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GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
NikolaiLev:
--- Quote from: Veyka on May 19, 2013, 04:36:26 pm ---I am well aware of power creep, but if we just have nerfs without other adjustments we are going to end up with a very narrow allotment of weapons which are viable (one might say we do already). Balance is understandably hard of cause.
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Well, then it's just a matter of nerfing the weapons that are too powerful. It can be easier to just buff what few weapons are too weak, but it highly depends. A lot of weapons can be overpowered because of a mechanic they have in common.
A big thing to consider is how long we want the average time-to-kill to be. Also relevant is how much skill investment should be needed to achieve that average time, as well as the general threshold for failure.
So we can't just nerf everything over and over, that'll result in the opposite of power creep (which is not named, because it almost Never Happens). A balance must be found. Hence, balance. :P
Morblitz:
--- Quote from: Ofiach on May 19, 2013, 02:06:28 pm ---Any gun that requires you to use 2 ships working perfectly together to effectively counter needs to be looked at.
As for trying to disable a lumberjack well that isn't a viable option against opponents who are awake. The Artemis isn't going to get the job done anymore, the only real disable would be 2 mercs cycling fire and not missing any shots. Now you have a ship that has to be completely dedicated to disabling a single gun. That really doesn't make sense to me from a balance standpoint.
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I get my lumberjack shot out all the time by mercs and artemis's and gats. It's really frustrating. The thing that lets me get it back up and viable again is great piloting by Squash, and accurate counter component breaking by someone on a merc, usually Applesauce but recently amazingly well done by Charon. Not to mention that the crew on the Dirty Duck are amazing at destroying guns with their own gatlings.
It's usually a team effort to get the Galleon firing at full strength.
What I'm saying is I play with one of the best teams in the game and I am continuously fucking frustrated with how often my lumberjack gets disabled :p usually while being charged by a ship, but sometimes by snipers (even in public games). I don't believe it needs an entire ship devoted to disabling it.
Ofiach:
One more question, what other gun can you miss half the clip and still achieve the guns primary function?
If half a gat clip misses, the armor is fine, if half a flak clip misses the perma hull is fine. etc etc etc.
Another little experience I had today was with a guy who has never shot the LumberJack before, didn't even have lesmok as an ammo type. He was sinking two enemy galleons permanently. Oh he was also tagging a moving squid. The second match he put lesmok in and laughed. We weren't fighting scrubs or noobies during these games either. The gun is just supremely forgiving, as long as the cap and gunner share the same language. Left, Rght, Up, Down, moving forward, moving backward. Proving a noobie could use the gun caused alot of people to just quit the match afterward.
You give me a weapon that can reliably disable a single gun from 3km and I won't have anything to complain about.
I know I'm harping on this but it seriously does need a look. Alot of guns need a second look IMO because any game where competitive play whittles the choices down to two or three weapons...... well that's a problem.
Also I like how you use the argument "you can't balance off of competitive play" but when that same argument was used for the artemis it was considered invalid.
Morblitz:
Shooting a squid with the lumberjack is really hard. How sure are you that he was new?
Ofiach:
I've been playing with him since he started just over a week ago, and he never does anything but beat on the hull. He missed 2 shots of 6 firing on the squid and with the help of a single merc shot put the squid to sleep. The second time around he hit all 6 and insta gibbed the squid.(I think the squid may have taken a little gat fire from a passing friendly) when he got lesmok rounds the second game it was over he was giggling like a school girl over chat.
@ Nikolai you're dead wrong about it ONLY being useful against balloons. The Lumber still does ~115 damage to hull armor for every hit goes through a dead balloon, and ~95 to permahull. Not to mention its aoe can hurt guns pretty well if the gunner misses a tad low of the balloon.
Now unless the newest numbers posted are completely wrong I think that math is spot on.
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