing.
There are a few more achievement revisions coming -- that particular achievement is being changed to remove the gun constraint, so it's Lochnagar with anything, if that helps.
-
The part you referred to, awkm, was the one about the mortar. My post may have been chaotic, so just wanted to clearify that.
Referring to said post again: Decreasing the range of the mortar still might be worth a thought, but I don't think this will be the only change that has to be made on this gun.
So Smollett and Echoez, I guess we mainly agree on those points?
I personaly enjoy the Mortar right now, though I do agree that some changes need to be done, since the only problem with it is Lesmok though, you might want to take a look at the 1.3.1 Lesmok discussion thread, Sammy B.T. brought up an interesting point.
-
I was referring to the heavy flak changes, sorry. Since you pointed out something that has been written before, but I don't know if you agree with it or just want it because of different reasons - also the first point stayed unanswered.
About the mortar, it's quite enjoyable, but as awkm said - you just load up lesmok and it pretty much hits without you doing anything.
I don't see lesmok as the problem (especially not the new lesmok) but the gun itself.
-
Oh yes, definately, an extra shot to the Heavy Flak would be most welcome if it is to retain its Finisher only niche. Extra shell life might be cool as well, we will have to test.
-
Well, then we disagree on the extra shell life as it currently looks. Why do you think adding extra shell life would help? Maybe there's something I'm missing.
-
Could the ammo of a gun be expressed as a float?
For example if the fieldgun's ammo were set at 2.0f while the Flack cannon was expressed as 2.5f using an ammo the reduced clip size by 20% would result in the field gun having one shot 2.0f*0.8f=1.6f and the flack still having two 2.5f*0.8f =2.0f.
-
Since we round up from x.5, 1.6f would lead to 2 shots I guess. Also, -20% clip size is pretty much what has been changed in the new lesmok (to -30%).
-
As far as the mortar goes its pretty much fine the way it is. Lets be honest most players cant hit crap with that thing unless your close enough to throw a rock at them anyway. And if your already on top of them why would you even want lesmok then, greased or burst is always better for that.
-
My point is Muse could set one gun to drop to 1 round with lesmok while having another keep 2 rounds with lesmok if they used floats and made the second gun have a fractionally larger clip.
-
Why not change one gun instead of many guns/ammo types?
-
Floats, good granularity but very confusing to communicate.
-
Well, then we disagree on the extra shell life as it currently looks. Why do you think adding extra shell life would help? Maybe there's something I'm missing.
Well, it depents on what you consider 'Long Range', for example I don't believe that 1000 meters as a vanilla range is considered long range, it's medium range, hence why the Heavy Flak was always crippled at long range without Lesmok (which boosted its total range to 1600).
Increased shell life, while not messing with much other than the projectile will just drop more over range (since it lives longer), still increases how far it can reach, hence rewarding skillfull long range shots with it if you can make them while right now the projectile will just 'pop' after 1000 meters (or 1800 if you are using the new Lesmok)
-
The post I asked you if you agreed with is talking about just that: It would put the heavy flak more into it's niche, however, you may create a new merc with that - and I don't think we want that. I don't see the range as a problem, to be honest.
Also summing up my thoughts about mortar adjustements:
Decreasing the mortar's range would make lesmok still necessary with particular kinds of playing, without pushing it too far in direction of being OP when using other rounds. The usage of other rounds though would be induced. Don't know if this is enough to nerf it a bit, but might be worth thinking about it. Maybe a little change might be necessary besides this one.
You may want to think about decreasing the damage a little bit, but only a little bit though. This would lead to more usage of burst, charged or lochnagar and balance with the light flak in terms of killing power (as well as other guns).
-
I think yall need to lose your dependency on lesmok >.<
With the merc changes, it seems like the default "long range" has decreased and what used to be long range is now very long range. At >1000m it's SUPPOSED to be hard to hit a target. If you want to hit at such extreme ranges you have to have a drawback, the drawback is one less shot.
-
Well for the ships this gun has to be used on, having such low range isn't beneficial at all.
The Spire and the Galleon are incurably slow moving and can't bring the gun into the fight easily, while the Goldfish, despite being fast moving, is rendered completely reliant on its ally to use the Flak. Hence why you need the extra range, else the weapon isn't realy all the effective. Usable? Maybe. Effective? Not realy.
-
That's why you should use lesmok. Use lesmok to shoot them from a much further range and afterwards switch to burst/charged/lochnagar to deal real damage.
-
That's why you should use lesmok. Use lesmok to shoot them from a much further range and afterwards switch to burst/charged/lochnagar to deal real damage.
I think that is the correct strategy, as it has always been. The problem is, the lesmok changes have caused that strategy to lose a lot of potency.
-
Well, that's why I suggested what I have written many times before. If you like take a look at it and tell me if you agree with it or have other thoughts on it! I'd like to hear them.
-
Idk. You get an easier to shoot flak at max range but with one ammo. Giving it three rounds (so then two with lesmok) then equates to just an easier heavy flak. In some cases that might be nice (on goldfish and spire), but in others would be a glimpse back to old heavy flak (more along organized play, since timing would equate to insta-kills when hull armor goes).
Heavy flak does what it does best, and that is kill or maim someone when their hull armor is down. If you are fighting at ranges above 1km, I don't think any gun should kill you one one clip on its own. It should be more of an attrition fight. Some say high risk and high reward, but fighting at those ranges is in itself less risk, especially with good gunners.
I know I was one of the first to jump on the new lesmok changes, and they will probably still get tweaked, but it's must less game shattering than I think it's made out to be. I do still want to test a fire rate change instead of ammo reduction.
-
Well if it stays as is we still have a problem. I know the Captain achievements call for kills at 2000+m, That aint gonna happen unless you have the whole team with mercs and you happen to get off the kill shot. I know as a gunner I need 500 parts at 2000+m. So, when we all start to overuse the lumberjack will it be next on the chopping block?
-
Well if it stays as is we still have a problem. I know the Captain achievements call for kills at 2000+m, That aint gonna happen unless you have the whole team with mercs and you happen to get off the kill shot. I know as a gunner I need 500 parts at 2000+m. So, when we all start to overuse the lumberjack will it be next on the chopping block?
Muse has already stated they plan to revise the achievements based on the evolving game changes.
-
Achievements will be updated as meta is updated. It's going to lag behind a little bit because the achievement is literally a lumbering giant beast where if you poke one thing it will totally fall over on itself, more so than balance.
Relax, we got you covered.
-
All I can say is that I am making a guide for this weapon....
(kinda plan to make a guide for all the heavy weapons, at the least) and all that remains is a video....and changing of numbers (like what I have to do to another guide.)
Lesmok may have been the easy tool to use, but...well...like other guns, learning to use other shots and when...that's my goal. (Pretty much going for a campaign that Gunner is not the "easiest" or "useless" class as many believe....)
The fact that Lesmok reduces it down to 1 makes me think, I can use it for long range still...maybe not killing power, but that 295 damage if the hull is out...that's gonna scare a few people. The closing range will allow for more charged, burst, maybe loch...and heatsink...(heatsink's clip does as much damage as the Lochnagar shot...and is the third shortest range...think about it.)
Do I think the lesmok fix hurt the gun? Yes. Do I think there are ways around it? Yes.
-
I'm waiting with my answer until I tested the new idea.
Idk. You get an easier to shoot flak at max range but with one ammo. Giving it three rounds (so then two with lesmok) then equates to just an easier heavy flak. In some cases that might be nice (on goldfish and spire), but in others would be a glimpse back to old heavy flak (more along organized play, since timing would equate to insta-kills when hull armor goes).
Heavy flak does what it does best, and that is kill or maim someone when their hull armor is down. If you are fighting at ranges above 1km, I don't think any gun should kill you one one clip on its own. It should be more of an attrition fight. Some say high risk and high reward, but fighting at those ranges is in itself less risk, especially with good gunners.
I know I was one of the first to jump on the new lesmok changes, and they will probably still get tweaked, but it's must less game shattering than I think it's made out to be. I do still want to test a fire rate change instead of ammo reduction.
You might be right about that.
I don't think a gun should be able to kill someone in one clip or even one shot either, but only attracting the enemy is not enough on the other hand.
Fire rate change sounds like a quite good idea, gotta take a look into the new version though. Can't say anything apart from that.
-
After some serious thought on the matter, I have to admit; I've had a change of heart.
I no longer think increasing flak clip size is the best way to go. It just takes too much fun away from the gun. That super high risk high reward, only two shots and you better make them mentality, the visual of watching the first shot literally bend and twist the enemy ship and the second shot smashing it to pieces is too awesome to give up. The Flak gun for me was always the most satisfying gun to use, a giant cannon that only did one thing, but it did it well.
Emotions aside here's some balancing reasoning to back this up. With a 4 shot Flak cannon you get into a bit of a pickle: Either lesmok will be way too weak (the current problem) or burst will be way too strong (people's deepest fears).
My proposed solution is quite simple. I think the simplest way to buff the gun is to, well just buff the gun (stay with me here now).
The problem with lesmok as it stands is that it's just too weak. If you hit someone with it; there's a good chance they'll still be charging in at you and kill you while you're in arm time. I think the way to fix this and to fix the gun in general is two fold:
1) Increase the lifespan of the shot, so that vanilla rounds travel farther. I think this is something most people agree would be good for the gun. Anyone that can hit at 1.4km on time and on hull with vanilla rounds twice deserves the kill.
2) Increase the overall damage of the gun, but backload it onto the aoe damage, not impact. Instead of 147 impact and 148 aoe, change the damage to 147 and 243.
Here's why this helps: By upping the damage of the aoe, a lesmok shot goes from doing 400 pure hull damage outside of arm to 546. With this change lesmok will make it so even though you don't kill most ships (other than a Junker providing you can hit it) you'll be able to severely cripple them so that you or your ally can finish them off much more easily if they enter arm time. This will also change the flak from a very high risk high reward weapon to a high risk high reward weapon since even though you won't be able to one shot kill; you'll get a lot more bang for your buck if you only make one shot.
Now for all you that are still suffering trauma from the claiming the Fjords tournament, here's why this is still balanced: Heavy flak, prior to 1.31 was always able to two shot kill ships and one shot kill Junkers with charged rounds or almost with a buffed lesmok gun and was by no means considered op. It still won't be able to two shot a goldfish or a galleon. Even more importantly, getting within arm time will still allow the same amount of safety as before due to all of the damage increase being back loaded on aoe damage therefore not being active withing arm time.
TL;DR Heavy Flaks with two shots are more fun and easier to balance.
Increase the range vanilla rounds can travel to give highly skilled gunners a chance to make mid range kills.
Increase aoe damage without imbalancing the gun so long range lesmok shots are meaningful and mid range shots give a greater reward if shots are missed.
awkm - would we be able to test these changes (also I didn't include it here but could we do it with the old arming time?)
-
I am going to join an earlier poster in saying that my crews with charged rounds have had no issue hitting at 2000+ range. Some crews can even do this while I'm circling around with the Galleon, so the issue definitely isn't in hitting the flak cannon. And with charged rounds, it still does a lot of damage at those ranges. I'd much rather focus on getting a heavy gun that accompanies the flak in that it takes care of armor. That way we can leave the fieldgun as it is for the Spire and outfit the Galleon with some proper ranged weaponry.
The arming time of 1 second is ridiculous however, it means that together with the mortar with arming time of 0.8 seconds, I have a huge blind spot on my Galleon that I can't even turn away when they get close enough(as they just bounce me back by hitting my balloon). This again could be fixed by having a heavy piercing weapon so that the small mount can be used for shotguns or other self defense weaponry.
-
Charged Flak rounds explode in mid air after just over 1km, which can only be overcome with lesmok ammunition (by increasing speed so that they travel farther within their limited lifespan).
-
Aha, I just saw the tiling thing. The Mortar's aiming system is off. Well, easy to fix this issue with flak, just increase the detonation range(to 2000m). If they want a different firing arc they can still use Lesmok.
Maybe it's also an idea to revert back to the previous lesmok and try to figure out what makes the fieldguns as strong as they are. From what I've seen is that it's very hard to get close to ships when they employ fieldguns. Aside from a bumrush, there aren't many options due to flares and open distance.
The other guns have an effective range that is less than 1000 meters giving fieldguns a very distinct advantage. Being that the fieldguns are sniper rifles firing relatively normal bullets, a range of 3000 is excessive to begin with. Maybe impose an effective range of 1000 and have damage drop off after that rather than changing the amount of shots available.
Secondly, pilots need ways to get close against ranged fighters, even in organized fights. Maybe it's an idea to put a smoke gun in the game that can facilitate in creating smoke screens for ships to fly behind?
-
The arming time of 1 second is ridiculous however, it means that together with the mortar with arming time of 0.8 seconds, I have a huge blind spot on my Galleon that I can't even turn away when they get close enough(as they just bounce me back by hitting my balloon). This again could be fixed by having a heavy piercing weapon so that the small mount can be used for shotguns or other self defense weaponry.
There is a very good reason for that arming time, and that is so short range brawlers can get in that bubble and survive. You make the choice to have great long range guns, at the cost of the very weak damage you'll do within that arming.
Adding any kind of full-on heavy piercing weapon will just result in galleons with it and heavy flak for broadsides. I honestly don't think we ever need to see a heavy piercing gun. Flechette does decently, and maybe a heavy fire weapon will come around which is also good vs hull armor. Beyond that though, there is a reason the port side of a galleon has that light mount.
Maybe it's also an idea to revert back to the previous lesmok and try to figure out what makes the fieldguns as strong as they are. From what I've seen is that it's very hard to get close to ships when they employ fieldguns. Aside from a bumrush, there aren't many options due to flares and open distance.
The other guns have an effective range that is less than 1000 meters giving fieldguns a very distinct advantage. Being that the fieldguns are sniper rifles firing relatively normal bullets, a range of 3000 is excessive to begin with. Maybe impose an effective range of 1000 and have damage drop off after that rather than changing the amount of shots available.
We already know what made mercs strong, and that was the accuracy at max ranges far beyond that of any other gun. This lead to people using that to chip away at boats until they just died from the dps. Now you have to really dial in the arcs of your mercs, and the drop at longer ranges is enough to make accurate shooting much harder, yet someone will always get hurt/die if they charge into a long range gun line straight on. That just makes sense else long range wouldn't be viable to use at all.
I always look at gun's effective range vs its max range. If your max is 3km but you cant hit anything accurately till 1.5km, then go with that 1.5km. With the merc changes, their effective range surely went down, both for just hitting the hull for dps, followed by even lower ranges for precise component disables.
-
[There is a very good reason for that arming time, and that is so short range brawlers can get in that bubble and survive. You make the choice to have great long range guns, at the cost of the very weak damage you'll do within that arming.
Great long range? 1000m isn't that long. And with a full second you already cover something like 500m before reaching arming time. For a gun that has a very specific purpose and doesn't do much damage when the hull is up, 1 second is just too long.
Adding any kind of full-on heavy piercing weapon will just result in galleons with it and heavy flak for broadsides. I honestly don't think we ever need to see a heavy piercing gun. Flechette does decently, and maybe a heavy fire weapon will come around which is also good vs hull armor. Beyond that though, there is a reason the port side of a galleon has that light mount.
I do not see how this is a problem, it would turn the Galleon into a little bit less of a joke in 2v2 fights. Not only Galleons, but spires and goldfishes have use for a gun like this. Next to fire, it's the only type not represented by heavy weaponry.
We already know what made mercs strong, and that was the accuracy at max ranges far beyond that of any other gun. This lead to people using that to chip away at boats until they just died from the dps. Now you have to really dial in the arcs of your mercs, and the drop at longer ranges is enough to make accurate shooting much harder, yet someone will always get hurt/die if they charge into a long range gun line straight on. That just makes sense else long range wouldn't be viable to use at all.
I always look at gun's effective range vs its max range. If your max is 3km but you cant hit anything accurately till 1.5km, then go with that 1.5km. With the merc changes, their effective range surely went down, both for just hitting the hull for dps, followed by even lower ranges for precise component disables.
You missed the point. Think about this for a second: How would they chip away at a ship they cannot see? You have to be really careful with how you think about balance, there's only a few games who'm have gotten it well and nearly all of them do the least things with the damage of their playable entities. If you want, you could pull up the change list between Guilty Gear XX Accent Core and Guilty Gear XX Accent Core +R. The latter is a rebalance, but rather than tuning damage alone, they changed the properties of some moves to allow characters to deal better with disadvantageous situations. Being outranged is such a disadvantageous situation and dealing with it without touching the weapons that seem overpowered may balance everything a lot better than just damage tuning or projectile tuning.
-
Great long range? 1000m isn't that long. And with a full second you already cover something like 500m before reaching arming time. For a gun that has a very specific purpose and doesn't do much damage when the hull is up, 1 second is just too long.
The max range on the flak is greater than 1km. Once they get close you use ammo that slows the projectile, thus lowering the arming time. Even within the arming time, you still do 50% damage. So get the hull down and pelt away, avoid the situation to begin with by killing them as they charge your gun lines, or turn your short side early.
do not see how this is a problem, it would turn the Galleon into a little bit less of a joke in 2v2 fights. Not only Galleons, but spires and goldfishes have use for a gun like this. Next to fire, it's the only type not represented by heavy weaponry.
No offence, but there is nothing wrong with a galleon in a 2v2 fight. And Im fully aware the other ships can use a gun like that, but the point is a galleon can take four, and shoot two at the same time. It'll only lead to galleons sitting in the open, gunning down people with that flavor of heavy gun and a flak. Not to say they won't ever come out with one, but its my opinion that we don't need it given the options we have available (which is always growing.)
You missed the point. Think about this for a second: How would they chip away at a ship they cannot see? You have to be really careful with how you think about balance, there's only a few games who'm have gotten it well and nearly all of them do the least things with the damage of their playable entities. If you want, you could pull up the change list between Guilty Gear XX Accent Core and Guilty Gear XX Accent Core +R. The latter is a rebalance, but rather than tuning damage alone, they changed the properties of some moves to allow characters to deal better with disadvantageous situations. Being outranged is such a disadvantageous situation and dealing with it without touching the weapons that seem overpowered may balance everything a lot better than just damage tuning or projectile tuning.
I didn't miss any points. And use the flare gun to deal with clouds. Hell, the clouds move too, so there is always going to be gaps that you can use. I know how balance works, and I truly want a totally balanced goio. Besides not agreeing with the heavy flak arming times and I guess thinking the merc changes are bad, I don't know what you are trying to get at here balance wise.
-
Max range of heavy flak is 1008m with normal ammo. Arming distance of heavy flak is 240m with normal ammo.
People seem confused about that, so this is just to clarify things.
-
Must of been thinking lesmok range then. My opinion doesn't change though. Arming is fine, though obviously shell life could go up to increase its range.
-
The max range on the flak is greater than 1km. Once they get close you use ammo that slows the projectile, thus lowering the arming time. Even within the arming time, you still do 50% damage. So get the hull down and pelt away, avoid the situation to begin with by killing them as they charge your gun lines, or turn your short side early.
Yes, the distance is 1008m, I stand corrected. I even bothered testing to see whether the rounds shoot further but they don't. Lesmok range can be longer than normal range, but the gun should not be balanced around lesmok, but lesmok around the gun. So what if people get a giant range extension with lesmok or their rounds become easier to aim? They trade that off with less damage or by lacking other properties. Having a flak cannon by itself reaching across the field isn't even threatening provided your crew keeps your hull armor up. If anything, I would be much more worried about the fieldgun or a heavy long range piercing gun I'm suggesting than something that only does good damage when the hull is down.
No offence, but there is nothing wrong with a galleon in a 2v2 fight. And Im fully aware the other ships can use a gun like that, but the point is a galleon can take four, and shoot two at the same time. It'll only lead to galleons sitting in the open, gunning down people with that flavor of heavy gun and a flak. Not to say they won't ever come out with one, but its my opinion that we don't need it given the options we have available (which is always growing.)
That should be their choice to make. If they want to hang in the air like that, that is fine. It's not even unbalanced in itself. And we come back to:
I didn't miss any points. And use the flare gun to deal with clouds. Hell, the clouds move too, so there is always going to be gaps that you can use. I know how balance works, and I truly want a totally balanced goio. Besides not agreeing with the heavy flak arming times and I guess thinking the merc changes are bad, I don't know what you are trying to get at here balance wise.
You missed the point again, eventhough you say you don't, you still miss the point. My point was that it wasn't the guns themselves that force a playstyle that the players people use right now. The Galleon will still be equipped with flak and LJ regardless of how badly you nerve those specific weapons because they will always keep their purpose. Their purpose is giving the Galleon means over distance. Because thanks to its most rotten acceleration and requirement to turn the broadside towards the target, the Galleon cannot move. If people wanted to play brawler with almost any ship they will rapidly find out that they can get bursted down rather easily from a distance. Even now with fieldguns; and if fieldguns is not an option, two chainguns and a mortar launcher will get a Galleon down before it is able to turn its broadside. Any player will confirm this to you. And rather than nerfing the weapons themselves, it would be better to give people means to get closer. Smoke screens can work. I know how a flare gun works but this is something you can balance. Maybe we can give ship shields that they can place in a weapon slot that will prevent rounds from reaching the ship. There's tons of ways you can solve the same problem and at the same time fix the actual problem rather than patch it a little with a damage nerf.
-
In relation to the Zill QKO back and forth i have to go with Zill (feel dirty) - Galleons don't need any help atm, and the arm time is a solid mechanic which although at times inconvenient is an absolute necessity (the fjord vids should still be hosted on qwerty's channel if you don't believe me).
On another note, I tested the 4 shot heavy flak, I don't mind the idea but here's my main issue with it:
1. To use this gun effectively you have to fire during the window when the armour's down, i think we can all agree on that.
2. The window you have to shoot is on average something like 5-8 seconds, and less on a goldfish and squid.
3. Considering the insanely slow speed of the Heavy flak rounds its difficult (and impossible at medium distance) to fit 4 rounds into the window if you have to aim the shots.
I *think* this was an oversight. In any course if (as is my understanding) the flak damage was spread across 4 shots rather than 2 - then this change would still be a nerf to the flak with regards to lesmok and i'm fairly sure that wasnt the point of the recent changes.
I back smollets suggestion to give it two rounds, either through a float as suggested by hamster? or just giving it 2.4 rounds total (i am informed this is the correct math to make a 30% reduction equal 2).
-
@QKO, I honestly can say I have no idea what you are wanting out of your posts. Call me thick, but all it sounds like is that you want to use new mechanics instead of nerfing gun damage, which just leads to more variables that can break other things. The end goal is to get these guns performing the roles that we know they do in a balanced way that makes it so it's not the only thing to ever take.
The sooner you stop using absolutes in this game, the better. Every pilot won't confirm that if an enemy ship gets close to a galleon, that it will die, because i prove that wrong on a daily basis.
While a smoke gun wouldn't be a bad concept, it certainly wont get you closer to anything. How is it going to move forward? What is stopping me from seeing a giant artificial cloud, and immediately shooting at it?
So let's focus on what is happening here, and that is potential Heavy Flak changes, because it's apparent that it was using lesmok as a crutch to make itself useful, which is flawed.
-
I think we can all agree that the flak needs more range in order for it to preform it's role as a long range weapon. If lesmok stays the same than I think that we can all agree on the second point witch is to give the flak more ammo.
-
No, i believe that the flak is very good in what it is doing now. A quicker shot maybe, but other than than i think it is viable as it is, even with the new lesmok changes. It is a killer, and with a good lochnar shot, any ship is ded
-
@QKO, I honestly can say I have no idea what you are wanting out of your posts. Call me thick, but all it sounds like is that you want to use new mechanics instead of nerfing gun damage, which just leads to more variables that can break other things. The end goal is to get these guns performing the roles that we know they do in a balanced way that makes it so it's not the only thing to ever take.
Yes, I'm pushing for mechanics that enable players to force a close range fight. And preferably I want it in a way that those that want to play a ranged ship can still defend against it. I also want to make sure that ranged ships keep doing their proper damage rather than getting nerfed into oblivion in hopes to achieve the best balance with the fewest mechanics. I'm saying that the current set cannot be balanced properly and is going to favor brawlers as it is now. And when it favors brawlers, you can just as well remove anything except for chaingun and mortar, because the rest is just pointless.
The sooner you stop using absolutes in this game, the better. Every pilot won't confirm that if an enemy ship gets close to a galleon, that it will die, because i prove that wrong on a daily basis.
I just won a 2v2 with my team being spires and the opposing team being pyramidions. One of my crew took a picture of that. The game that followed was dual spire against two galleons, which we also won. When I'm talking in here, I expect players to be competent; and when a competent crew mans a ship that gets into the galleon's dead zone, the galleon is dead.
While a smoke gun wouldn't be a bad concept, it certainly wont get you closer to anything. How is it going to move forward? What is stopping me from seeing a giant artificial cloud, and immediately shooting at it?
You shoot the smoke ahead of you, two clouds in different directions. You then use either of those clouds for cover and you repeat the process. Then when you're finally close enough, you come out of the cloud and attack your target. This balances out because said target can use a flare gun to spot inside those clouds, but if he guesses badly, you've already moved up a bit on him. Now, you're not making tiny clouds here, if you make them to small, of course they know where you are, hence you need to make them big enough so the ship can avoid being shot at even inside the clouds.
So let's focus on what is happening here, and that is potential Heavy Flak changes, because it's apparent that it was using lesmok as a crutch to make itself useful, which is flawed.
Exactly, but it's flawed because the guns are balanced around the currently existing mechanics and around the metagame we would like to see. This gives us a very narrow area to balance in and within that area the gun can be correctly balanced to the preferred meta. That is also the point of my posts, it's not that these guns ever were really strong, it's just that players are unable to deal with ranged fighters because they lack the tools to do so. Give them these tools and the balance of ranged weapons will fall into place quite handsomely.
-
More ways are being added to allow ships to approach long range ships. I've added additional cloud cover and reduced the effectiveness and easy of use of the Field Gun. They're small steps but I think are important ones. Hyper long range (1500m or more) engagements (with killing at those ranges) doesn't really differentiate GoIO from other shooters. This game really shines at close to mid range combat when you see ships moving tactically, broadsiding, etc... Long range is still pretty interesting though but there are fewer options for those engagements to take place (Heavy Flak after the coming hot patch). In general, yes I want to bring combat closer.
The way guns behave (damage, damage types, etc...) will need to be changed in order to facilitate the move in this direction. Things aren't going to change drastically, that's not what I want either. Gentle nudges and realignments. Some potential changes and effects are regrettably missed, but sometimes it reveals other issues (like Lesmok + Heavy Flak crutch). Also, we'll need to implements new mechanics as well to ensure that these engagement ranges are possible and can be pulled off not easily but with medium amount of effort. A cloud creation skill is in the works, we have the hooks for it so it just needs some tweaking (Tar Barrel). Other ideas include the addition of impulse force (like when you hit a mine you get pushed a little) to weapons or specialize it to a single weapon so that you can deny angles to some extent. This will also be important as we reexamine CP maps and how they do and don't work for us.
Some ideas I've mentioned are very experimental so take what I've said with a grain of salt. This is just to give everyone an idea of where the game is going and what things we're working on to improve it.
-
So again, I stuck a low level gunner (level two this time) on my Merc/Flak Spire, told him how the ammo worked on that gun, and let him have a field day killing ships at all ranges. My gungineer used buffed charged rounds on the Merc while the gunner used Lesmok, charged, and loch. The Flak absolutely still has extreme killing power at long ranges. We didn't get a lesmok kill without our ally keeping the target distracted. We used lesmok on a charging Pyra to cause some damage, then the charged as he gets closer, and finally the Loch, easy kill. The same pyra tried to charge us a few more times, only getting us once from a well coordinated sneak ram.
Lesmok's change in no way makes the Flak useless, nor even harder to use. Seriously, try using it in a fight instead of speculating what the changes have done.
I find the change better simply for the fact that I have seen the flak used considerably less, meaning more kills for me and my crew. <3
-
This.
We didn't get a lesmok kill without our ally keeping the target distracted.
This is how the game was meant to be played. This is why we will never do 1v1 maps. It was a huge mistake having them in the early days. This is why Squids are useful :)
-
I'm gonna go ahead and say this: I retract my original opinion. This isn't a nerf to the heavy flak. If anything, the extra range is a buff. But I still think the gun could use some help, since its role is very niche.
-
Idea puke time:
If I could mess with the flaks, I'd give them both explosive direct damage and shattering AoE damage, make them medium-long range weapons with much less jitter (if any), give them an arming time that makes them useless at short range, make their clips 3 to 4 times larger, and then balance damage as needed. Basically, I'd like to see them in a long-range support role (engine/gun disablement and hull destruction).
This of course would create overlap with the Mercury and Artemis. So, I would make the Mercury either piercing only or piercing with a very very small shatter radius. As for the Artemis . . . idk, maybe we could do something whacky with it, like a wire-guided function where you have to turn the gun to guide the missile to its target (tech was developed for this by the germans in WWII, but it's probably just a little too high tech lol)
Make both mortars explosive only (direct and AoE), eliminate their arming time, add a touch of jitter to them, and cut their range down some, so they're limited to melee-short range engagements.
Just throwing things on the table to make flaks more interesting *shrugs*
-
Why would you want the lumberjack to be pure explosive? That'd leave us with three explosive heavy guns, one of which would be ridiculously overpowered.
-
Why would you want the lumberjack to be pure explosive? That'd leave us with three explosive heavy guns, one of which would be ridiculously overpowered.
Like I said, it's just a random idea. My main focus was on making the flak cannons more interesting, not so much changing the other stuff.