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Defining Roles for Each Ship - A Return to Our Roots

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Unarmed Civilian:
I ended up coming up with an idea for a change to charged in the incendiary thread, but it's very vague so I'll refine it here.

Make Charged Rounds the ammo type that trades damage per second (DPS) for damage per clip (DPC).

+30% damage
-30% rate of fire (from -25%)
No clip size penalty (from -20%)

This makes Charged Rounds the dedicated damage per clip ammo at the severe cost of damage per second.

On paper, this takes DPS down to 91% of normal rounds ((1-.30)*(1+.30)), so it's almost a whole 10% DPS loss. However, it is a guaranteed 30% DPC gain on every gun in the game, since there are no funny clip size changes to worry about. It also makes it very clear that there is going to be a LOT more damage per clip, but it is going to fire VERY slowly.

As an example, a normal gatling has 1086.5 DPC, while this charged gatling would have 1412.45 DPC. That is enough to break a galleon's hull in one clip, despite two whole mallets in between, but it'll take nearly 14 seconds of constant, uninterrupted fire to do that.

On guns that use Burst for a 5th shot (+20% DPC on H Flak and Artemis), Burst would still be a middle ground offering a balance between DPC and DPS, but Charged would be king of DPC without question.

This change would also cause a marginal nerf to the Mercury Field Gun and Charged H Carro. However, it is slight enough that a small tweak can be made to the field gun to balance it without making its other munitions drastically more powerful. H Carro is strong enough without it, and can eat another nerf after Loch Carro was buffed so hard.

Personally, I doubt this would make Charged overpowered, as people strongly favor DPS in the current setting for fast kills, but it will make it a more interesting ammunition to experiment with and open up new uses for it. See Hwacha. (vs hull: Burst DPC 948; Charged DPC 1027)

Atruejedi:

--- Quote from: Unarmed Civilian on November 04, 2016, 12:06:04 am ---[nerdy numbers]

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I love this idea. And I'd still use it in Mercs, because I'd have another gun with explosive damage waiting for that pretty-much-guaranteed-armor-strip to fire and do real damage. This rewards smart players, and I'm all about it!

Kestril:

--- Quote from: Atruejedi on October 28, 2016, 01:52:01 pm ---
#NerfGreased - Decrease Greased ammo range from 80% of Normal ammo's reach to 70%. "Set it and forget it" Greased ammo is extremely common in this game. Many players shove it in all guns and never bother swapping ammunition types for the rest of the game. This is boring and thoughtless. Players should be punished for not switching to Normal ammunition to gain that extra 30% in range. Greased should only be used when players know they're in range for it... they should have to consciously switch from Normal to Greased once they're confident they're in range. This adds depth and rewards thinking players.

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Dear god yes. Greased is way too prominent on nearly all guns. Hades: Greased, Flak: Greased, Gatling: greased. The ammo is too prominent and has become catch-all in it's role. Furthermore the gatling gun changes made buffed accuracy to the gatling gun removed heavy ammo from the meaningful choice.  I'd also go so far to say to increase the jitter and spread when greased is loaded to above the old gatling levels, while increasing the fire rate further. Make it the ammo you'd load eye-to-eye with the opponent, and nowhere else.


--- Quote ---#NerfBurst - Burst ammo already provides a large bonus to the "splash" of weapons with Area of Effect damage; the increased clip size makes this ammo a "why use anything else?" choice  in weapons like the Hwacha and Artemis. Like Greased, this "set it and forget it" mentality is boring, thoughtless, and lacks tactical depth and choice. With a nerf to Burst, Greased ammunition would be more common in the Artemis at close range and Heavy Clip would be more attractive as an initial-engagement Hwacha ammo choice. Let's reward smart players.

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What nerfs? I'm trying to think of how to nerf burst ammo without crippling the hwacha and artimis. However, the argument could be made that those guns are too prominent as it is.  I think reducing the increased clip size would be a start. 


--- Quote ---#RestoreLoch - Restore Lochnager ammo to its former niche glory. One of the greatest feelings in the game was (was  :-[ ) waiting for the enemy's armor to drop and nuking an enemy with a shot from the (old) Heavy Flak. While changes to the Heavy Flak were wise to make it more accessible and newb-friendly, this feeling of absolute power and awe is gone and that is truly a shame. While I'll address the Old and New Heavy Flak in a moment, think of Loch as that special, skillful ammo for heavy guns or weapons with smaller clips.

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Yes please. There were few things more rewarding than pulling off a loched-n'-loaded heavy flak. This was the high-risk heavy gun ammo. It's niche was secure and it was rewarding and required teamwork to use. Why muse changed it is a real head-scratcher for me.



--- Quote ---#ChangeCharged - What's the point of this ammo? Some people occasionally use it in the Heavy Flak, Lumberjack, Mine Launcher, and Heavy Carronade... and that's still not exactly common. The only "yes, use Charged!" gun in the game is the Mercury, and even the Mercury has viable alternatives with Lesmok and Heatsink. Charged needs a complete overhaul. Muse should have left Loch alone and should instead #ChangeCharged ammo to perform and act somewhat like Lochnager currently does. Think of Charged as the Loch for lighter weapons or those with larger clips. Less special, less skillful, but still fun and unique.

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Again, I agree. Charge needs a distinct role. Turning charged into the current low-damage loch would provide some more loadout choice and give charged a niche role. Furthermore, combined it with the suggested changes I mentioned above to greased ammo and you've got a real nice tactical choice on your hands.


--- Quote ---#HowAboutAHowitzer - I mentioned I miss the old Heavy Flak, especially when coupled with the old Lochnager ammo. So let's recreate that fabled weapon and call it something new. I've proposed this to Muse many times and they've admitted it would be easy, yet they won't do it because of vanity. I've asked them to add a "new" gun to the game: the old Heavy Flak. Give it the same exact stats of as the Old Heavy Flak, but, to save artistic resources, simply retexture it with modified textures that are tinted an obviously different color from the "real" Heavy Flak. I'm partial to gold or copper or a nice Statue of Liberty green myself. 8) Call it a Howitzer or something and be done with it. Variety is the spice of life, and this would be so easy to implement.

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I miss a potential 1hit K-O heavy gun as well. Still, unlike the other changes proposed, I think there is good reason muse made this change. Both to lower the skill floor needed for heavy flak, and to increase killtimes to give crews a chance to react.

Still, a very immobile, 1-shot nearly "fixed" heavy weapon could have a place in game. New heavy guns are sorely needed to skirmish as it is. I'd recommend this be a "heavy mercury" and deal piercing damage. 1 shot with a fairly long reload that does ~475 armor damage with no projectile expansion.


An ammo update for skirmish is sorely needed at this point, as ammo roles overlap and there is very little tactical choice in ammo selection.


I'd like to add that adding ammunition types that reduce the damage overall, but change the secondary or primary damage type would be a way to make the gunner class almost as useful as engineers. (I.E. High explosive rounds change the secondary damage type to explosive, but reduce the main damage type by 75%), but I'll probably write that up in another suggestion post. 

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