Info > Feedback and Suggestions
Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
The Djinn:
--- Quote from: Richard LeMoon on March 01, 2016, 07:56:04 pm ---My suggestion to Muse was swapping Buff hammer and Gunner Stamina. After reading a lot of the ideas here, my thought is this (copied from the email I sent them):
"OK, so, you know I am not a big fan of 'stamina', especially on the gunner (pilot is a close second). As you may know, there is one thing I dislike even more than gunner stamina, that being the effect of the buff hammer on guns. We all know this breaks the balance between gunners and engineer with a buff. There are very few cases where a really good gunner is more valuable than a really good buffgineer. In addition, you have to practice quite a big to be an efficient buffgineer. This makes it inherently unfriendly to newer players.
Then we have stamina, which is trying to bring gunners back to a valid choice, mostly because of the buff hammer.
I feel this solution is ignoring the original problem, and would like to make a suggestion to overhaul both buff and gunner stamina. while making both more fun and relevant.
The suggestion is basically this: Switch the effect of the buff hammer and gunner stamina completely. Rename 'Stamina' to 'Focus'. The new effects would be as follows.
Buffed guns would:
1. Have improved arcs.
2, Reload faster.
3. Move faster.
4. Perhaps have more health.
These make sense from a mechanical point of view. Unless you are taking individual bullets apart, no mechanical change should increase the damage of the ammo. However, adjusting stops can increase arcs. Tuning mechanics can make things turn and load faster. Tightening loose bolts can make it hold together longer under stress.
Gunner Focus would:
1. Increase damage.
2. Reduce recoil.
3. Give the gunner a 'tunnel vision' visual effect, slightly zoomed in with a dark haze around the edges
4. Possibly muffle all other game sounds.
[[To add to that email, and taking from this thread, I would increase the repair power gunners have on guns with all tools.]]
These are very common aspects of most shooters. 'Holding breath' is a common way to reduce recoil and gain focus on a target. Gaining focus generally comes with some sort of zoom and tunnel vision, along with bonus damage due to the extra concentration put into hitting the target just right (supposedly). All these effects would make a great deal of sense to new (and old) players. There is an instant "Oh, I get what this does." familiar feel to the 'holding breath to focus' mechanic. Stamina is for running. Focus is for shooting. It is not intuitive for your guns to be briefly moved out of arc or load faster just because you push a button.
These changes would shift classes back where they belong, with gunners ruling the guns, and engineers making everything work better while running around like insane people."
Finally, to top off the "Gunner OP" shift, add in four new ammos:
1. Gibble mount - Shifts gun arcs to the left. Could be several ammos that shift 5-10-15 degrees left at the cost of 5-10-15% ammo.
2. Hook mount - Shifts gun arcs to the right. Could be several ammos that shift 5-10-15 degrees right at the cost of 5-10-15% ammo.
3. Airburst - Shift gun arcs up substantially, removes most arming time, cuts clip size, increases burst radius.
4. Depth charge - Shift gun arcs down substantially. Have not done the math on this to figure out balance, but it would need a substantial debuff.
--- End quote ---
...this is fantastic.
Daft Loon:
note - written before the previous 3 comments
I'm starting to like the idea of a single crew class if its structured that way, I can't off the top of my head think of any one 'superior' setup that would kill the variety it would open up. I would even be tempted to bring Spanner-Mallet-Chem-Extinguisher sometimes. I would want to see having a spanner or wrench be a mandatory minimum for crew, a loch-incendiary-burst-charged 'crew member' would be infuriating to say the least.
Either way IMO the current gunners state is mostly tied into the underlying structure of how ammunition works, with each ammo type having the same numerical effects on all guns (rounding aside) leading to changes in effectiveness that are all over the place and only a few guns that benefit from 3 or more ammo types. I would rather see each ammo have a theme - long run dps, increased effective range, bonus fire stacks etc - and unique effects for each gun that fit the theme and are balanced for that gun. It could be cut back to just 5 ammo types even and offer more choices than the current 8.
Kingsania:
--- Quote from: Richard LeMoon on March 01, 2016, 07:56:04 pm ---Buffed guns would:
1. Have improved arcs.
2, Reload faster.
3. Move faster.
4. Perhaps have more health.
--- End quote ---
I just looked up the buff hammer and found that with the exception of the balloon it buffs exactly one attribute from each part (engines +25% thrust, hull 30% hp, balloon -25% vertical drag +100% lift) And you want to change at least THREE attributes because you don't like guns get damage increase since the bullets themselves aren't affected? I feel as this would make buff hammer a must have on all ships as it'd make gunning so much better. I would strongly suggest just sticking with the improved arcs for guns if you really must get rid of damage increase.
--- Quote ---Gunner Focus would:
1. Increase damage.
2. Reduce recoil.
3. Give the gunner a 'tunnel vision' visual effect, slightly zoomed in with a dark haze around the edges
4. Possibly muffle all other game sounds.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---1. Increase damage.
--- End quote ---
You are unhappy that a hammer improves each bullet's damage output and instead would be happier if it was from a gunner squinting? This is just wrong. I can see how most of the points in your post would be viable, except for this. Now I did read your justification for it and can understand why you'd say because it's in other shooter games, it'd be nice to have here. The issue is that those other games you're referencing probably don't crew operated mechanical warmachines, just organic warmachines. Rewarding extra damage for accurate hits is not a valid reason, mainly because we already reward players for accurate hits. You get that reward when you use a mercury, artemis, even a flare gun, you get to greatly damage maybe even break the part that you directly hit.
For focus, I would be behind point 3 and 4 being included but reducing recoil would effectively negate heavy clip. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't, you didn't suggest how much recoil reduction so I don't know. What would be a viable replacement is the 'Move Faster' from the buff section. This is easily justified as the gunner simply throwing his/her body weight around to move the gun, obviously you can't do that all the time. Reload speed could be justified this way too, having the gunner shove the automatic parts along to go faster.
With those changes I'd see the buff and focus being more viable.
BlackenedPies:
Reduced gun recoil cannot be an attribute of anything except ammo. Doing so would break balance. If gunner stamina reduced recoil it would make burst hwatcha broken while having no effect on the lumberjack. It would make little or no difference on most guns but have a powerful effect on others. Like I point out every time it's brought up Richard, this isn't an option
Richard LeMoon:
And every time, you have been wrong.
The recoil nerf on heavy clip was one-half of the suggestion I made right before they started testing it at my strong suggestion. The other half was adding a stamina recoil reduction of an amount that would put Heavy clip plus Gunner stamina at close to 100% recoil reduction. It would have been a partial nerf that could be temporarily compensated for by a gunner. Someone decided to reduce the spread on hwacha all the time instead, and broke it.
So what if the recoil reduction is useless on some guns? Breaking arc is useless on most builds and completely useless on some guns. Reloading faster is completely useless on most guns. Both of those are powerful on other guns. Your point is null.
Kingsania... where to start, besides pointing out that you are wrong about everything.
--- Quote ---
I just looked up the buff hammer and found that with the exception of the balloon it buffs exactly one attribute from each part (engines +25% thrust, hull 30% hp, balloon -25% vertical drag +100% lift) And you want to change at least THREE attributes because you don't like guns get damage increase since the bullets themselves aren't affected?
--- End quote ---
Let me explain something about the components you just described. Engines only do one mechanical thing, thus can only have one attribute buffed. Balloon does two distinct forms of movement, so can only have two attributes effected. Armor only does one thing, again, only one attribute can be changed. Guns, on the other hand, have many mechanical attributes. Almost all of which are effected by a magical stamina.
--- Quote ---I feel as this would make buff hammer a must have on all ships as it'd make gunning so much better.
--- End quote ---
I feel you have not played the game much. If you did, you would know that the best crews always take a buff kit, and sometimes two, forgoing fire tools. They are already required for the damage because the ALREADY make gunning so much better. For an ENGINEER. This change would make buffing better for the gunner, as it should be.
--- Quote ---I would strongly suggest just sticking with the improved arcs for guns if you really must get rid of damage increase.
--- End quote ---
Why? Your reasoning is wrong.
--- Quote ---You are unhappy that a hammer improves each bullet's damage output and instead would be happier if it was from a gunner squinting? This is just wrong.
--- End quote ---
You obviously know nothing about shooting guns or any task that requires extreme focus. 'Squinting'? Honestly, do some research. Tunnel vision does not come from squinting. It comes from having your eyes wide open while focusing intensely on a single task. Your brain literally blocks everything else out. All information deemed unneeded for the task is discarded. Time can even seem to slow down due to the reduced processing load.
--- Quote ---The issue is that those other games you're referencing probably don't crew operated mechanical warmachines, just organic warmachines
--- End quote ---
.
Aside from having no idea what you are referencing, there is no difference. Racing a motorcycle and racing a horse take the same kinds of extra focus.
--- Quote ---Rewarding extra damage for accurate hits is not a valid reason, mainly because we already reward players for accurate hits.
--- End quote ---
Reward? This is a mechanic that would replace the random weird effect of current stamina with things that actually make sense to a career gunner. It is not a reward. You could just as well make the same silly argument with why reward Engineers with the ability to run fast when all players can run fast? A person more familiar with guns is simply going to be able to inflict more damage with them. That is NOT THE CASE NOW. An engineer with a buff hammer can deal far more damage, despite being the class that is supposedly a career mechanic. Put an engineer and a gunner on a gun, and there is no difference in damage output. That is what is wrong. That is what this fixes.
--- Quote ---For focus, I would be behind point 3 and 4 being included but reducing recoil would effectively negate heavy clip. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't,
--- End quote ---
It would't. See first paragraph.
--- Quote ---What would be a viable replacement is the 'Move Faster' from the buff section. This is easily justified as the gunner simply throwing his/her body weight around to move the gun, obviously you can't do that all the time.
--- End quote ---
Trying hard to stay nice... but you do realize this is already part of gunner stamina, and really stupid? The light guns, maybe. The heavy guns are mechanically driven machines that your character SITS on. Let that sink in.
--- Quote ---Reload speed could be justified this way too, having the gunner shove the automatic parts along to go faster.
--- End quote ---
Yup. He can shove his fingers into the mechanical gears WHILE throwing his weight around on Buick-sized mounted guns.
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