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Burst ammo, oh no. Artemis, why you so good?

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RearAdmiralZill:
Ahoy all. Hope you're ready for me Awkm  ;D

First, lemme give you the stats I'm interested in:

Burst stats:
+20% clip size, -15% rof, +50% aoe

Arty Stats:
Arcs: 10 up, 35 down, 65 across
Clip: 4

Hwacha Stats:
Arcs: 20 up/down, 30 across
Clip: 20

Now lets be serious. Fellow rocket lovers, we all know Burst ammo is the go-to these days for these lovely guns. It adds ammo cause, yea I don't really know why either. The rate of fire gets a hit cause, there has to be a downside somewhere right? And the stat we all love, 50% aoe. We just want to watch the world explode. My main targets here are Burst ammo and Artemis combined. Hwacha is in here cause these changes will effect it too, which frankly it can handle it. Banshee would also take a "hit," but a majority of people like greased in there anyway, and I dont feel these changes would all of a sudden break it. If you use burst ammo for something else, let me know!

Burst ammo is the easy button for rockets. Can't aim? Buff that aoe and you get to be a pro at disabling all the things. Here's the problem, its too much. Artemis in particular, which when put in groups of 2 or god forbid 3, disables all the important things on a boat in one clip, easy. One aint too bad, but can still break a good deal.

My proposed burst changes: 0%-10% clip size, -15% rof, 25%-30%-35% aoe

Again, why does it give more ammo? Hwacha doesn't need the help. Want more damage? Use a different ammo for that kill, or buff it with that hammer. Arty, sorry man but you lose one shot before reload. That's still two disables worth on heavy guns if you aim well. If you're worried about the kill potential, these aren't supposed to be great kill guns. They will still do the job, just a touch slower. 10% max if you insist. Shouldn't give the Artemis an extra shot, and give the the Hwacha 2 vs 4.

Aoe, well hear me out. Hwacha gets 20 rockets. Spray and pray, it will still do what's needed, and require you to miss less. Artemis gunners will have to aim better. The rocket goes straight anyway, sooooooo. I wouldn't mind the heavy hand and change of 25% to test, see how it goes. Not worth taking? Aight 35% max. I don't want to make it worthless. But I want the change to have a feel.

My proposed Artemis change: Arc: 35 across

Why on Earth does the Artemis have such good horizontal arcs? This is a long range sniping gun by design. That 65 across is only second to the Flare. Like really. 35 is the same arc as the Hades, the second best arcs for a long range weapon. Might as well start there. Incoming Mobula changes will help so you can still keep that double Arty going. I just want the ability to flank and dodge your fire, cause right now, nope.

Like these ideas? Let me know! Don't? Tell me why, and tell me what else we can try, cause you will not convince me that current Burst and Artemis stats (and Hwacha a tad by association) aren't a bane to every other build and idea right now.

Dementio:
I don't mind any of these changes, with two exceptions:

The difference in AoE is difficult to notice and if the gain is not high enough, then why bring it in the first place, except that the next best ammo for pure Artemis sniping is probably the normal ammo type, then you might as well go with the little gain in AoE. Hwacha doesn't really change with any nerf to burst ammo, it can still do its job with even Charged rounds, you might get one less accidental engine disable, which is again not something anybody would really notice.

The Mobula guns arcs will be reverted to 45 degrees for the top ones and 35 for the bottom ones. With a nerf to Artemis gun arcs, you will end up with the same issue as the previous Mobula gun arc nerf: Mobulas with pretty much only bottom deck double Artemis with a Gatling/Mine and a Flare on top wings. I swear, I am the only pilot in competitive that doesn't always put double Artemis on the bottom deck or another long range gun like the Flak and Banshee and then the second Artemis on top deck, for long range Mobula-ing.
What I could deal with a lot better than a nerf to the horizontal arcs to less than 50 degrees is a nerf to the downwards arcs. Increasing the top arcs would just invalidate Carronades even more so that can't happen and Lumberjack too would end up with some more problems. But forcing the Mobula to be more on level with enemy ships by going down would open up a lot more options for said enemy ships, especially in close range, maybe even Lumberjack Spires. It would also encourage the use of other long range guns in synergy with the Hades' great vertical arcs, like Banshees and Flaks. That, plus the pretty much guaranteed nerf in vertical acceleration to the Mobula would make sniping Mobulas a lot more risky, without invalidating any builds again.

Atruejedi:
Been saying this for a while ( derrrrp )

The Artemis isn't the problem; the choice ammo is. Burst is used for the AoE. Giving it an extra rocket makes it OP (well, not technically OP...) and does not incentivize using different ammos. The slower firing rate is fine. If it needs another nerf beyond removing the clip size bonus, if anything, make it turn the gun a tiny bit slower. That way, you're incentivized to not use it when at closer ranges.

Naoura:
I've always wondered why Burst gave extra to the clip. It never made any sense, due to, lorewise, the rockets being over-packed with explosives in order to give it a more powerful warhead. I would definitely say a -15% clip size would work well to reward accuracy while still allowing for lenience on impact, but if you nerf the burst range to 25%, would a small boost to damage make it more viable? Something like 10-15%?

Smaller clip, the usual slower rate of fire, less fantastic burst radius, but more damaging inside said burst radius. That work well in hand with Jedi's suggestion on a buff to Charged, and then even more so on a back-track on the Loch changes. That way, Burst still gives the powerful radius and still makes it nice and viable, but it does mean you have to be more accurate. Meanwhile, Charged would provide significantly more damage, and perhaps a smaller AoE? More of a direct ammo type than an AoE type, but provides the same clip with a much, much slower fire speed.

I know this counteracts the other post that asked for an incen boost of roughly the same amount, but perhaps you could buff the fire rate. Incen rounds are only weapons treated with some form of incendiary chemicals or minerals, such as phosphorus, so the drop of the fire rate doesn't make as much sense. The rounds aren't any larger, just with a different warhead.

RearAdmiralZill:
Thanks for the feedback! To address:

@Dementio: This is why I gave the aoe options. 50% is simply too much. I two shot heavy guns without even hitting it directly (so two firing at the same time, yea). Normal rounds can't do that (it damages it, but cant bust), so tweaking this is a must. I agree that finding the "sweet spot" is key else why even take burst after these changes. Artemis' inherent aoe may need reduction to sort this out too. I don't have those numbers though. And I'm not referring to the damage amount, just the aoe range when it explodes.

As for the arcs, i'm all for nerfing its down arcs too for the reasons you provide, but didn't think I could get away with suggesting nerfing them a whole lot combined with a horizontal nerf. My biggest reason for suggesting the nerf the horizonal arcs  is to avoid 3 Artemis firing at once. No other sniping weapon can do this, so I don't see a reason why it should be able to (yes, I'm looking at you Junker). If you throw enough shit at the wall, it'll stick. If we have to keep the horizontal up for the sake of mobula builds, I'd insist on that downward arc nerf as well. 20-25?

@Jedi: Then post in the Gameplay forums where that belongs :P. Artemis stats are fine except for their arcs in my opinion, and combined with burst it's just a nightmare. A gun rotation nerf to burst could work as you describe, but I think Artemis arc changes would be better.

@Naoura: I feel a clip reduction beyond removing the buff it gives now with all the other proposed changes would further make the ammo too "eh" to take. If we find the good spot for aoe range, a damage buff isn't necessary either. These guns do good damage already, and like you say, charged needs this role. Then you have to choose between more damage or better disable.

Id be more for reducing the rof to maybe 20% to slow the dps over lowering the ammo counts. That or slowing the projectiles some. Big explosive things tend to move slower than the smaller ammo if you want lore in there.

Keep it coming all! I hope for these specific changes to make it into the next patch cycle in some tested form to fix the issue at hand.

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