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A Suggestion for the Echidna Light Flak Cannon

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Daft Loon:

--- Quote from: Lieutenant Noir on September 15, 2015, 12:57:40 am ---I would be okay with the ability to only be able to kill in 2 clips if Muse incorporated some system of play where a severely damaged ship had permanent disable properties. Examples being:
-A broken ship being harder for crew members to move around
-Gun arcs being slightly harder to angle
-Piloting perspective distorted (Having a broken wall in your face obscuring your situational awareness)
This change however would probably make Kill weapons a little too over-powered but I would be all for having quicker matches.

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I like this idea from a thematic perspective but it could have some balance problems as far as leaving suicide and re-spawn as a better option sometimes than continuing.
A variant - Hit points of all components reduced in proportion to hull damage. Maybe at 50% rate so taking half damage from a flak would reduce armor, guns etc to 75% hit points. It might be a bit hard on 90% dead squids (130 armor!) and would more or less require a hwacha nerf.

Dementio:

--- Quote from: Lieutenant Noir on September 15, 2015, 12:57:40 am ---If you look back, I mentioned that guns with Arming Time offer High rewards in return for difficulty of use within a short time frame. I have a tendency of not being very clear, so once again please bear with me as I will try to be as clear as I can.


--- Quote from: Lieutenant Noir on September 14, 2015, 01:34:31 am ---I mentioned that in order to deal with the fact that Arming time makes a lot of guns not very flexible, guns with arming time utilize high rewards per clip as well as difficulty of use.
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--- Quote from: Lieutenant Noir on September 14, 2015, 01:34:31 am ---Not to mention, they are also hard to operate (Fly/Shoot) and so the effectiveness of the high reward is balanced toward this aspect.
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My Points were


--- Quote from: Lieutenant Noir on September 14, 2015, 01:34:31 am ---These are all guns that are not only popular but they are very effective at their jobs
Can you imagine how ineffective these guns would be if their first clip was not able to do their job?
They work because they are effective within a short amount of time and that works perfectly with arming time as a factor.

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Yes, I can imagine how ineffective these guns would be if their first clip was not able to do their job, because most of their first clip will very often not do their job, because they are hard to hit with and sometimes even easy to dodge.

Arming time isn't even a factor in how effective the guns are within a short amount of time. Arming time only helps Muse to tell people where the guns are supposed to be used. If arming time really was that bad than think about this: Hades. If people don't use the Light Flak than they probably kill ships a lot less quicker than they want to, but luckily they manage to keep the enemy either out of arming time of the Hades or have a pair of close range guns to fight with when it comes down to it. If they had at least one Light Flak than it should mean that they kill or severly damage their target before it even gets into close range. And once they had at least one armor break to empty their entire Light Flak clip into their enemy and the enemy survived that, then they could still kill their enemy with the Light Flak even when it was inside arming time! Except for the Galleon, it would survive that second clip when it was inside arming time, but realistically speaking it would be hilarious if a Galleon managed to enter the Light Flak's arming time.
Yes, an Artemis could then easily snipe that Light Flak and if they Light Flak could one clip all ships it would at have a higher chance to win in the above mentioned scenario. But at the same time, I hope at least, the Artemis was sniping the Hades so it wouldn't even come to an armor break in the first place, which would result in the Light Flak, and all other explosive/explosive guns in that scenario, to be "completely uselss" during the fight, but luckily the Light Flak has already more dps against the armor than the Banshee, so when chem spray is perfectly up and running, the Light Flak may actually have some use.

And why do you assume that the Light Flak's job is to kill every ship within on clip? Because all those other two guns with explosive/explosive can do that? Do all explosive/explosive guns have to follow that trend and if yes, would it make the game better if all of these guns would essentially be the exact same thing? Personally, I find that the current Light Flak is a good way of killing ships, even if it can only one clip 3 out of 7 ships. I don't like the fact that ships die as quickly as they do in general, if you were wondering.
And is the Light Flak not effective in killing ships? It takes two clips to pretty much get a guaranteed kill. It takes two clip for the Light Carronade to destroy a balloon and that is effective too, isn't it? I do throw that Carronade into these arguments a lot, but when you think about it, a ship without a balloon is out of combat, which is similar to a ship that is already dead, as it leaves the other one in a 2v1.
And if the Hades is so effective at destroying armors, shouldn't it mean that a skilled gunner can drop armors left and right? So many and quick armor destructions should make it very easy for the Light Flak to kill a ship, even when it requires at least two clips.

You said "high rewards in return for difficulty of use within a short time frame". The Light Flak is not that difficult and so returns not that much reward. You want it to be more difficult so it would give more reward, as in, you mentioned "more like the Heavy Flak", so:

--- Quote from: Dementio on September 02, 2015, 10:13:21 am ---Instead of making the Light Flak more like the Heavy Flak, why not use the Heavy Flak to begin with?

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If I want to destroy a balloon in one clip, I will use the Heavy Carronade or Lumberjack. If I want to kill all ships in medium/long range with only one clip, I would use the Heavy Flak (or still the Light Flak). Why buff one gun, a gun that is in my opinion just fine as it is, when you can use another gun to achieve what you want to achieve? I suppose it is not the same if you are forced to use a heavy gun which only 3 ships in the game allow you to do (or just 2, because the Goldfish doesn't support Heavy Flaks), but that is where pilot skill comes in: Make a ship loadout that does exactly what you want it to do and then make it do that in-game.

I would also find it rather silly, if the Light Flak would be as powerful as its heavy version, its not even as big as a Mortar, but that's just design.


--- Quote from: Lieutenant Noir on September 15, 2015, 12:57:40 am ---All of these ships carry something that disables in order to stand up against the Current (Super Quotation Marks) Multi-Range Disable Meta(Super Quotation Marks)
On all of these ships, you would pretty much be able to replace the Explosive Explosive guns for something that disables such as a Hwatcha, an Artemis, a Banshee, etc. I remember flying these ships because
--- Quote from: Dementio on September 14, 2015, 09:01:30 am ---we often got the kill very quickly, while disabling our own enemy
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I said that, because, as you pointed out, explosive/explosive guns tend to be rather useless outside of armor breaks, so I gave you one example scenario where you can use the Light Flak during somebody else's armor break. The Light Flak, and all explosive guns in general, are not limited to killing the one ship that you decided to 1v1, it can still kill other ships too. The Lumberjack gave us many opportunities to just kill whoever our ally is fighting. At the same time, the Lumberjack only made these kind of things easier, since we could have very well gone for the other ship from the very beginning and probably killed it with Hades/Flak Pyramidion, before we would have needed the disable power of the Lumberjack.


--- Quote from: Lieutenant Noir on September 15, 2015, 12:57:40 am ---I'm want the Flak to have the Potential to one clip a ship. You can miss shots with the Mortar or Heavy Flak, you don't always kill with two clips on those either.
The Flak is still pretty hard to use as I mentioned


--- Quote from: Lieutenant Noir on September 14, 2015, 01:34:31 am ---(The spread at range, the projectile speed in terms of predicting Armour break, Determining effective range, Flying at mid-range etc)
--- End quote ---

You wouldn't always land every shot with the Flak just like with the others. If you increase its overall clip damage... lets put it this way, you would increase the chances of killing a ship in a second clip (Without the use of a buff hammer). In return, being able to land every single shot would be up to the skill of the shooter.

--- End quote ---

The above also applies here.



Now that's just a shot into the dark, but I believe we have found ourselves in a position where it is "I want" vs "You want" and we will continue in circles from here on out. You want a Light Flak that can do around the same damage as the Heavy Flak while also being as hard to shoot with as the Heavy Flak. I don't want that, because I believe it would make the gun, and the gameplay of killing, more dull, whereas you could keep it as it is, as I believe it is fine as it is, even in comp, and even newer players have a gun that they can actually hit and kill with.

Lieutenant Noir:
I apologize, I miss calculated. I thought it was 512 not 743.68 all this time (Forgot the Explosive multiplier). Oops :P
Silly me

Now that I realize that the Light Flak does have the damage potential to back it up, I think I would like a clip size reduction while keeping it's overall damage per clip.
Yes, I'm still leaning towards the Flak being able to kill within a shorter period of time.


--- Quote from: Dementio on September 15, 2015, 05:03:47 am ---Yes, an Artemis could then easily snipe that Light Flak and if they Light Flak could one clip all ships it would at have a higher chance to win in the above mentioned scenario. But at the same time, I hope at least, the Artemis was sniping the Hades so it wouldn't even come to an armor break in the first place, which would result in the Light Flak, and all other explosive/explosive guns in that scenario, to be "completely uselss" during the fight, but luckily the Light Flak has already more dps against the armor than the Banshee, so when chem spray is perfectly up and running, the Light Flak may actually have some use.

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I think from this post the point was that in a scenario where the light Flak was used, it wouldn't be effective because it would be disabled or Armour stripper being disabled. Do tell me if I'm wrong because I'm having a hard time understanding (This is nothing personal but I do have trouble sometimes understanding people).

I'm going to mention the list of Builds that incorporate Explosive Explosive weapons again

--- Quote from: Lieutenant Noir on September 14, 2015, 01:34:31 am ---Brawler Spires and Mobulas, the Meta Galleon, and the infamous Loch Spire all incorporate these weapons.

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I want to mention that all these ships usually contain a disable weapon of their own whether it be a Hwatcha, Artemis, Merc, or Lumberjack. I also want to mention that not all of these ships are seen in competitive and they shouldn't.
The reason I bring these ships up is the fact that they are used, not all the time but see regular use.

These ships often incorporate a combination of guns that disable as well as stand well on their own. Some examples being Double Gat/Hwatcha, Merc/Art, Hades/Lumber, etc. They are incorporated in order to make the ship stand up in the Age of the (Super Quotation Marks)Multi-Range Disable Meta(Super Quotation Marks)
I also want to mention that the Explosive Explosive weapons are effective within a short period of time, whether it be the fact that the Mortar can one clip or Flak can two clip at a fairly faster rate.
These are the types of ships I want the Light Flak used more on and I think being effective within a shorter period of time would mean more opportunities to use the Flak.

Next Point


--- Quote from: Dementio on September 15, 2015, 05:03:47 am ---If I want to kill all ships in medium/long range with only one clip, I would use the Heavy Flak (or still the Light Flak). Why buff one gun, a gun that is in my opinion just fine as it is, when you can use another gun to achieve what you want to achieve? I suppose it is not the same if you are forced to use a heavy gun which only 3 ships in the game allow you to do (or just 2, because the Goldfish doesn't support Heavy Flaks), but that is where pilot skill comes in: Make a ship loadout that does exactly what you want it to do and then make it do that in-game.

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-I want the Light Flak to be effective within a shorter period of time because it is an Explosive Explosive weapon that incorporates Arming Time (The inability to Brawl). I believe that if you make the Flak more effective within a shorter period of time there would still be reasons to use the Heavy Flak. The Heavy Flak would have more range as well as the quick time it takes to unload a clip. You wouldn't kill as fast and you wouldn't have the range, I believe this would make the two guns able to stand on their own.

-I believe there are not that many opportunities to use the Light Flak and I want to see it used by more people

-When you stick an Explosive Explosive weapon on a ship and your build is effective, it sort of defines your build load-out. The kill potential is impressive and most ships that incorporate Explosive Explosive weapons are build around the fact that you want the Kill Potential (and you want it fast against the potential of disable). Unless your ship is going full troll, there's not a lot of flexibility a weapon like the Light Flak can have (Especially when you have Arming Time to factor into the equation).

Next Point


--- Quote from: Dementio on September 15, 2015, 05:03:47 am ---It takes two clip for the Light Carronade to destroy a balloon and that is effective too, isn't it? I do throw that Carronade into these arguments a lot, but when you think about it, a ship without a balloon is out of combat, which is similar to a ship that is already dead, as it leaves the other one in a 2v1.
And if the Hades is so effective at destroying armors, shouldn't it mean that a skilled gunner can drop armors left and right? So many and quick armor destructions should make it very easy for the Light Flak to kill a ship, even when it requires at least two clips.

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Okay, I know that I said that I didn't want to compare Disable weapons to Kill-only weapons because of how effective disables are in comparison to Killing potential. I think I might as well compare them since it's going to keep popping up anyway.
You already compared the Flak to the Artemis and so that fight is lost
-I will now compare the Light Flak to the Light Carronade
-Now you mentioned in the quote above that a disabled Balloon means dead ship right?
so Popped Balloon = Killed Ship
-Bear in mind that one of these guns is only effective when the Armour is down, where as the other gun can be used immediately
-That means the Light Carronade can effectively kill a ship faster than a Light Flak can.
-There that's it... Comparison over. Kill-only weapons suck and that's why we have a Disable Meta, why am I even talking about a Kill-only weapon?


Next Point


--- Quote from: Dementio on September 15, 2015, 05:03:47 am ---You want a Light Flak that can do around the same damage as the Heavy Flak while also being as hard to shoot with as the Heavy Flak. I don't want that, because I believe it would make the gun, and the gameplay of killing, more dull, whereas you could keep it as it is, as I believe it is fine as it is, even in comp, and even newer players have a gun that they can actually hit and kill with.

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-Here is where our points differ because I don't think the Flak is very easy to hit with
I don't think that it is because of the points that I mentioned

--- Quote from: Lieutenant Noir on September 14, 2015, 01:34:31 am ---(The spread at range, the projectile speed in terms of predicting Armour break, Determining effective range, Flying at mid-range etc).

--- End quote ---
This is the only point that I fully believe we have reached a Stalemate on because I see this gun as one of the harder guns to operate and especially for new players.

-In terms of changing the game play of killing, I believe with the inclusion of this change it will not have any effect on the Disable Meta.
What we would see would be an increase in use of the Flak in "Disable" builds or currently existing Kill Builds. My point was never to change the Meta but to get the Flak into the current meta or more than it is currently.



I do sort of enjoy these discussions as it helps me with my inability to be clear with my points. Do let me know if you don't know where I'm going with a point. The feedback helps.

Daft Loon:
The light flak can be easy to hit with but it suffers the same from turning as the artemis, possibly more. Just yesterday i had an engineer on my flak-hades-hades mobula hitting full clips consistently at around 700m, mostly because having only 10 degrees of effective arc means flying very carefully. (unfortunately he was an awful engineer and the gunner was hitting nothing but air with his hades so i didn't get to see what kind of effect it could have had, as it was we killed the galleon at least as fast as double artemis would). The timing is also an overstated difficulty since mobula,pyra,junker and galleon armor takes long enough to rebuild that even the worst case where rebuilding starts at the same time as the reload the flak can still get hits on hull and squid,goldfish and spire are in serious danger of losing the last of their armor to the flak and taking half the clip to hull.

Going back to the original suggestion there is a slight limitation to compressing the damage into fewer shots - Lochnagar
The current loch-L.flak does an almost respectable 250 hull damage and as much fun as it would be to dish out 500-750 (compresing to 3 or 2 shots) damage with a single light gun shot people might find it objectionable. Especially since an arming range reduced to 75m is essentially no obstacle (loch mines are 66m). So 4 shots minimum.

One thing that is annoying is that it gets very little from ammo choice, you can lose 50 damage per clip to gain half a second or lose a second to gain 100 with no real effect on average damage over time.

Pointless nitpick:
The light carronade can 1 clip balloons, you just need perfect burst or buff shots (if they get the mallet hit in perfect buff-burst shots)

Lieutenant Noir:
I would say I would be happy with a 4 shot clip for the Flak

In terms of damage output for the Flak if we were to keep the normal round total explosive output the same
meaning 480 explosive damage into 4 shots.
So maybe 75 direct damage and 45 Aoe damage

This would mean ammo types would only be either Heat-sink or Charged as recommended
Heat-sink would do a total of 5 shots with a clip potential of 480 so same as normal but you get a decrease in Arming time

Charged would do a total of 3 shots with a clip potential of 468 so it's less but you have a smaller clip so less shots to make (I have yet to factor in the 25% decrease in rate of fire)

With this you would still be able to one clip a Pyra and Junker for both Ammunition
This would be overall less damage than the previous heat-sink Flak damage potential of 512 but would have a higher rate of fire due to less shots and not having to land as many shots to be effective.
You would be able to get that second clip ready in time for the next armor break.

Yeah, I would say it would be better than having to land all 8 heat-sink shots at a distance while predicting the armor break to pull off the total damage potential.



--- Quote from: Daft Loon on September 15, 2015, 10:17:59 am ---The light carronade can 1 clip balloons, you just need perfect burst or buff shots (if they get the mallet hit in perfect buff-burst shots)

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Shhhhhhhhhh, no more

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