Author Topic: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...  (Read 171206 times)

Offline Jamini

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #180 on: March 08, 2016, 10:50:24 am »
I won't contradict your numbers or reasoning. I can understand being tired, and it can be very frustrating dealing with some people. Especially when having voice chat disabled turns it off completely. (This is actually a problem and potential bug)

That said, if you want a team that works as a well-oiled machine the simplest solution is to grab some friends to fill half a lobby. I do that a lot, actually, even if my own friends are basically novices/low-mid level. (All of us picked up GoI after a long break on a whim, and we're having a blast!) The means and place to get that sort of play that you and Jazzhands seek (which isn't always, I understand that. Sometimes you want to just play, other times you want to teach, and sometimes you want to screw around.) already exists and is working perfectly fine. Punishing a novice player that might want to try a spire or mobula just isn't the right way to do it.

Offline Schwalbe

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #181 on: March 08, 2016, 11:05:34 am »
MMmmmm. That's not exactly what I meant.

Ceresbane always goes meta, always goes for the fucking win.

And I mostly play to have fun. Sometimes my fun is being challenged to kick some veteran-tier captain's ass, sometimes it's going mobula with mine launchers, aiming behind the enemy, then ramming the everliving shit out of him. Sometimes it's going full-retarded.


I understand your point, the problem is, that those ship are difficult to handle (spire) or have specific crew management requiring a little different approach (mobula), and in this game if one gear in a machine screws up - everyone is dead. And I wish it was an exaggeration. Just like I wished that most of novice pilots are keen to listen instead of DEEEEEEERPING and using their brains. ^^ I mean, in literally 3 months I've seen only ONE newish pilot to hear me out and not go full-retard, I-I-I mean full-forward towards enemy, getting killed in 20 seconds. And I'm not talking from co-pilot standpoint, but just general.

I'm not trying to convince you, just continuing explanation based on experience WHY some people see restrictions as a good idea.

And yes. I do fly with a group of friends. ^^ We have a blast, usually. ^^
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 11:07:10 am by Schwalbe »

Offline Kamoba

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #182 on: March 08, 2016, 11:20:38 am »
To be fair you're both wrong and both right. It depends on if you're learning through trial and error (Jaminis point.) Or if you're end game competitive ship building (Jazzhands)

It depends on the context, and since the balance changes started it's encouraged newbies learn through trial and error as more guides become outdated and more videos become out dated...

Why would a game with an novice in it as a captain be playing in an end-game competitive match?

Winning or losing in normal deathmatch/cp games is pointless. Who cares if you lose? Have fun with it, learn, get better, and work out interesting strategies. Bring in old friends, make new friends, and help others learn. That doesn't mean don't try, but it does mean that we should step outside our box and screw around.

Also, just because someone is new and unfamilier with the game does not mean they are stupid. I actively seek novices to run and captain my ships, and the vast majority of them (about the same ratio of experienced players) are earnest, well-meaning, and pretty damn eager to learn. Just because someone is not experienced or good yet does not make them stupid, or even a deadweight on the team. It is far more effective to explain patiently to a new player how and why certain setups/ammo work, than it is to try and blanket-ban them from a full third of the game until they "prove themselves"

Okay so things are escalating here quite quickly and I'll just address the bits directed to me...

Firstly when I said trial and error vs end game, I was not intending it to sound so "black and white" nor to be so literal, my point was that people learn in different ways and the "end game" should more be read as "effective meta" I guess..
I have met and know many who started the game with a competitive goal, to win, it comes with the PvP nature of the game and they often go on to join teams.. They read the guides read weapon descriptions and aim at making effective over experimental ship/tool builds as opposed to those who experiment with any combination just to see what "feels right" or is fun, they can be found in high levels and low level novice matches alike..

Also I am not intending to say novice players are stupid, there are stupid and intelligent players at all levels..

Side note to all: how about we all calm and chill. After all we're all on the same boat, trying to find a way to make the game fun.

Offline Jamini

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #183 on: March 08, 2016, 11:25:53 am »
Side note to all: how about we all calm and chill. After all we're all on the same boat, trying to find a way to make the game fun.

I apologize, I got a bit heated. It was wrong to be so abrasive.

I'm fairly well known (and teased) with my friends for constantly advocating for new players/first time players in other games. It heavily bothers me when I see anyone advocating ideas that can shut new players out or turn them off from something they enjoy.

I do still feel the tools already exist to avoid novice captains if one wants too. Vet games, comp games, and premades all exist already. Rather than adding more arbitrary barriers (which is a huge turn off for many people) I would prefer people focus on using the tools that already to exist to improve their experience.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #184 on: March 08, 2016, 11:39:25 am »
Haha, no worries, that's the good (and bad) thing about forums, the passion they harbour! :)

I agree, Novices can be avoided with effort but equally they can ruin someone's idea of "fun" even if they didn't intend to.. That's life though :)

Ultimately I very much doubt Muse would consider this idea anyhow, they didn't allow a kick feature and this is sort of like a specific work around to how a kick feature might be used..

So I think this is just a "vets vent idea" that'll prove to amount to nothing except more forum posts :)

Offline Hoja Lateralus

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #185 on: March 08, 2016, 03:10:33 pm »
I do still feel the tools already exist to avoid novice captains if one wants too. Vet games, comp games, and premades all exist already. Rather than adding more arbitrary barriers (which is a huge turn off for many people) I would prefer people focus on using the tools that already to exist to improve their experience.

Well, vet games happen very rarely, so it isn't of much use. I have the opposite impression - that noobs re everywhere, you can't run away from there. Quoting 40k codex: "They are coming to get us. Body, mind and soul."
Also in normal game a player having 1000-ish hours wouldn't be matched up with the one who has 100 hours. But GOIO isn't a normal game - it's a mess. And with 500ish (tops!) players online there is only so much you can do. I can't even imagine playing not in prime time.
I hope I'm wrong, but I think you're just an idealist who still has strenght to deal with that shit. From my experience everyone breaks sooner or later, in one way or another. Take for instance nanoduckling who devoted whole clan to teaching new players and he got discouraged pretty fast (God knows he tried).
In order to have 'fun' games vets can't play with noobs/novice players. It's not fun for new players who are scared and on position of an underdog and it's not fun for vets, because they either stomp the shit out of them and win 5-0 in matter of minutes or they try to find a way to limit themselves to try to give novice a chance. The second option can be fun once in a while, but not every match. Fun match is when you give your 100%, enemies give their 100% and it ends up in a close 4-5. So I'd say it's the opposite of what you say - vets can't play with themselves in peace and novice can't play with themselves in peace.

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #186 on: March 08, 2016, 03:34:46 pm »
Oh right. Back on topic.

Not sure if my opinion is different now than before but i kinda disagree with the idea. I have been watching / playing with some awesome (relatively) novice pilots this week.



Offline nanoduckling

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #187 on: March 09, 2016, 09:13:03 am »
So long as it can be turned off or circumvented I'm fine with it. I admire Jamini's goals, but I do think he is living in a Rousseauian fantasy. True, most people aren't intentionally malicious, but a majority are very good at rationalizing their crappy behaviour and many are too stupid to recognize the ways they are stupid. This applies to novices in video games just as much as it does elsewhere.

There is nothing to be done with asshats and trolls, they will ruin your day whatever technical approaches you take (although I do wish Muse was a bit more aggressive with the ban-hammer). The problem is novices have no idea about what being a pilot means. The game doesn't warn them that taking the pilot slot without knowing what you are doing is a dick move. They aren't informed what the normal responsibilities of taking that slot are. It isn't shocking they don't live up to those responsibilities.

In my ideal world we would have various warning that would pop up that you could disable alerting novices when they are about to be an ass. The loadout recommendation screen should tell you that you are expected to accept the loadout. The equipment selection screen should warn you if you try to take anything other than a spy-glass as a crew member. Similarly for gunner and anything other than taking a spanner or wrench. It should warn you if you try to take lochnager as an engineer. It should warn you if you build one of the common questionable builds (all explosive damage or a flak fish). It should warn them that the harpoon is broken. And it should warn you if you click that pilots wheel.

At the moment Muse are de facto asking vet players to do things the game could very easily automated because the game provides novices with close to zero information. Worse the game doesn't create a culture of informed responsibility for novices. You wouldn't captain a football team when you don't understand the offside rule because everyone would call you an arrogant ass. Yet because novices are uninformed and lazy (you know, because they are human) they frequently take on the responsibilities of the captains chair.

I'd emphasize something about Mr.Disasters comments regarding my novice clan efforts. While it was sucking the fun out of the game for me, this wasn't what caused the failure of that project. Ultimately I believe the reason that project failed was because I identified a niche that didn't exist. Good novices were getting gobbled up by the existing clans and nurtured. I built something specifically designed to do what other clans were already effectively doing. And they were offering other things as well like a sense of community and an ethos beyond "don't be an ass". I'm not saying that the way the community interfaces with novices is perfect, but I will say that it is sufficiently the good that polite, responsive novices have many, many options and didn't need another one.

It is the novices that cannot reason out their responsibilities that need help, and since most humans are pretty crappy that is the majority of new players. Most aren't assholes. Most also don't think about if their actions harm others. Of course if they didn't understand their responsibilities they weren't eligible for the clan I created making it useless to them. I don't know what, if anything, the community can do to address this problem without more support from Muse.

That's why I want  this feature and I'd prefer it be possible to disable it. For me this is about ingraining a culture among novices that the pilot slot carries with it certain responsibilities. It isn't about restricting novices choices, it is about getting them to think before they play out their naive sky captain fantasies at everyone else's expense.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #188 on: March 09, 2016, 10:23:29 am »
Nano to the point and detailed, I don't disagree, but I will point out why I think an automated system may not work too well, using an ingame comparison we already have...

New players start new games on different frames of mind which can be grouped into three seperate categories...

The casuals (I started as this breed.)
Buying the game off sale or on sale purely based on when they come across it and liking the look of the game, the casual joins often with the "just here to have fun" motto, not putting too much effort into reading guides or other community provides information and sticking to default loadouts (which when I started were pretty crap considering flamer was OP and no default had chem.) While playing without organisation or much awareness, as crew The Casual may be pretty effective at keeping a ship alive, but more often than not there is not enough shooting being done to snag a win. A casual pilot often being the kind of person who communicates with their ally a bit but easily gets side tracked "omg a snowman! Let's look for more!" Even in the middle of a fire fight, casuals often learn after a few games and once they meet someone they get on well with, or someone they decide they have to beat, will start researching or join a group of other casuals in increasing effectiveness and happiness.

The "Try Hards" joining the game often because it is Player vs Player, the Try Hards often come with a competitive edge, reading before they buy, knowing the game basics before they do the tutorials, and often joining with a group of friends who also do the same, they come across as silent in game, mostly because they're linked on Skype or a VOIP to communicate, often leaving them unable to comm with take pilots. These are often the ones who integrate into the community or stick to their small group until they have gotten their money's worth of the game.

The "PITA. (Pains in the Arse.)" very often these are the people who purchase on a sale, they follow the big YouTuber names and snatch up games from sales often, these "PITA" are often the trouble makers for a variety of reasons and could easily earn sub categories on their own such as Trolls, Swearers and Ignorers and more..  The PITA are typically the bulk of new players, not all are Pains on purpose or with intent, but their lack of communication or team orientation often makes them more a nuisance than they may intend to be...
And it is the PITA category I want to focus on..

When new players join Guns they're given the option to play through the tutorials and then to join "Novice" matches, and many PITA will take offence to the Novice title, a fine example is the recent (and largely hated by fans and non-fans alike) JonTron video, in which he actually points out the Novice tag and says "This is here to say I suck and show everyone else I suck."
It is this mentality, this taking offence to a Word not intended to offend, which makes creating in game systems to teach and help new players hard..
The simple taking offence to being referred to as a Novice is why many Novice players opt out of Novice.. "I'm no skrub! I 360noscope in COD and CSGO Yo! Imma Boss!" Or "Well I read about the game, we all have access to the same stuff so how bad can it be? This Novice thing is pointless!"

So let's assume all the warnings and pop ups are added, it is more likely to offend the bulk of new players (PITA) than help them teach, and since so many of them take offence to just the word Novice, imagine the rage if they were reminded every ship until level X "Hey, you sure you want to pilot? You're still pretty new.."

That took longer to write up than I thought it would.. Hopefully it gets to the point though...

Many players take offence to being called a Novice or suggested to do the tutorials because they think Vets can carry them or don't realise how big an impact their actions on a ship, whatever the role will make...

Offline nanoduckling

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #189 on: March 09, 2016, 10:55:29 am »
I think you have identified an important point Kam, such a system needs to inform without patronizing, which I will admit is a difficult task.

Some things would be easy to do without being patronizing though. A screen which pops up when you select an inappropriate tool and tells you "Lochnager ammo breaks guns when it is fired, as such it is largely useless for engineers [Disable this message in future X]" or "The harpoon is currently a weapon in progress, and is not combat effective. We are testing ways to improve it in the Dev App [Disable this message in future X]" shouldn't offend anyone bar the completely insane.

Others are admittedly harder, but even an offensive message which has the player think about their responsibilities to others might be better than what we have now. Certainly I feel there are little things that could be done easily, and bigger things that might be harder to do that might be worthwhile.

Offline Jamini

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #190 on: March 10, 2016, 12:22:45 pm »
I'm starting to think that we might need some actual metrics here, as opposed to assumptions. I've been guilty, as have several other posters here, of making statements of fact without evidence to back it up. Which is problematic, especially when I see comments made like this:

Quote
The "PITA. (Pains in the Arse.)" very often these are the people who purchase on a sale, they follow the big YouTuber names and snatch up games from sales often, these "PITA" are often the trouble makers for a variety of reasons and could easily earn sub categories on their own such as Trolls, Swearers and Ignorers and more..  The PITA are typically the bulk of new players, not all are Pains on purpose or with intent, but their lack of communication or team orientation often makes them more a nuisance than they may intend to be...

I've found this to be fairly patently untrue. The bulk of the people I personally end up blocking for obnoxious mic spam are not novices, but rather tend to fall in the level 15-30 range on their main role. (Or are insufferable 45's who assume that anyone who isn't max-level doesn't understand anything about the game at all. Which is frankly, just as bad.)

Do obnoxious spammers exist? Of course. That doesn't make the bulk of novices into them. Not by a long shot.

I'll take some notes tonight on who I fly with and post results. I have a gut feeling that the result will show far fewer issue-players than assumed. Remember: Humans have a perceptive bias towards the negative. We don't remember positive experiences as well as negative ones.

---

That said, having a one-time popout tooltip(with an option to disable it) for each tool that you can select that comes up when a player picks it would be useful. Allow people to opt-out, but provide a way for sincere new players to learn the basics.

For example, when first selecting greased ammo:

"Greased ammo reduces the range and damage of your shot, but dramatically improves the clip and refire rate of your gun. It's best to use on weapons with a large clipsize and low range, like gatlings and morters, but not very good with long-range and low-clip guns. Grease ammo is very popular for engineers to take due to its versatility."

Or on the pipe wrench,

"The pipe wrench is a jack-of-all-trades repair tool. It doesn't excel at rebuilding or repairing, but it is acceptable at both. The pipe wrench is favored by pilots, gunners, and buff-hammer engineers because of this."
« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 12:38:34 pm by Jamini »

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #191 on: March 10, 2016, 01:03:16 pm »
What your suggesting already exists.

Each ammo and tool have a description.

Offline Jamini

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #192 on: March 10, 2016, 01:16:49 pm »
What your suggesting already exists.

Each ammo and tool have a description.

Brief tooltip descriptions and pop-ups that you need to click "okay" on are very different things. Especially as the current tooltips are kind of bare for easily-digestible help, or explanations of where something is normally used.

Explaining that heavy clip reduces jitter by 70% means nothing to a new player. Explaining that it makes Hwacha rockets much more accurate and tightens carronade shots so that they can be used more effectivly at medium range DOES.

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #193 on: March 10, 2016, 04:39:19 pm »
I disagree with the idea of additional explanations in the form of a pop up. I would agree to an easily identifiable and navigable terms section. Or for the word "jitter" to be a clickable or scroll over(able) object that explains what it means.

Pop-ups are aggravating to me. My opinion is biased. I do not like pop ups. It is probably a deep rooted hatred from my early days of internet browsing.

Offline Jamini

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #194 on: March 10, 2016, 04:43:13 pm »
I disagree with the idea of additional explanations in the form of a pop up. I would agree to an easily identifiable and navigable terms section. Or for the word "jitter" to be a clickable or scroll over(able) object that explains what it means.

Pop-ups are aggravating to me. My opinion is biased. I do not like pop ups. It is probably a deep rooted hatred from my early days of internet browsing.

Quote
one-time popout tooltip(with an option to disable it)

A simple "Don't show this again" option was included in the suggestion.