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Burst ammo, oh no. Artemis, why you so good?

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RearAdmiralZill:
Bumping to raise the awareness. Want to see what people think of my revised changes to burst ammo.

Atruejedi:
Inverting the Artemis vertical arc is just... strange and unnecessary. The Artemis itself isn't the problem; the ubiquitous Burst ammo used in it is. Nerf the extra rocket and it becomes much less of a problem.

The Artemis having almost no ability to aim upwards is seriously its Achilles heel, makes using it and flying with it unique, and makes gameplay very interesting with it... for example, you KNOW if you see an Artemis Mob/Junker you HAVE to stay ABOVE him to have a chance; this is a GOOD thing because damaging the enemy balloon will HELP you. If the arcs were reversed, well, shit, damaging his balloon would just keep putting the Artemis-equipped enemy IN arc! Bad idea, bad idea.

Also, having crewed on MagicMetalMan's Gatling/Artemis Pyramidion... I can tell you it simply doesn't work (but he, of course, refuses to admit this ;D ) because of the Artemis's lack of an upward firing arc. He wants to ram (it's his natural instinct!), but as soon as he gets too close, firing that Artemis effectively (or at all!) becomes very difficult.

Also, what would an upward-firing Artemis do to ships like the Spire? So weird. Do not want.

I stand by my proposed, overly simplistic suggestion to Burst ammo: just get rid of the extra clip size. I'm against reducing the projectile speed and the AoE if those nerfs are in addition to the clip size "reduction." Plus, remember: Muse is going to test Burst ammo in the Dev App with a universal 1 meter AoE effect on all weapons. So, patience!

Daft Loon:

--- Quote from: RearAdmiralZill on November 09, 2016, 07:34:16 pm ---Revised, proposed burst changes: 0% clip size (ie. same as normal), -15% rof, 35% - 40% aoe, -5%-10%-15% reduced projectile speed.

Given the conversion and feedback these are where i think we're at for testing. I'll give leeway on the aoe hit and add reduced projectile speed but at the lowest levels of any ammo, both to not make the hit too hard + not make it some weird arming ammo sensation. I like the idea of making accuracy a big deal with the changes to compensate for the increased "boom" potential.

--- End quote ---

I wouldn't mid testing that, thinking about the Hwacha I'm actually on board with the speed reduction now, if Heavy clip also had its clip size reduction removed the hwacha would be in a good place again I think.


--- Quote from: Atruejedi on November 18, 2016, 11:46:17 am ---... for example, you KNOW if you see an Artemis Mob/Junker you HAVE to stay ABOVE him to have a chance...

--- End quote ---

This is pretty much why I thought of flipping the arcs, because since the carronades stopped being useful as attack from below weapons that's the strategy against every single ship, just about the only time being below someone is useful is when the plan is to hydrogen up past them before being seen.

What I want is for the Junker and Mobula to have some reason not to immediately rise to the height ceiling at the start of every game and only come down via Lumberjack.

Balloon damage will still be useful vs artemis too because if you drop low they have to follow to shoot you, at which point they are already close to the ground when you start popping them.

SteamBrains:
The points you raised were very interesting! I agree with most of them, I'm definitely for the gun arc changes for Artemis. Ever since the mobula arcs were spread out the first time, it's been basically mandatory for Artemis on mobula. (but double banshee double flak for me :P) I think nerfing the Artemis arcs would open up the door for some more variation in mobula builds. Which would be awesome. And yeah inverting the arcs would be weird. The only current upside to taking a mobula without Artemis is that it can take full potential of its balloon capabilities and skim low, then harass a ship while being able to use its gun arcs. The Artemis restricts it to being a high flying sniper platform, no problem with that, but if the arcs get restricted, people may start seeing some more interesting builds and tactics. The burst changes are very reasonable too, I like the most recent proposed change. The only thing I would also want to consider is to not nerf the Artemis arcs enough, so that they aren't viable on a spire. While I'm all for stopping (or just hindering) sniper mobs, that spire should be able to capitalize on Artemis. I didn't have too much of a problem with sniper Junkers too, I think their not too bad of offenders. I guess this reply kinda morphed into "nerf the Artemis" sorry :/ but I like those ideas!

River Turtle:
Variable bonuses to AoE could make for a whole new tactic of play.  I'm just making up some numbers here, but say in a five round burst arty clip, the bonus to AoE is 30% for the first round, and increases 5% for each one after that until it resets at the next reload.  Depending on the range and desired style of the initial engagement, it might be worth it to fire off four rounds into a cliff beforehand in order to start the battle with the extra good round.
 
Or maybe it's regressive, making the shooter decide whether it's beneficial to fire the next rocket quickly, or if the extra AoE is worth the time of a reload.

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