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SCS rules discussions

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Sir Steffen:
Hello everyone.

For those who don’t know me, my name is Sir Steffen and I’m the current organizer of the Sunday Community Skirmish.

In the past weeks there have been discussions about the rules in SCS:

- About participants swapping ammo and tools during matches.
- About participants listening to the streams during the match.
- About what’s fair in terms of swapping ships in the last seconds before ship lock is announced.
- And in the last SCS the discussion about the coin flip came up as well.

In case of the last one, the whole lobby did not agree whit the outcome and asked for a change in the rules. They said that not a coin flip shout determine the outcome of a match but who managed to cause the most perma hull damage to the enemy.  Your thoughts on that?

Also, any ideas about how to eliminate the problem of unsporting last second ship changes? There’s a fine line between chutzpah and unsporting. And if some people have trouble navigating it, then we should give them some guide lines.

About the changing of loadout mid match: There are rules about this, but they are difficult to enforce. Huskarr and I have been trying to take screenshots of all the teams at the start of the match but this takes time and unnecessary effort. Same goes for the stream watching.
I have seen people complain about participants that are watching the stream during their own matches. If those accusations are true, I have no good words for this, non at all. I know some people follow the stream of course, but if you are playing, log out of the stream. That way we don’t get accusations of participants getting info from the stream. That means don’t run it in the background with the sound muted, because you will still be shown as a watcher. Just close the page and the whole problem is solved.
Surveillance and an atmosphere of distrust can’t be the solution to this problem. That’s when it stops to be fun.

I wanted to remind everyone that the SCS is hosted by players that sacrifice their own free time to set everything up and keep it going. The point where people go too far to win matches and lose the spirit of fairness and sportsmanship is the point where the volunteers - including me - just stop caring about the SCS.

So, if you enjoy the SCS and want it to continue, stick to the rules and play fair. Without trust and mutual respect there can’t be an SCS.
Make up your mind about this and also talk to your team mates. We need an effort from everybody to keep this great, exciting, fun thing working. This is your responsibility as participants just as much as it is ours as hosts.

Yours sincerely,

Sir Steffen

Sir Steffen:
Btw i hope i pointed everythink out there correctly. if i mist anythink plz let me know

Dementio:
Regarding coin flip
I am personally very ok with the coin flip. The coin flip only happens when a match ends in 0-0, right? If neither team managed to get a single kill in the entire match time plus overtime, then in my personal opinion they both lost the game. What I found interesting is that the match that this rule is referred to was not a hardcore long range sniping duel of dunes, but an almost consistent 1v1 battle between the same ships, and I believe the coin flip should teach both teams what they did wrong. A Galleon sniping from 1.5km at a Mobula will only miss, a Mobula not using the Galleon's arming time against it very likely won't kill the Galleon and if you can't kill that Goldfish as a Goldfish after 10min of brawling, why would you expect a kill to magically appear in the next 10? Both teams had time to realise that their tactics won't lead to anything and could have changed it up, neither did, so they both are at the mercy of their own luck.

Giving the win to the team with the most perma hull won't be that much better. It reminds me of the suggestion that if there is no first kill, then the first broken component should determine victory. But that's not quite the same. A ship sitting at 1% perma hull can still wreck a ship that is sitting at 100% perma hull and so victory shouldn't go off from there. My thinking is that it discourages aggressive tactics, where an exchange of a bit of lost perma hull can lead to a kill, the tie breaker. If the timer says 5min remaining and both ships of Team A are sitting pretty at above 80% hull health and know that Team B has got a ship sitting at less than 33% hull health, do you think Team A is going to attack? They are going to get as much distance as possible, unnecessarily drawing out the match, with Team B being forced to siucide charge them, because the rules gave Team A this advantage. Threaten them with a coin flip? Both teams want to secure themselves a victory and continue fighting without any team gaining an invisible advantage during the last few minutes. Also, Squids, touch something the wrong way, suddenly 70% of your health is gone and you lose, now everybody is blaming you for a mistake that wouldn't have happened on any other ship, because no other ship has that low armor and thus wouldn't have taken any perma hull damage at all.

Regarding last second ship swaps
There is no way to prevent it. You can only make it fairer by giving time to respond to it. Instead of locking ships, allow guns to be switched around? If you are a Lumberjack Goldfish and the enemy team last second switched to a Metagalleon, I imagine you don't want your Lumberjack anymore, because that Galleon has more than just a Lumberjack. Increase the lobby timer to 5min and start the lock ships but not guns after 4min and there is enough time for tactics. That doesn't prevent last second gun switches though, so there is that.

Regarding mid-match ammo and tool switches
It was easier back then when the match chat told everybody exactly who left the match and came back again, so nobody could sneak this kind of stuff past the ref. If it happens now, it should lead to instant disqualification. Encourage streamers to press 1, 2, 3 and 4 more often so they and the viewers can help with identifying mid-match tool switches and the refs shouldn't need to make screenshots in addition to everything else. If a stream has a co-caster, then this one can be tasked with trying to keep an eye out for these things, since the audience's camera usually isn't the same as the co-caster's. Casters can coordinate too, after all.

That's about as much input as I have.

Red-Xiii:

1.  I realize last second ship swap has been around forever.  That doesnt make it a proper way to play the game.  If this community was bigger and more popular this would be a non-issue because the masses would be complaining in droves and the rules would be forced to change.  I find the tactic detestable in general and just ruins this type of game that requires proper tactics and setup.  You pull a last second swap ship you throw your planned tactics out the window.  If the arguement is to take something safe to handle any situation you are saying we are pigeon-holed to only a few ships/loadouts and that is not fun for anyone over any length of time invested in the game.  My fix for it would be to do a pick system like they do in other Mobas, One pick at a time.  Determined by a coin flip or pre-determined ranking.  (have not thought this through)

2. Coin flip should not at all be integrated into something you worked hard for week after week and to be just decided by  chance.  In the history of gaming, you end up with a draw at the most.  Perma-hull percentage remaining or first kill if 0-0 after overtime expires.  No matter how long it takes.  You spend the whole time trying to out think, out smart, and out fly the opponent only to be deflated by a coin flip.  I haven't had the experience but I am very empathetic towards anyone who had to have that done.  I would not be happy and able to deal with that quietly.  I understand over time people wanted the match time reduced.  I get that.  However it shouldnt be reduced at the expense of the players.  Some captains play the long chess game.  Others are agressive/reactive.  You would be forcing us all to get aggressive or go home.  I don't agree with that. 

3.  Noone involved with each others clans/ships currently in game should be watching the stream.  Seeing as we all use some form of voice communication it's just a no brainer advantages could be taken especially on speed, distance, and location of enemy not to mention altitude and positioning.  Just shouldnt happen. 

4.  The only one of those bullet points I dont have issue with is in-game switching out loadouts.  I believe if a crew member forgot to get his proper tools or captain was busy talking to his crew and forgot tar he should be allowed to get it.  Those things impact the overall integrity of the game.  Do you really want to lose because the crew forgot to grab the right stuff?  That's no way to win a game.  If I beat someone, and I know they didn't have the proper team or crew tools or something went wrong, I don't take much pride in it.  I wouldnt in SCS either. 

Only my opinions for discussion purposes.

Huskarr:
Regarding midmatch loadout swaps:
As referee I would be ok with allowing midmatch swaps. At the moment controlling the loadouts of 16 people just creates a load of unnescessary work for the referee.
As a player it makes a huge difference if a player has loadout X or loadout Y. And it changes how I play. And to be honest the lobby game is just as important as the actual game.
Personaly I think that the refs just have to keep track of the 16 loadouts and coordinate with casters and co-casters. (And if you slept in lobby too bad.)

Listening to stream in match:
As referee I can not really and do not want to control this.
At the moment I think this problem is adequately addressed by the on minute delay on Lysanya's stream. And I think that we have to trust each other enough to not do this.

Regarding last second ship swaps


--- Quote from: Dementio on September 06, 2016, 12:10:34 pm ---There is no way to prevent it. You can only make it fairer by giving time to respond to it. Instead of locking ships, allow guns to be switched around? If you are a Lumberjack Goldfish and the enemy team last second switched to a Metagalleon, I imagine you don't want your Lumberjack anymore, because that Galleon has more than just a Lumberjack. Increase the lobby timer to 5min and start the lock ships but not guns after 4min and there is enough time for tactics. That doesn't prevent last second gun switches though, so there is that.

--- End quote ---
I'm with Daniel on this one and it allows for some damage control. So I think it is ok if we introduced this.

Coin flip:

I am really torn on this issue, because on the one hand we do not have infinite amounts of time (especially us damned Europeans who have to sleep :P).
But on the other hand coin flips are kinda stupid.
So I don't really have an opinion on this.  :-\

I hope my opinion is worth something.

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