Main > Gameplay

A Suggestion for the Echidna Light Flak Cannon

<< < (9/15) > >>

Kamoba:

--- Quote from: BlackenedPies on September 13, 2015, 11:07:58 am ---The smoke effect seems largely determined by graphics settings.

--- End quote ---

So if Muse did buff the smoke visual, they'd also need to re-work it so it is not effected by graphics settings..

I still like the idea of buffing the smoke effect.

Lieutenant Noir:
Okay, after some thinking I take back what I said about the whole smoke Flak thing
We would have to deal with a name change, damage change, how effective something like creating a piloting blind spot would really be, and a smoke cannon should really have a separate gun model.



I'm going to mention some more points about why I favor a damage increase rather than ease of use because I don't think I was very clear.
I know that I will be pissing a lot of people off by suggesting the Flak become a mid-range Heavy Flak as I have already suggested, but I don't see anywhere else the gun can go.

I mentioned that in order to deal with the fact that Arming time makes a lot of guns not very flexible, guns with arming time utilize high rewards per clip as well as difficulty of use.
Lumberjack
Heavy Flak
Hades
Mines
(I stated the sheer effectiveness of these guns in a previous post)

These are all guns that are not only popular but they are very effective at their jobs
Can you imagine how ineffective these guns would be if their first clip was not able to do their job?
They work because they are effective within a short amount of time and that works perfectly with arming time as a factor. Not to mention, they are also hard to operate (Fly/Shoot) and so the effectiveness of the high reward is balanced toward this aspect.

In my original suggestion, the Flak would be a mortar that has arming time (No Brawl) but more range and it would have been a Heavy Flak with less range as well as taking longer to kill.
Originally I wanted to only increase the damage because I was under the impression that a lot of people had a hard time shooting this Flak (The spread at range, the projectile speed in terms of predicting Armour break, Determining effective range, Flying at mid-range etc).
Even though I have been thinking for a long time, I don't know how much harder you can make the gun shoot. I'll probably think of something quick.

I know that this would be a significant change to a gun that has had a bad past but I would rather see it have a place in the game rather than be a gun for Vets to use to make their ship load outs unique or bring it out when they need to farm Achievements. Actually, I think that the Flak has a place in this game.... I don't like it and I want it to have a higher priority on ships.

An alternate route the Flak could take would be to get rid of arming time and make it do only a fraction of it's previous explosive damage. This would mean; however, that the Flak would truly have no place as it would be outclassed by the capabilities of other guns. I'm sure you would all hate for this as it would be a return of the previous Flak but useless as it would probably not kill anything fast enough to stand up to a disable in the current Meta.



In regards to the Disable Meta, People still bring kill weapons like the Mortar and Heavy Flak. Although there are many many reasons as to why someone would put them on their ship in the age of the Disable Meta, one of them is the damage potential of Only-kill weapons. Brawler Spires and Mobulas, the Meta Galleon, and the infamous Loch Spire all incorporate these weapons. There should be more reasons to put a Light Flak on your ship, much like a Mortar and Heavy Flak.

Dementio:
Heavy Carronade destroys balloons in one clip, Light Carronade in two clips.
Heavy Flak destroys hull in one clip, Light Flak destroys in two clips.

However, the Heavy Flak at range is very much not guaranteed as timing armor breaks with it is nigh impossible and the Light Flak can actually destroy 3/7 ships in one clip. How many times did you manage to one clip a Squid or Goldfish with a Heavy Flak? The Light Flak makes up for its lack of one clip kill ability with its ability to empty the clip very quickly and reload fast, which means that Squid, Goldfish and Spire, ships that the Light Flak can't one clip and have very low amount of armor so it breaks very easily, are in danger of being two clipped very quickly.

There are multiple guns that can't "do their job" with one clip only:
A Mercury can destroy every component with one shot only, but its armor destruction ability is very weak.
The Artemis is also good at destroying components, but is unable to quickly kill a ship once the armor is down, often due to the fact that it emptied more than half its clip before the armor breaks.
The Light Carronade, as alreay mentioned, can't destroy a balloon in one clip and although it does limit the enemies vertical mobility, there is a good chance it can't save your ally.
The Banshee in comp (or just "against good enemies") is supposed to fail miserably at its job. It can set fires? The ship probably has chem spray up and running just fine, and even though chem spray reduces repairs per second it would probably be up and running even if you don't have a banshee. But it can help stress the engineers out and disrupt chem cycles? By that time you probably already got an armor break, because Gatling and Hades. If you really wanted to kill them, the Banshee wouldn't be your gun of choice.
The Hades is not so strong. Numbers say it can easily destroy armors in one clip, which often doesn't happen, because it happens to be rather hard to hit with.
The Mine Launcher is a very unreliable and slow gun that sometimes can't do its job if the pilot has kerosene or moonshine activated so he doesn't get turned around.

And there is rarely only one ship in combat. If your ally is not a quick kill ship, you could use the Light Flak to severly damage your ally's enemy's hull, which might even kill him. The Banshee and the Artemis could potentially also do this at range, but it is much less damage output from those guns. On that Lumberjack Spire that I mentioned earlier this thread where I do have the Light Flak, said tactic of shooting your ally's enemy was working very well as we often got the kill very quickly, while disabling our own enemy with the Lumberjack, so its not a completely wrong thing to do.


--- Quote from: Lieutenant Noir on September 14, 2015, 01:34:31 am ---There should be more reasons to put a Light Flak on your ship, much like a Mortar and Heavy Flak.

--- End quote ---

There are reasons to put a Light Flak on your ship, the problem is that the enemy often gives you enough reasons to not put it on your ship. Not being able to kill within one clip is never the primary reason, which is its lack of disable or brawling ability.

Daft Loon:
Might just be a boatload of confirmation bias applied to my general anti-meta prejudices but since this discussion started I've been putting the light flak on a bunch of ships and really liking the results. Today added the combination on a junker with hades + front art and the somewhat silly L.flak,Minotaur,Lumberjack galleon (the match i ran it was a novice crew i hadn't bothered to organize vs novice opposition so I'm not sure if the impressive damage is massively over or understated by circumstance).

As crew i found it really effective on a murder-spire paired with the hwacha and both engineers shooting upper deck guns essentially creating constant hull damage potential. I don't think the banshee, mortar or artemis can compare in that role.

Lieutenant Noir:
Hey, I figured out how to Quote!
This is so cool

Okay, back to the topic at hand,
If you look back, I mentioned that guns with Arming Time offer High rewards in return for difficulty of use within a short time frame. I have a tendency of not being very clear, so once again please bear with me as I will try to be as clear as I can.


--- Quote from: Lieutenant Noir on September 14, 2015, 01:34:31 am ---I mentioned that in order to deal with the fact that Arming time makes a lot of guns not very flexible, guns with arming time utilize high rewards per clip as well as difficulty of use.
--- End quote ---

--- Quote from: Lieutenant Noir on September 14, 2015, 01:34:31 am ---Not to mention, they are also hard to operate (Fly/Shoot) and so the effectiveness of the high reward is balanced toward this aspect.
--- End quote ---

My Points were


--- Quote from: Lieutenant Noir on September 14, 2015, 01:34:31 am ---These are all guns that are not only popular but they are very effective at their jobs
Can you imagine how ineffective these guns would be if their first clip was not able to do their job?
They work because they are effective within a short amount of time and that works perfectly with arming time as a factor.
--- End quote ---

Okay next point


--- Quote from: Dementio on September 14, 2015, 09:01:30 am ---There are reasons to put a Light Flak on your ship, the problem is that the enemy often gives you enough reasons to not put it on your ship. Not being able to kill within one clip is never the primary reason, which is its lack of disable or brawling ability.
--- End quote ---

I'm going to have a look at the ships that incorporate Explosive Explosive weapons that I mentioned previously because I didn't elaborate on them.


--- Quote from: Lieutenant Noir on September 14, 2015, 01:34:31 am ---Brawler Spires and Mobulas, the Meta Galleon, and the infamous Loch Spire all incorporate these weapons. There should be more reasons to put a Light Flak on your ship, much like a Mortar and Heavy Flak.
--- End quote ---

All of these ships carry something that disables in order to stand up against the Current (Super Quotation Marks) Multi-Range Disable Meta(Super Quotation Marks)
On all of these ships, you would pretty much be able to replace the Explosive Explosive guns for something that disables such as a Hwatcha, an Artemis, a Banshee, etc. I remember flying these ships because
--- Quote from: Dementiolink=topic=6779.msg117772#msg117772 date=1442235690 ---we often got the kill very quickly, while disabling our own enemy
--- End quote ---

Onto the Next Point


--- Quote from: Dementio on September 14, 2015, 09:01:30 am ---However, the Heavy Flak at range is very much not guaranteed as timing armor breaks with it is nigh impossible and the Light Flak can actually destroy 3/7 ships in one clip. How many times did you manage to one clip a Squid or Goldfish with a Heavy Flak? The Light Flak makes up for its lack of one clip kill ability with its ability to empty the clip very quickly and reload fast, which means that Squid, Goldfish and Spire, ships that the Light Flak can't one clip and have very low amount of armor so it breaks very easily, are in danger of being two clipped very quickly.
--- End quote ---

I'm want the Flak to have the Potential to one clip a ship. You can miss shots with the Mortar or Heavy Flak, you don't always kill with two clips on those either.
The Flak is still pretty hard to use as I mentioned


--- Quote from: Lieutenant Noir on September 14, 2015, 01:34:31 am ---(The spread at range, the projectile speed in terms of predicting Armour break, Determining effective range, Flying at mid-range etc)
--- End quote ---

You wouldn't always land every shot with the Flak just like with the others. If you increase its overall clip damage... lets put it this way, you would increase the chances of killing a ship in a second clip (Without the use of a buff hammer). In return, being able to land every single shot would be up to the skill of the shooter.




I would be okay with the ability to only be able to kill in 2 clips if Muse incorporated some system of play where a severely damaged ship had permanent disable properties. Examples being:
-A broken ship being harder for crew members to move around
-Gun arcs being slightly harder to angle
-Piloting perspective distorted (Having a broken wall in your face obscuring your situational awareness)
This change however would probably make Kill weapons a little too over-powered but I would be all for having quicker matches.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page