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Burst ammo, oh no. Artemis, why you so good?

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Naoura:
@Zill

I can agree with that, and especially with the projectile speed. Over-packed charges would make it travel much slower. However, if you nerf the AoE alongside all of the other nerfs, I think it would really become eh.

With a clip drop and traversal drop, maybe just nerf the AoE by 10%? Instead of dropping it into the 30's range, keep it up in the 40's, making the shots a little bit more lenient while still requiring a gunner to lead the target a little more significantly. Punish wild shooting by a nerf in clip, make hits slightly more difficult with a slower traversal speed, and leave the rate of fire where it is. RoF is fine where it is in my opinion.

and the only reason I was saying to give a damage boost was in the event AoE dropped into the 20's range. Without the wider area to hit, what's the point? Small damage boost to increase the likelihood of a disable inside the otherwise smallish AoE would make it slightly more viable. But then again, that's what charged is supposed to do.

Daft Loon:
I'd be happy to just see the clip size change removed, reducing the AOE kinda removes the entire point of burst especially on more marginal uses like banshee/hades/mine.
After that the main thing is changes to charged or artemis/hwacha to give a second useful ammo type that improves raw damage enough for people to bother with.

For the artemis what do people think about swapping its vertical arcs - 35 up, 10 down? It gives targets more cover on most maps, gets the mobulas closer to the ground at the start of fights and makes mixing in some banshee and light flak more important.

Naoura:
Reversing the arc would be interesting... it would make more sense on a missile sling, of course, but might make the Mob a little stronger. Lower to the ground, harder to hit it's balloon, but more susceptible to hull damaging. It'd certainly upset the triple art Junker, due to the weakness of the Junker's balloon.

And now to see the rise of the Triple Banshee Junker. Our rocket-trails will blot out the sun.

MightyKeb:

--- Quote from: RearAdmiralZill on November 08, 2016, 01:03:27 am ---Thanks for the feedback! To address:



As for the arcs, i'm all for nerfing its down arcs too for the reasons you provide, but didn't think I could get away with suggesting nerfing them a whole lot combined with a horizontal nerf. My biggest reason for suggesting the nerf the horizonal arcs  is to avoid 3 Artemis firing at once. No other sniping weapon can do this, so I don't see a reason why it should be able to (yes, I'm looking at you Junker). If you throw enough shit at the wall, it'll stick. If we have to keep the horizontal up for the sake of mobula builds, I'd insist on that downward arc nerf as well. 20-25?

--- End quote ---

Here's the thing though. Mobula isn't the only reason the sideways arcs should be kept. Artemis is one of the few long range guns that hasn't had it's versatility destroyed with arming times. Which is why you'll also have to consider how it does in close range too. The fact of the matter is, Artemis is the only remaining -close- range light disable gun in the game atm. Carronade and Gatling used to be good substitutes, but since the carronade/heavy clip nerfs, while they are still usable on a case-by-case basis, they're unreliable at best. Unless the sideways arcs are brought down to hades-level, triple art junkers will continue to be a thing - it'll just destroy the hades-double artemis, which is ways better than triple art by the way because of The Law of Diminishing Returns.

It will also destroy, as I've mentioned a moment ago - brawling artemis builds. The sideways arcs are the only thing that give it the edge over other brawling weapons, while it's horrible turning speed is much, much more abusable in a brawling scenario, as shown here: https://youtu.be/JycEviYCl-0?t=148

Here, being the pilot of St.Glaswegian Kiss, I'm going up agains't a metamidion and a gat-art pyramidion. How I got into the position to make such an approach is irrelevant, but notice how as soon as the artemis starts firing on my direction, I hit full speed moonshine because I know I can glide past it's turning speed to get free damage on his ally and eventually make a kill with the help of my ally, who's also running gat-art, who is instead prepared for the engagement and has his guns aiming in the correct direction from the start. I die a bit early, but only because I tried ramming at the end. The point being that artemis becomes poorer at reacting to surprises the closer you get. While I understand your concerns regarding Artemis' abuse on ranged builds, nerfing the sideways arcs will not only change very little about how they're used at ranges (since big arcs don't matter very much at ranged combat, see: merc) but it will also hand the whole close-range combat meta to Hwachas and especially hwachafishes when all close range disabling options are erased from this game.


I hope I've made my point clear. I personally don't have many problems with artemis spam but I'm glad there's still some semblance of discussion left on these forums.

RearAdmiralZill:
Revised, proposed burst changes: 0% clip size (ie. same as normal), -15% rof, 35% - 40% aoe, -5%-10%-15% reduced projectile speed.

Given the conversion and feedback these are where i think we're at for testing. I'll give leeway on the aoe hit and add reduced projectile speed but at the lowest levels of any ammo, both to not make the hit too hard + not make it some weird arming ammo sensation. I like the idea of making accuracy a big deal with the changes to compensate for the increased "boom" potential.

@Daft: Im not certain a vertical arc inversion would fit for the Artemis, plus cause all kinds of weird issues like Naoura describes with the hit to a junker vs a mobula in a way I don't think is needed. This is mostly tied to the fact the rocket flies straight instead of the sniping projectiles that fall at range too. Id test it out  of sheer curiosity but that's about all right now.

@MightyKeb: Exactly, Artemis doesn't have arming, which I'd never suggest for this weapon. However, this is a huge advantage in itself for its class of weaponry. Long range guns by design also have smaller arcs for (my opinion) their power over said ranges. So you have to turn your ship to get arcs more often. This makes the most sense to me given I haven't suggested any changes to its core values. These guns shouldn't brawl easily, just like every other weapon with its power-over-range can't. I'd argue it's still way better because of the lack of arming, which is fine. Sure the gun is "bad" with surprises, but it can react better than any other long range weapon because the arcs allow it to. The burst changes are what will really effect the devastation at range, and the close range nerf + spam nerf via arcs. I don't think they will suddenly be useless for disables up close with this, but the pilot will have to do something.

I appreciate all the continued feedback everyone.

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