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Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode

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DJ Tipz N Trix:
I have actually been calling for a blind pick for awhile.  This is a great idea that is already commonplace across most competitive communities.  Currently, it is still just as easy to be counterpicked.  All that happens is that the teams will take turns changing their ships in the lobby until the timer runs out, and then it's whoever scrambled to get their crew ready in time gets to counterpick the other one.

However, one genre of game that doesn't do blind pick is the MOBA genre.  With many picks to take (usually 5 per team), a MOBA system can evolve on the blind pick to create a whole draft mode. Lueosi actually said "tactical drafting" in his original post, and blind picking isn't actually that much of a tactical draft.  While it does make the picking system more fair and less clunky, it does have the downside of possibly allowing you to be counterpicked without having an opportunity to do anything about it.  Instead, a typical draft system could look as follows:

We have ships 1-1 and 1-2 on the same team, and ships 2-1 and 2-2 on the same team.

Ship 1-1 picks chassis (main ship, like junker, goldfish, etc)
Ships 2-1 and 2-2 pick chassis
Ship 1-2 picks chassis
Ship 2-1 picks guns
Ships 1-1 and 1-2 pick guns
Ship 2-2 picks guns

This gives a solid structure to the picking system, allows you to respond to opponent counterpicks, and generally leads to more balance between the ship loadouts.  For example, if ships 1-1 and 1-2 counterpick ship 2-1 after their guns are set, ship 2-2 has a chance to counterpick ships 1-1 and 1-2.  Regardless, I think blind pick is a step in the right direction and much better than what we currently have, though I believe a draft could work better.

Skrimskraw:
Wether you like the idea or not doesn't change the fact that SCS also qualifies as a testing grounds for rules.

Back when we started it me and velvet created rules based on prior events.
The first ruleset were pretty basic and have changed quite a bit since the beginning. Some things we tested like the 20min time rule without over time, and some things we implemented without testing such as the double elimination system.

Durin my organization of SCS i decided to host a seperate testing event to test said blindpicks etc. it didnt work that well. It was hard to find enough teams to participate and get proper feedback from such a vague event.
After my experience with this seperate event I realized that if you want to test, you have to do it in primetime sunday or saturday. therefore SCS is the only place where you can test new rules atm. - I don't see how it can be a surprize that this will be tested in SCS since SCS was created as a place for teams to play other teams without tournament level of competitive pressure.

The ruleset you know in scs stems from me and Velvet agressively decreasing the amount of rules that have been used in previous events, due to referees being unable to enforce and handle major rulesets. if the current organizers feel that they can handle more rules, such as a blindpick function then why not test it? If you don't like it from trying it, then express your feedback after testing the rulechanges. feedback based on "I think" or "I don't like" is litterary useless, and why the dev app testing is such a complete failure, because no one tests things proper.

Bottom line:
Test it
Give feedback

And if there is a majority towards this being terrible, then the organizers won't implement it.  SCS is dependent on its participating teams, the moment the organizers decide to rule over the teams is the moment you shouldn't sign up.

Urz:
Lueosi's post may be a bit verbose, but this is not some crazy idea. Blind picks are very common in competitive games and used in a wide range of genres. Guns of Icarus is in the minority by giving both teams perfect knowledge of their opponent's composition, and only because Muse doesn't have the time or interest in putting together a proper system for tournaments.

For example: here is the blind pick clause from the ruleset of the fighting game world championship, Evolution.

In my opinion, perfect information is a crutch and has led to a mentality of teams always needing to always have the "on paper" advantage. That is no more a test of skill than both teams "bringing their shit", or a team getting an advantage through superior predictions.


--- Quote from: DJ Tipz N Trix ---However, one genre of game that doesn't do blind pick is the MOBA genre.
--- End quote ---
Actually, most mobas do have blind pick modes which are often the default for online play. The notable exception which does not is Dota.

Two and a half years ago I proposed a draft format for this game. Another proposal was posted more recently by Puppy Fur, as a possible format for Hephaestus 2. The idea has been debated to the point of ad nauseam.

Personally I would like to see a more advanced drafting system be tested in SCS, but as you can see, the community reacts pretty negatively to any perceived complexity.

ZnC:
This does sound like a good idea, there have been no drafting rules for SCS and teams can keep switching ships in the lobby.

However, counter-picking in drafts is part of the skill involved; based on limited information, anticipate and counter your opponent's strategy. So I suggest one slight change: Blind pick one ship for each team first, reveal that information, then allow the second ships to blind pick.

Completely locking down all ships, I would imagine, can be pretty one sided (and boring).

GurasOguras:
Progress will always divide people. That's how it just is. You can't please everyone.

I just don't like that "The next SCS #67 will introduce" sounds like "Since now every SCS will have such rule which haven't even been tested" and that pissed me off. Instead of that is should be said "At SCS #67 We would like to test new system"

That's something I wouldn't complain about.

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