I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...

[Jamini]

I actually enjoy flying with novice captains.

For one, the "Novice Partnership" achievements have a category for flying with a novice captain.
Not to mention that games with one or more novice captains allows crews to safely experiment/practice with non-meta weapons and equipment load-outs without utterly crippling their team or throwing the game.
Finally, running with a good novice (or several) on your team is a fairly easy way to get in your underdog games/wins.

Quite frankly, what I've found matters more than experience is how well a crew meshes in personality and play-style. You get jerks and assholes at all levels. A victory with a jerk level 45 captain can be an absolutely miserable experience, just as a loss with a cooperative and fun novice captain can be extremely fun. Having to defend a viable load-out against high-level players who feel slaved to the meta is not enjoyable (Having a pyra pilot call chemspray and buff hammer worthless as a classy example I've had recently. I got too much joy in getting on the opposing team in the next map and utterly demolishing them with a buffed Hwachafish as hull/buff engie.)

Ultimately, I think the system we have right now is really quite good. The only way a novice is going to learn how to fly properly is by trying and failing. It's not like losses matter in the long run either way, the point is to have fun.

--------------------------------------------------

Also, when dealing with novices that have better communication skills and are willing to listen: Simply taking them into a practice match and explaining how ship controls work/damage types work can do wonders. Just last night I took a friend/clanmate of mine who hasn't played since before the pyra nerf on a quick practice match to help him learn/remember the basics. We then went on to win two hard-fought matches back-to-back. Anecdotal, but nevertheless relevant.

[Arturo Sanchez]

Cold bro. I wouldn't wanna be the kid trying to escape the humiliation of your wrath by swearing that I had repaired your engine... I recommend using a mouse so you can better see and direct your crew

Like I said I don't need to.

I see an engine get shot out. I stop tool use, waiting for the engine to be fixed. Tick tock, the 2nd disable shot will come any second and I know I'll need to kero dodge that next attempt before that engine is full destroyed/enemy closes distance to kill/enemy snipes a temporarily more easy target.



And we all know, that if an engine is not fixed, the HUD will tell us. If an engine gets fixed and then gets shot again, we will also know. So you simply can't bullshit. In either situation we both know the best course of action and the possible factors like cool down and pilot accordingly. If we have to pilot to compensate for an unfixed engine, we do so, but also knowing that it could be avoided in the first place if a person used a single tool as opposed to doing nothing (in this scenario everything is ok but the engine but that engine is not being fixed-hence the engies arent doing anything). It only takes one thing to create an opening where the enemy ship can force things to spiral into a kill. A ship never just destroys an engine and then stops there.

If you have to look away for obvious details like damaged part like a damaged blackie you aren't taking in information efficiently enough, as looking around to that part means you aren't focusing on spotting the next move the enemy will attempt (you know... the pilot's job). Because the next move you make is best made fully informed.


@Jamini

completely incorrect. If you want to experiment your meta. You do it with people that know how to take advantage of your crazy plan. Give criticism and actually understand the build you have. You don't learn anything from people too dumb to not shoot or prioritise something.

[Solidusbucket]

If you aren't looking around at your crew then you also aren't aware of their positions. Micromanaging is not always necessary. However, even the best crews with a predisposed plan may succumb to tunnel vision. Combat 101,  bro. Leaders micromanage when necessary.

[Arturo Sanchez]

If you aren't looking around at your crew then you also aren't aware of their positions. Micromanaging is not always necessary. However, even the best crews with a predisposed plan may succumb to tunnel vision. Combat 101,  bro. Leaders micromanage when necessary.

Incorrect. Outrightly.

The HUD tells the pilot and crew everything required to maintain a ship. You'd have to be pretty thick as an engie to not spot fires and parts damage just because you're looking away. Because usually there's icons floating on the screen telling you exactly what's going on.

And tunnel vision is not an excuse. Its simply a sign of incompetence.

[BlackenedPies]

I think you missed the point a couple times Max. The HUD tells you the parts but not your crew. With a mouse it's easier to check on your crew

[Solidusbucket]

Totally missed the point. I am talking about where your crew is.

Ever have that crewman rebuilding one turn engine while the other turn engine sits at 10% hp? It happens a lot. This is what I say when I see it. "Smack the other turn engine real quick then rebuild please" Viola. I can turn again.

Also, tunnel vision (in this scenario) is not solely incompetence. It is a mixture of adrenaline and lack of training/practice/experience.

[Arturo Sanchez]

Totally missed the point. I am talking about where your crew is.

Ever have that crewman rebuilding one turn engine while the other turn engine sits at 10% hp? It happens a lot. This is what I say when I see it. "Smack the other turn engine real quick then rebuild please" Viola. I can turn again.

Also, tunnel vision (in this scenario) is not solely incompetence. It is a mixture of adrenaline and lack of training/practice/experience.

And I'm saying I can tell that based on the icons. We all know how long it takes to rebuild a part, and we all know how long a coordinated crew can do it. We all know where everyone should be at all times, especially when people have been assigned to positions (which is a very common practice).

I repeat. I don't need to look when everyone is doing their job, because I can tell the moment someone isn't. By which point any of us is indeed forced to stop concentrating on piloting and forced to investigate wtf went wrong. But before you even look you can create an educated guess that is rarely wrong. An unfixed engine usually results from someone not anywhere near said engine. You only check if someone is actually bothering, and relaying the order that someone should be there a 20 seconds ago. Because by the time you mention it, the enemy has already pressed the advantage made. And at that point you're reprimanding than instructing. (If you counter this, you step on your own toes about a pilot micro-managing)

While on a coordinated ship, that instance where a pilot needs to investigate their crew is non-existent.

I got your point. But you clearly missed mine, where we are all intelligent enough to know what's going on (at least on the ship) without even losing a moment's focus on our own jobs.

common sense people. Jesus.

Also what you describe as factors of not incompetence are in fact the exact traits of incompetence resulting in the form of tunnel vision. Rewording stuff and describing it exactly to what the word was previous doesn't change any definition.

[Solidusbucket]

I am going to avoid making this any kind of an argument. However, I will re-explain myself.

You are very correct in your statement that the captain should know where the crew is (without looking) because the crew is usually assigned their areas of work. You are also correct that you can tell if the correct priorities of work are being done based on the icons.

You are exaggerating your 20 seconds. It only takes a moment to glance to make sure everyone is going to / is at their correct stations and a few more seconds for an order to be issued and executed. However, you are correct that within that time the enemy will have advanced their tactical positioning.

I will counter your point about reprimanding / instructing / micro-managing. I am ordering the crew to do something. Sometimes I do it in the form of a question. Many times I simply order them. There are no reprimands from me  at that moment if they fail to execute the order.  There is simply our ship taking more damage because one crew member made a mistake (sometimes my orders aren't followed and it is to our ship's benefit because I'm not perfect).

You are very right. On a coordinated ship there is no micro-managing. It is great. However, I still check on the crew. I go many games without saying a word because my crew knows what they are doing.

You are correct that we are all intelligent enough to follow the predisposed plan for the ship's priorities of work. However, we are not all practiced enough to do it under pressure. Which brings me to my point of incompetence. You are absolutely right that what I described is incompetence due to tunnel vision - but only to those that are well practiced. Those without the experience / training should not be called incompetent because of lack of (in this case) playtime. Honestly, nobody should be called incompetent for having tunnel vision in this game because if someone is getting tunnel vision then they are having a damn good time.

I personally congratulate those that get tunnel vision. I say encouraging things to them. I like when my crew gets tunnel vision (in pub matches) because it tells me they are having fun. When my crew gets it in competitive matches I don't get mad, but I try to get them to collect their cool.

[Jamini]

@Jamini

completely incorrect. If you want to experiment your meta. You do it with people that know how to take advantage of your crazy plan. Give criticism and actually understand the build you have. You don't learn anything from people too dumb to not shoot or prioritise something.

The amount of arrogance that drips from your post is exactly why I'd prefer running with a novice that meshes well, than a max-level who is an asshole. You've made my point startlingly well. Kudos.

[Kamoba]

@Jamini

completely incorrect. If you want to experiment your meta. You do it with people that know how to take advantage of your crazy plan. Give criticism and actually understand the build you have. You don't learn anything from people too dumb to not shoot or prioritise something.

The amount of arrogance that drips from your post is exactly why I'd prefer running with a novice that meshes well, than a max-level who is an asshole. You've made my point startlingly well. Kudos.

To be fair you're both wrong and both right. It depends on if you're learning through trial and error (Jaminis point.) Or if you're end game competitive ship building (Jazzhands)

It depends on the context, and since the balance changes started it's encouraged newbies learn through trial and error as more guides become outdated and more videos become out dated...

[Arturo Sanchez]

You are exaggerating your 20 seconds.

Looks at any pubbing footage I have.

and say that again.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLynG6bdQH6QXYOK8toWYtyqrhWoWcELFW

and do note I screen my footage for quality to watch, I have plenty of footage of people simply sitting on their hands as we eat damage and there is no attempt of any kind to change the situation on crew side. The footage I got has significantly fewer mistakes so a watcher can easily highlight the cascading effect of a single mistake snowballing into a death.

Because no good enemy pilot just stops at a damaged part. They maintain the pressure and destroy other stuff to overwhelm the crew. If you aren't on top of it the moment it happens, it simply gets worst.

In fact. Just watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M97odye4fkw

its the new format I'm using for pub footage. Crew that don't listen. Crew that do.

On this match bloodlustbeast was struggling with lag. But did I lose my shit? Did I shift blame? No. Because he did everything he could. Did I admit my mistakes as a pilot? Yes I did. Getting trapped on terrain is my fault. Its the risk I run for flying a spire on paritan as opposed to a ship with a flatter profile.

While on the first match. You clearly hear me giving clear commands on what sides to use for a munker. At the start I was giving instruction on how to use them. But since no one is bothering to listen to basic commands like get on x guns. Why would I even bother teaching the subtleties of gunning a mine launcher?

Instead I'll just illustrate why we keep dying. Since I at least can teach the exact reason why we keep dying without a fight and why the enemy is charging us without any fear for their own ship.

[Jamini]

To be fair you're both wrong and both right. It depends on if you're learning through trial and error (Jaminis point.) Or if you're end game competitive ship building (Jazzhands)

It depends on the context, and since the balance changes started it's encouraged newbies learn through trial and error as more guides become outdated and more videos become out dated...

Why would a game with an novice in it as a captain be playing in an end-game competitive match?

Winning or losing in normal deathmatch/cp games is pointless. Who cares if you lose? Have fun with it, learn, get better, and work out interesting strategies. Bring in old friends, make new friends, and help others learn. That doesn't mean don't try, but it does mean that we should step outside our box and screw around.

Also, just because someone is new and unfamilier with the game does not mean they are stupid. I actively seek novices to run and captain my ships, and the vast majority of them (about the same ratio of experienced players) are earnest, well-meaning, and pretty damn eager to learn. Just because someone is not experienced or good yet does not make them stupid, or even a deadweight on the team. It is far more effective to explain patiently to a new player how and why certain setups/ammo work, than it is to try and blanket-ban them from a full third of the game until they "prove themselves"

[Arturo Sanchez]

To be fair you're both wrong and both right. It depends on if you're learning through trial and error (Jaminis point.) Or if you're end game competitive ship building (Jazzhands)

It depends on the context, and since the balance changes started it's encouraged newbies learn through trial and error as more guides become outdated and more videos become out dated...

Why would a game with an novice in it as a captain be playing in an end-game competitive match?

The answer is simple. Because from day one, you are playing at end game. Every player has access to every tool and every ship. With novices getting the defaults to teach basic game mechanics.

And when said novices get out of novice mode to use said non-defaults. They embarrass themselves by showing no understanding of what the game by design is trying to teach them. Frankly, if you area novice getting out of novice mode, you better be dead sure you can fight at mid-high level. Otherwise you got no excuse if you lose. You have a mode made for you to play at your level and you intentionally skipped it. If you can't hack it, theres no one to blame than yourself.


Frankly Kamo I disagree with your 2 ship building philosophies. There is only 1 philosophy. The noob one is just for those too lazy to learn from teachers, the game and the meta. Which is by far the most efficient way.

Because once you understand the mechanics, you do what bored vets do and create crazy builds with intentionally planned crazy results. With noob builds like double flak, you only get embarrassing 5-0 thats no fun for anyone.

[Jamini]

The answer is simple. Because from day one, you are playing at end game. Every player has access to every tool and every ship. With novices getting the defaults to teach basic game mechanics.

And when said novices get out of novice mode to use said non-defaults. They embarrass themselves by showing no understanding of what the game by design is trying to teach them. Frankly, if you area novice getting out of novice mode, you better be dead sure you can fight at mid-high level. Otherwise you got no excuse if you lose. You have a mode made for you to play at your level and you intentionally skipped it. If you can't hack it, theres no one to blame than yourself.


Frankly Kamo I disagree with your 2 ship building philosophies. There is only 1 philosophy. The noob one is just for those too lazy to learn from teachers, the game and the meta. Which is by far the most efficient way.

Because once you understand the mechanics, you do what bored vets do and create crazy builds with intentionally planned crazy results. With noob builds like double flak, you only get embarrassing 5-0 thats no fun for anyone.

I didn't realize we were playing in a ranked mode/tournaments 24/7 and had to perform in top, 100% meta form at all times ever without any deviation until we fit a narrow definition of "vet" in order to learn and experiment.

Oh wait, no, we don't. Those are on weekends with sign-ups and the Vet queue. That's where you are supposed to bring your A-game.

In any game, the meta is a crutch for learning for new players, and a no-thought fallback of experienced players. Nothing else. Frankly, most matches do not matter. Winning outside of a tournament setting is pointless. Your win statistic is just a number that will steadily go up, nothing more. Outside of a match that has stakes (Glory, Fame, Money) a win is pointless except for the enjoyment you get out of it. The point of any game is to have fun with it, arbitrarily restricting people from a third of the game just because they might do poorly is the complete antithesis of that.

Seriously mate, you sound like a MOBA player right now.

If you don't want to play with novices/novice captains on either team, then don't. Stick to vet games, lobbies without newbies, premades, and tournaments. That attitude has its place, and frankly it shouldn't be in pubs.

[Schwalbe]

Ceresbane, first of all, go fuck yourself with a sodding stake. Just because you can't fucking understand something (in this case, having fun or just playing the way that is different than yours) doesn't entitle you to act as a motherfucking prophet, and you only end up looking like a twat. I spew so much hatred, because I have a really bad day, and I'm not going to apologize. I'm so fucking done with your berating just for the reason of not being a carbon copy of your oh-so-entitled-opinion, and I have a hunch that I'm not alone in that.


Second of all Jamini - your attitude is adorable and somewhat commandable. But understand this, please: some of us are just tired. Some of us just want to pop up in game, play a match with people who know what they are doing and appreciate the work of nicely oiled cogs in the machine that is the crew.

Now throw even the small rock in between, and all this will jam the hell, and everything goes to shit. It's that simple.

And trust me, players who don't understand is not the problem - the problem is player who doesn't give a flying fuck. And I wouldn't be so keen on using "majority" when it comes to speak about people eager to learn the game, unfortunatelly.

Consider, that this comes from a mouth of a person who wanted to become a bloody CA, because I was already doing a CA's job a plenty - and I even had some pleasure doing so. I always teach people willing to learn, unless I'm too tired, then I say outright: please, consider I'm fucking tired, and that this match might not be fun for both of us.

And I'd say, that there is maybe 25% of players really eager to learn, 30% of people giving a damn of what you say, but not very much of that really matters to them, 20% is not giving a flying fuck at all, 15% is trolling unintentionally, the rest are pure trolls.

I'm not calling you naive, or whatever - as I said, your attitude is commendable, and I hope it persists as long as possible, as it's really needed nowadays in this game. Keep it up mate.