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Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
BlackenedPies:
--- Quote from: Richard LeMoon on March 03, 2016, 12:41:30 am ---And every time, you have been wrong.
The recoil nerf on heavy clip was one-half of the suggestion I made right before they started testing it at my strong suggestion. The other half was adding a stamina recoil reduction of an amount that would put Heavy clip plus Gunner stamina at close to 100% recoil reduction. It would have been a partial nerf that could be temporarily compensated for by a gunner. Someone decided to reduce the spread on hwacha all the time instead, and broke it.
So what if the recoil reduction is useless on some guns? Breaking arc is useless on most builds and completely useless on some guns. Reloading faster is completely useless on most guns. Both of those are powerful on other guns. Your point is null.
--- End quote ---
HOLD ON
Faster reload and better arcs benefit EVERY gun. Some guns benefit MORE from a faster reload and one gun benefits a TON (mine launcher) but no gun doesn't benefit from a faster reload
Same with arcs. All guns benefit from better arcs. Some guns benefit less (merc) but there's been plenty of times where I was out of merc arcs just to get hit by a merc! There's no gun that doesn't benefit from better arcs
Most guns don't benefit from reduced recoil. There's a few that it would have a minor effect on (gat, carro, taur), but only one where it would have a major effect on...
Say it gave -30% jitter to compensate with heavy clip. Congrats the hwatcha is broken
MightyKeb:
--- Quote from: BlackenedPies on March 03, 2016, 06:25:27 am ---
--- Quote from: Richard LeMoon on March 03, 2016, 12:41:30 am ---And every time, you have been wrong.
The recoil nerf on heavy clip was one-half of the suggestion I made right before they started testing it at my strong suggestion. The other half was adding a stamina recoil reduction of an amount that would put Heavy clip plus Gunner stamina at close to 100% recoil reduction. It would have been a partial nerf that could be temporarily compensated for by a gunner. Someone decided to reduce the spread on hwacha all the time instead, and broke it.
So what if the recoil reduction is useless on some guns? Breaking arc is useless on most builds and completely useless on some guns. Reloading faster is completely useless on most guns. Both of those are powerful on other guns. Your point is null.
--- End quote ---
HOLD ON
Faster reload and better arcs benefit EVERY gun. Some guns benefit MORE from a faster reload and one gun benefits a TON (mine launcher) but no gun doesn't benefit from a faster reload
Same with arcs. All guns benefit from better arcs. Some guns benefit less (merc) but there's been plenty of times where I was out of merc arcs just to get hit by a merc! There's no gun that doesn't benefit from better arcs
Most guns don't benefit from reduced recoil. There's a few that it would have a minor effect on (gat, carro, taur), but only one where it would have a major effect on...
Say it gave -30% jitter to compensate with heavy clip. Congrats the hwatcha is broken again
--- End quote ---
If gunner stamina's effects benefit every gun, then that is an even better reason to swap them around. The reason devs haven't touched the gun buffs' damage boost yet is because almost any other mechanic would benefit some guns more than others, whilst 20% damage increase across the board is fairly universal. So if we have 2 universal features, and one is catered more towards dealing damage and benefitting from shooting a gun more than the other person rather than benefitting more from recovering when things go wrong in specific situations (gunner stamina atm) then I would say the former fits the gunner more, especially considering pretty much everything an engineer does on a ship involves making it recover from a non ideal situation.
How would hwacha be broken, if it was returned from it's pre buff state and this mechanic was applied in combination with Heavy Clip? Unless you're implying current hwacha jitter + -100% jitter, in which case yes, that is broken, but that's not what Richard wants to imply, unless you think that the old Hwacha was broken aswell, which is an interesting if not a debatable opinion.
BlackenedPies:
If hwatcha was reverted then this -30% jitter reduction would turn it back into the current hwatcha. It wouldn't be used with heavy clip and instead would mostly be used in conjunction with dps ammos like greased and charged (and burst). Reducing gat or carro jitter by 30% isn't a big change but it's a powerful buff to hwatcha and only hwatcha
Mean Machine:
--- Quote from: Richard LeMoon on March 01, 2016, 07:56:04 pm ---
These make sense from a mechanical point of view. Unless you are taking individual bullets apart, no mechanical change should increase the damage of the ammo. However, adjusting stops can increase arcs. Tuning mechanics can make things turn and load faster. Tightening loose bolts can make it hold together longer under stress.
Gunner Focus would:
1. Increase damage.
--- End quote ---
I'm a bit confused here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you say it doesn't make sense that buff would increase weapon (ammo) damage, but on the other hand it makes sense that "gunner focus" would increase damage? Why? How would someone who is mentally focused on shooting a gun able to inflict more damage? Gun does or should do same damage no matter if guy shooting is fully concentrated or drunk. As long as he hits the target it should do the same damage.
Some of your suggestions are not bad, but I'm not sure the changes are really needed. This whole idea that gunner is underpowered seems it's just matter of opinion and some say it is underpowered and others it's not. I personally think gunners are fine. They are relevant and good enough to have one on almost every ship, which seems perfectly fine for me. Unless you're wishing for 2x gunner + 1x engineer combo to be ideal.
It's really just a matter of preferences, each class has it's own strengths. Engineers won't be able to reload faster and get extra arcs and ammo types, while gunners won't carry buff kits or whatever seems to be a problem for people here. So it's matter of preference like I said, you decide what "bonuses" you would like for each ship or match. Some people will prefer buffed guns, while other will prefer benefits of gunner over buffer. Which makes sense to me. But maybe It's just that I'm not concerned about things making sense on a realistic level, like for example why can gunners turn guns out of arcs or why can pilots turn ship faster using their muscles. As long as gameplay is fun and balanced (which I think it is if we're talking about gunners) it's good for me. I can see why some people would be bothered by such things, but certainly not in this game. It's a pvp game about shooting airships for flaks sake.
BlackenedPies:
--- Quote from: Richard LeMoon on March 01, 2016, 07:56:04 pm ---Buffed guns would:
1. Have improved arcs.
2, Reload faster.
3. Move faster.
4. Perhaps have more health.
Gunner Focus would:
1. Increase damage.
2. Reduce recoil.
3. Give the gunner a 'tunnel vision' visual effect, slightly zoomed in with a dark haze around the edges
4. Possibly muffle all other game sounds.
--- End quote ---
Here's the issue: buffs are permanent while stamina is temporary. This would benefit buff engi much more than gunner. Their guns would turn faster, have better arcs, and higher dps from the reload bonus. In order for gunner to compete they'd need a sizable damage boost, but this isn't balanced because gunner stamina is temporary
Take the gat for example. It has a long empty clip time so you'd need to use a lot of stamina. The hwatcha however has a short empty time which means you'd only use it for a few seconds. Or the mine launcher where you'd use stamina for just a single instant
The current system works because turn speed, arcs, and reload are good temporary utility bonuses while damage is a simple permanent bonus. The gunner is for utility and gunner stamina reflects that. If +20% dmg is too much then the answer is to adjust it - not change everything else
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