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SCS rules discussions
Dementio:
--- Quote from: Red-Xiii on September 06, 2016, 12:16:03 pm ---I understand over time people wanted the match time reduced. I get that. However it shouldnt be reduced at the expense of the players. Some captains play the long chess game. Others are agressive/reactive. You would be forcing us all to get aggressive or go home. I don't agree with that.
--- End quote ---
There are 20min total playtime, plus 3min overtime and primary tactics can be pre-determined in the 4min of lobby and 1min loading into the game. You have to get at least one kill in 23min. How aggressive does a team have to play to get one kill in 23min.
--- Quote from: Red-Xiii on September 06, 2016, 12:16:03 pm ---Coin flip should not at all be integrated into something you worked hard for week after week and to be just decided by chance.
--- End quote ---
Nobody has worked hard for SCS week after week. It is a completely new event that happens once every week, unless you are aiming for a winning streak, losing one SCS to a coin flip is not going to destroy hard work done week after week. Also, with one loss a team can still always get back to the finals and win it. What is the harm in playing "aggressively" once in 23min to gain another chance of winning the SCS?
Red-Xiii:
--- Quote from: Dementio on September 06, 2016, 02:10:09 pm ---
--- Quote from: Red-Xiii on September 06, 2016, 12:16:03 pm ---I understand over time people wanted the match time reduced. I get that. However it shouldnt be reduced at the expense of the players. Some captains play the long chess game. Others are agressive/reactive. You would be forcing us all to get aggressive or go home. I don't agree with that.
--- End quote ---
There are 20min total playtime, plus 3min overtime and primary tactics can be pre-determined in the 4min of lobby and 1min loading into the game. You have to get at least one kill in 23min. How aggressive does a team have to play to get one kill in 23min.
--- Quote from: Red-Xiii on September 06, 2016, 12:16:03 pm ---Coin flip should not at all be integrated into something you worked hard for week after week and to be just decided by chance.
--- End quote ---
Nobody has worked hard for SCS week after week. It is a completely new event that happens once every week, unless you are aiming for a winning streak, losing one SCS to a coin flip is not going to destroy hard work done week after week. Also, with one loss a team can still always get back to the finals and win it. What is the harm in playing "aggressively" once in 23min to gain another chance of winning the SCS?
--- End quote ---
Losing a single ScS to a coin flip is too much. And playing aggressively in itself is not an issue. Forcing you to do so is when it may or may not be your style, plan, or choice is. But that's just my opinion. With these player counts lately this all may be moot anyway. :'(
Guagadu:
Swapping loadouts mid-match:
It has never occurred to me that people would do this until a discussion about whether or not it happened. Unfortunately, this is very difficult to police, as players can simply hop in and out of a match as they please, with little risk of being noticed. I have not yet had a chance to cast an even since this was pointed out, but when I next cast I will definitely be looking a the ships much more frequently. I think the best solution is to have players leaving a match to show up in text chat, at least to spectators, and maybe even only in custom matches. However, until such a change to the game happens, the only solution is to have casters, co-casters and referees checking through them, if only toward the end of the match. This might not be possible, but my recommendation would be to encourage referees and co-casters to screenshot loadouts toward the end of the match.
Stream-sniping:
I personally have been accused of stream sniping in the past (see SCS 116 Finals #1). I always make sure to keep it muted, paused and in a background tab in a background window. Regardless, I show up as being in twitch chat. The best solution is to add more of a stream delay than default. By default, there is a 10-40 second delay (depending on Internet connections) through Twitch. Adding at least a minute should fix sniping for the most part, but I think the tab with Twitch should be completely closed, so that your username doesn't even show up.
Last Second Swap:
I always hate last second swapping, and unless I am mistaken, part of the reason the 30 second lock is set up is to avoid last second swapping, however it is done so anyways. I would suggest that if the timer is at less than one minute, the timer is reset such that there are still 30 seconds until the loadout lock. This would, however, likely be overly confusing and annoying for the referees, so I do not think this can be implemented. I do, however, like Dementio's suggestion as a solution for now:
--- Quote from: Dementio on September 06, 2016, 12:10:34 pm ---Regarding last second ship swaps
Increase the lobby timer to 5min and start the lock ships but not guns after 4min and there is enough time for tactics. That doesn't prevent last second gun switches though, so there is that.
--- End quote ---
Coin Flip:
I personally hate the coin flip. It is the most anti-climactic way to end a match, especially a tournament. However, the only solution I can think of would be to remove the coin flip and force the teams to fight it out. Deciding winners based on perma wouldn't be fair either, as sometimes it is difficult to judge how much health, and perma often has little effect when entering an engagement. I propose that the rules of overtime be switched. In any matches of the grand final or the lower bracket, overtime continues the entire 3 minutes IF the score is 0-0. I suggest that the overtime timer be increased for these cases as well, I'm just going to arbitrarily say 10 minutes for the finals and 5 minutes for lower bracket and ends for the first kill. Overtime would still be kept the same for anything besides 0-0. When the coin flip does happen, I would like to see it show up on stream, from a randomizer of some kind that simulates coin flips.
sparklerfish:
The coin flip is the worst when you are still in combat. In the case of the SCS that this came up in, the kill came approximately two seconds after time was called, but due to time being called, it went to a coin flip, and the team without the kill was awarded the win. Neither team was comfortable with that outcome, so the "winning" team conceded to the team that got the kill. I understand that it is difficult for many players to play indefinitely, and that a time limit is helpful for limiting endless sniping, but when there are ships that are close to death and combat is still actively ongoing, it seems kinda shitty to take a match that was about to come to its natural conclusion and instead predicate the outcome on total chance.
I like the idea of basing the outcome on perma. It feels much more like the battle is awarded to the team that came closest to winning. If a match ends 3-2, technically nobody "won" either because nobody got five kills, but we choose to award the win to the team that came closest to winning.
GurasOguras:
--- Quote from: Sir Steffen on September 06, 2016, 07:25:57 am ---- And in the last SCS the discussion about the coin flip came up as well.
--- End quote ---
The coinflip
--- Quote from: Sir Steffen on September 06, 2016, 07:25:57 am ---who managed to cause the most permahull damage to the enemy.
--- End quote ---
Don't take something analog as something digital. We never know how many permahull our ships have. All we have are just raw assumptions based on what we see on our health bars. Those are always measured on the eye and rounded. The unit to measure our permahull is % instead of actual HP number. 10% on a junker is not the same as 10% on a goldfish. Spectator health icons don't even have bars to count them and assume what is the actual health. It can't be enforced and it's not gonna work. Terrible idea. And even if you ignore everything I said here, then Daniel is still right. If it goes down to the last resort which is the coin flip, then both teams already have lost.
The coin flip is literally the best and most impartial thing we can do. I know some may think it's not good, but it has the one big feature - It is also not bad. It actually, physically CAN NOT BE BAD. It also eliminates human (referee) errors we'd have to suffer from any other rule. Just take a look at how much controversy a single, badly called pause can do.
So...
--- Quote from: Huskarr on September 06, 2016, 01:34:15 pm ---But on the other hand coin flips are kinda stupid.
--- End quote ---
It is not stupid. It's fair.
--- Quote from: sparklerfish on September 06, 2016, 03:49:42 pm ---it seems kinda shitty to take a match that was about to come to its natural conclusion and instead predicate the outcome on total chance.
--- End quote ---
Bullshit. You had entire 20 minutes to plan your moves and engage as you want. And now when it's already too late, NOW you wanna do something? Sorry bro, you're late. Both teams lost. Let the coin decide who is lucky today. We don't have the entire day to wait for one match to conclude. The engagement already had time to come to its natural conclusion during overtime.
Instead, I have an idea. Let's introduce a rule: If you take a Galleon you have no right to whine when you lose due to a coin flip, or because an opponent has timed you out. This actually provokes me to purposely score 1 point and then go into the corner next time I'll play in SCS. I'm serious. If you put everything on one card and choose a ship all of which focus on defense against the first engagement then don't blame your opponent that you've lost your gamble and are not allowed to have the opportunity to retaliate. The galleon is the least mobile ship in the game and relies purely on the defense. Your choice - your call. Just don't weep once you lose the first blood.
--- Quote from: Sir Steffen on September 06, 2016, 07:25:57 am ---- About what’s fair in terms of swapping ships in the last seconds before ship lock is announced.
--- End quote ---
Last second changes
Double the lobby time so teams can swap their ships back and forth for a longer time. That increases the chance of everyone being happy and finding their sweet spot before the match will start. It won't solve the problem, but might reduce its occurrence. There is currently no solution for this in the current "all pick" format.
Back in 2015, I proposed a draft system, when one side picks 1 ship, then other side picks their 2 and the first team picks their second ship, therefore resulting in each team hardcountering exactly 1 ship. But nobody gave a fuck. Instead, many still today want to turn the game into a gamble with blind picks and decide who won the match before it even started.
If we don't like the last second swapping, then let's introduce the draft system. I'm experienced competitive veteran so I actually benefit from being able to freely swap and counter and I admit that it gives me a bit of advantage over inexperienced in a "lobby game". If you want to make changes then make sure they leave no room for controversy, they're possible to execute and enforce and they're fair to competitors
--- Quote from: Sir Steffen on September 06, 2016, 07:25:57 am ---- About participants swapping ammo and tools during matches.
--- End quote ---
Prohibited. Keep it like that.
--- Quote from: Sir Steffen on September 06, 2016, 07:25:57 am ---- About participants listening to the streams during the match
--- End quote ---
Prohibited. Keep it like that.
If any referee will notice it then no hard feelings.
TL;DR
Problem? What problem? Why the heck are we even discussing all of this? Rules are perfect as they are.
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