Author Topic: Typhon, Heavy Flak Discussion.  (Read 82248 times)

Offline awkm

  • Muse Games
  • Salutes: 77
    • [Muse]
    • 16 
    • 45
    • 28 
    • View Profile
    • Notes for Next Century—n4n100
Re: Typhon, Heavy Flak Discussion.
« Reply #75 on: August 14, 2013, 02:05:34 pm »
Floats, good granularity but very confusing to communicate.

Offline Echoez

  • Member
  • Salutes: 40
    • [Gent]
    • 16 
    • 28
    • 37 
    • View Profile
Re: Typhon, Heavy Flak Discussion.
« Reply #76 on: August 14, 2013, 02:40:43 pm »
Well, then we disagree on the extra shell life as it currently looks. Why do you think adding extra shell life would help? Maybe there's something I'm missing.

Well, it depents on what you consider 'Long Range', for example I don't believe that 1000 meters as a vanilla range is considered long range, it's medium range, hence why the Heavy Flak was always crippled at long range without Lesmok (which boosted its total range to 1600).

Increased shell life, while not messing with much other than the projectile will just drop more over range (since it lives longer), still increases how far it can reach, hence rewarding skillfull long range shots with it if you can make them while right now the projectile will just 'pop' after 1000 meters (or 1800 if you are using the new Lesmok)

Offline Rainer Zu Fall

  • CA Mod
  • Salutes: 26
    • [Prof]
    • 27 
    • 40
    • 38 
    • View Profile
Re: Typhon, Heavy Flak Discussion.
« Reply #77 on: August 14, 2013, 02:42:48 pm »
The post I asked you if you agreed with is talking about just that: It would put the heavy flak more into it's niche, however, you may create a new merc with that - and I don't think we want that. I don't see the range as a problem, to be honest.

Also summing up my thoughts about mortar adjustements:
Decreasing the mortar's range would make lesmok still necessary with particular kinds of playing, without pushing it too far in direction of being OP when using other rounds. The usage of other rounds though would be induced. Don't know if this is enough to nerf it a bit, but might be worth thinking about it. Maybe a little change might be necessary besides this one.
You may want to think about decreasing the damage a little bit, but only a little bit though. This would lead to more usage of burst, charged or lochnagar and balance with the light flak in terms of killing power (as well as other guns).
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 02:44:55 pm by RainerZuFall »

Offline Zenark

  • Member
  • Salutes: 41
    • [Cake]
    • 5
    • View Profile
Re: Typhon, Heavy Flak Discussion.
« Reply #78 on: August 14, 2013, 02:53:43 pm »
I think yall need to lose your dependency on lesmok >.<

With the merc changes, it seems like the default "long range" has decreased and what used to be long range is now very long range. At >1000m it's SUPPOSED to be hard to hit a target. If you want to hit at such extreme ranges you have to have a drawback, the drawback is one less shot.

Offline Echoez

  • Member
  • Salutes: 40
    • [Gent]
    • 16 
    • 28
    • 37 
    • View Profile
Re: Typhon, Heavy Flak Discussion.
« Reply #79 on: August 14, 2013, 03:03:39 pm »
Well for the ships this gun has to be used on, having such low range isn't beneficial at all.

The Spire and the Galleon are incurably slow moving and can't bring the gun into the fight easily, while the Goldfish, despite being fast moving, is rendered completely reliant on its ally to use the Flak. Hence why you need the extra range, else the weapon isn't realy all the effective. Usable? Maybe. Effective? Not realy.

Offline Rainer Zu Fall

  • CA Mod
  • Salutes: 26
    • [Prof]
    • 27 
    • 40
    • 38 
    • View Profile
Re: Typhon, Heavy Flak Discussion.
« Reply #80 on: August 14, 2013, 03:13:39 pm »
That's why you should use lesmok. Use lesmok to shoot them from a much further range and afterwards switch to burst/charged/lochnagar to deal real damage.

Offline Captain Smollett

  • Member
  • Salutes: 122
    • [Duck]
    • 11
    • 14 
    • View Profile
Re: Typhon, Heavy Flak Discussion.
« Reply #81 on: August 14, 2013, 03:15:44 pm »
That's why you should use lesmok. Use lesmok to shoot them from a much further range and afterwards switch to burst/charged/lochnagar to deal real damage.

I think that is the correct strategy, as it has always been.  The problem is, the lesmok changes have caused that strategy to lose a lot of potency.

Offline Rainer Zu Fall

  • CA Mod
  • Salutes: 26
    • [Prof]
    • 27 
    • 40
    • 38 
    • View Profile
Re: Typhon, Heavy Flak Discussion.
« Reply #82 on: August 14, 2013, 03:19:02 pm »
Well, that's why I suggested what I have written many times before. If you like take a look at it and tell me if you agree with it or have other thoughts on it! I'd like to hear them.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

  • CA Mod
  • Salutes: 144
    • [MM]
    • 31 
    • 44
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Typhon, Heavy Flak Discussion.
« Reply #83 on: August 14, 2013, 05:20:46 pm »
Idk. You get an easier to shoot flak at max range but with one ammo. Giving it three rounds (so then two with lesmok) then equates to just an easier heavy flak. In some cases that might be nice (on goldfish and spire), but in others would be a glimpse back to old heavy flak (more along organized play, since timing would equate to insta-kills when hull armor goes).

Heavy flak does what it does best, and that is kill or maim someone when their hull armor is down. If you are fighting at ranges above 1km, I don't think any gun should kill you one one clip on its own. It should be more of an attrition fight. Some say high risk and high reward, but fighting at those ranges is in itself less risk, especially with good gunners.

I know I was one of the first to jump on the new lesmok changes, and they will probably still get tweaked, but it's must less game shattering than I think it's made out to be. I do still want to test a fire rate change instead of ammo reduction.

Offline Twinkie D-Lite

  • Member
  • Salutes: 12
    • [KG]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 16 
    • View Profile
Re: Typhon, Heavy Flak Discussion.
« Reply #84 on: August 14, 2013, 06:45:27 pm »
Well if it stays as is we still have a problem. I know the Captain achievements call for kills at 2000+m, That aint gonna happen unless you have the whole team with mercs and you happen to get off the kill shot. I know as a gunner I need 500 parts at 2000+m. So, when we all start to overuse the lumberjack will it be next on the chopping block?

Offline RearAdmiralZill

  • CA Mod
  • Salutes: 144
    • [MM]
    • 31 
    • 44
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Typhon, Heavy Flak Discussion.
« Reply #85 on: August 14, 2013, 06:48:19 pm »
Well if it stays as is we still have a problem. I know the Captain achievements call for kills at 2000+m, That aint gonna happen unless you have the whole team with mercs and you happen to get off the kill shot. I know as a gunner I need 500 parts at 2000+m. So, when we all start to overuse the lumberjack will it be next on the chopping block?

Muse has already stated they plan to revise the achievements based on the evolving game changes.

Offline awkm

  • Muse Games
  • Salutes: 77
    • [Muse]
    • 16 
    • 45
    • 28 
    • View Profile
    • Notes for Next Century—n4n100
Re: Typhon, Heavy Flak Discussion.
« Reply #86 on: August 14, 2013, 06:52:40 pm »
Achievements will be updated as meta is updated.  It's going to lag behind a little bit because the achievement is literally a lumbering giant beast where if you poke one thing it will totally fall over on itself, more so than balance.

Relax, we got you covered.

Offline Letus

  • Member
  • Salutes: 34
    • [SAC]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 33 
    • View Profile
Re: Typhon, Heavy Flak Discussion.
« Reply #87 on: August 15, 2013, 04:31:10 am »
All I can say is that I am making a guide for this weapon....
(kinda plan to make a guide for all the heavy weapons, at the least) and all that remains is a video....and changing of numbers (like what I have to do to another guide.)

Lesmok may have been the easy tool to use, but...well...like other guns, learning to use other shots and when...that's my goal.  (Pretty much going for a campaign that Gunner is not the "easiest" or "useless" class as many believe....)

The fact that Lesmok reduces it down to 1 makes me think, I can use it for long range still...maybe not killing power, but that 295 damage if the hull is out...that's gonna scare a few people.  The closing range will allow for more charged, burst, maybe loch...and heatsink...(heatsink's clip does as much damage as the Lochnagar shot...and is the third shortest range...think about it.)


Do I think the lesmok fix hurt the gun?  Yes.  Do I think there are ways around it?  Yes.

Offline Rainer Zu Fall

  • CA Mod
  • Salutes: 26
    • [Prof]
    • 27 
    • 40
    • 38 
    • View Profile
Re: Typhon, Heavy Flak Discussion.
« Reply #88 on: August 15, 2013, 10:54:19 am »
I'm waiting with my answer until I tested the new idea.

Idk. You get an easier to shoot flak at max range but with one ammo. Giving it three rounds (so then two with lesmok) then equates to just an easier heavy flak. In some cases that might be nice (on goldfish and spire), but in others would be a glimpse back to old heavy flak (more along organized play, since timing would equate to insta-kills when hull armor goes).

Heavy flak does what it does best, and that is kill or maim someone when their hull armor is down. If you are fighting at ranges above 1km, I don't think any gun should kill you one one clip on its own. It should be more of an attrition fight. Some say high risk and high reward, but fighting at those ranges is in itself less risk, especially with good gunners.

I know I was one of the first to jump on the new lesmok changes, and they will probably still get tweaked, but it's must less game shattering than I think it's made out to be. I do still want to test a fire rate change instead of ammo reduction.

You might be right about that.
I don't think a gun should be able to kill someone in one clip or even one shot either, but only attracting the enemy is not enough on the other hand.
Fire rate change sounds like a quite good idea, gotta take a look into the new version though. Can't say anything apart from that.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 10:58:18 am by RainerZuFall »

Offline Captain Smollett

  • Member
  • Salutes: 122
    • [Duck]
    • 11
    • 14 
    • View Profile
Re: Typhon, Heavy Flak Discussion.
« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2013, 04:22:55 pm »
After some serious thought on the matter, I have to admit; I've had a change of heart.

I no longer think increasing flak clip size is the best way to go.  It just takes too much fun away from the gun.  That super high risk high reward, only two shots and you better make them mentality, the visual of watching the first shot literally bend and twist the enemy ship and the second shot smashing it to pieces is too awesome to give up.  The Flak gun for me was always the most satisfying gun to use, a giant cannon that only did one thing, but it did it well.

Emotions aside here's some balancing reasoning to back this up.  With a 4 shot Flak cannon you get into a bit of a pickle:  Either lesmok will be way too weak (the current problem) or burst will be way too strong (people's deepest fears).

My proposed solution is quite simple.  I think the simplest way to buff the gun is to, well just buff the gun (stay with me here now).

The problem with lesmok as it stands is that it's just too weak.  If you hit someone with it; there's a good chance they'll still be charging in at you and kill you while you're in arm time.  I think the way to fix this and to fix the gun in general is two fold:

1) Increase the lifespan of the shot, so that vanilla rounds travel farther.  I think this is something most people agree would be good for the gun.  Anyone that can hit at 1.4km on time and on hull with vanilla rounds twice deserves the kill.

2) Increase the overall damage of the gun, but backload it onto the aoe damage, not impact.  Instead of 147 impact and 148 aoe, change the damage to 147 and 243. 

     Here's why this helps:  By upping the damage of the aoe, a lesmok shot goes from doing 400 pure hull damage outside of arm to 546.  With this change lesmok will make it so even though you don't kill most ships (other than a Junker providing you can hit it) you'll be able to severely cripple them so that you or your ally can finish them off much more easily if they enter arm time.  This will also change the flak from a very high risk high reward weapon to a high risk high reward weapon since even though you won't be able to one shot kill; you'll get a lot more bang for your buck if you only make one shot.

     Now for all you that are still suffering trauma from the claiming the Fjords tournament, here's why this is still balanced:  Heavy flak, prior to 1.31 was always able to two shot kill ships and one shot kill Junkers with charged rounds or almost with a buffed lesmok gun and was by no means considered op.  It still won't be able to two shot a goldfish or a galleon.  Even more importantly, getting within arm time will still allow the same amount of safety as before due to all of the damage increase being back loaded on aoe damage therefore not being active withing arm time.

TL;DR  Heavy Flaks with two shots are more fun and easier to balance. 

Increase the range vanilla rounds can travel to give highly skilled gunners a chance to make mid range kills.

Increase aoe damage without imbalancing the gun so long range lesmok shots are meaningful and mid range shots give a greater reward if shots are missed.

awkm - would we be able to test these changes (also I didn't include it here but could we do it with the old arming time?)