Handicap system..

[Crafeksterty]

Yeah, its close to taunting the opponents.

There are allready ways to handicap oneself like mentioned.
To be honest, once Coop or Adventure mode punches the shelves in the face, then we may have more competent players. Like players that play coop, get accostumed to the game, then bring their known skills to pvp so we wont need to think too much about noobs and whatnot in pvp because they will know how to intereact around ships.

So there wont be a need for any kind of handicap whatsoever.

[Kamoba]

This sounds like "I'm so much better than you that I have to gimp my ship for this to even be close, and I'll still win."

Players basically do this already, when competent teams bring silly ships or try to go all gunner/pilot. It may make the match a little closer, but it's also incredibly insulting to the other team.

Insulting to the other team?

This is a matter of opinion with no correct answer.

Clan of talents players press play on match maker, the enemy are all novice/fresh from tutorial players.

The clan takes regular load outs and are branded evil puppy murdering pub stompers abusing their mlg pro talents to torture the weak.

The clan takes all gunner or all pilot load outs, one different repair tool each, chemical spray man who's job it is to make sure everything is chemed, spanner guy, his job is to rebuild broken components, pipe wrench guy, this guy is normally the actual gunner, who's job will involve both the guns (because gungineer does not exist on this gimp ship..) and Mallet guy who is in charge of repairs on recently rebuilt components, whoever has time takes helm, normally the spanner and mallet guy taking turns..
For playing like this the clan is insulting the enemy for giving them a fair fight while challenging their own abilities and capabilities.

So who is the winner? The clan who any time they have anyone lower level than them leaves the lobby?
Oh wait, those guys never get to play a game and wind up leaving (may they dota in peace)

It is not an insult to put more of a challenge upon yourself if you know your enemy is in an unfair fight, it is a sign of respect and it gives them a chance to have a fight in which they get a few kills and don't rage quit the game after a 5-0 while swearing about elitist try hards....

[Kamoba]

Yeah, its close to taunting the opponents.

There are allready ways to handicap oneself like mentioned.
To be honest, once Coop or Adventure mode punches the shelves in the face, then we may have more competent players. Like players that play coop, get accostumed to the game, then bring their known skills to pvp so we wont need to think too much about noobs and whatnot in pvp because they will know how to intereact around ships.

So there wont be a need for any kind of handicap whatsoever.

Yes I really hope coop and adventure become a training grounds for a thriving pvp, and not a graveyard pvp hidden under the shadow of "casual" coop players

[Richard LeMoon]

fighting games, rts, rhythm games, fps, mmos, mobas do no such thing and for a very good reason.

Ya, except that they do. A lot of popular games have had handicapping systems, either voluntary or automatic. Some are hidden within the game and are dynamic to help out whoever is behind at the time.

The point of these systems is fun=money. Getting stomped with no chance of winning = no fun. I have noticed that the MLGpro guys in this game never seem to have fun anyways. It is win or nothing to them. The rush of the win is all that matters. They care nothing for the fun of others. The game is ONLY about getting good and getting to the top.

I, personally, would rather give players a hand up. More fun= more players = more money. You don't make money by catering to the few at the top.

[Thomas]

I'd be perfectly fine with a hidden handicap system, and it wouldn't be all that hard to implement since we have a fairly accurate MMR system. Sure you don't always get put into a match with people equally rated, but the system makes a pretty good prediction on who's actually going to win. It'd be feasible to change a damage output modifier on the team with the lower or higher MMR. Things might get a little complicated when teams have a mix of a really high rated ship and really low rated ship, but it should work out fine.


For Kamoba's case, there's no clear answer. It's actually something my clan runs into a lot. Do we go try hard and bring our best to this fight against some level 10's? Or do we go absolutely silly and have all harpoon squids? For us, we don't want to insult our opponents by bringing something stupid and still winning, but we don't want to grind them into paste either. There's a lot of little ways to handicap yourself without declaring it to the world and hurting feelings too severely. I won't bring a lame loadout to a competitive match anymore than I would to a serious pub match, but maybe I'll communicate less or bring a ship that's more difficult for my crew and myself.

[Kamoba]

I'd be perfectly fine with a hidden handicap system, and it wouldn't be all that hard to implement since we have a fairly accurate MMR system. Sure you don't always get put into a match with people equally rated, but the system makes a pretty good prediction on who's actually going to win. It'd be feasible to change a damage output modifier on the team with the lower or higher MMR. Things might get a little complicated when teams have a mix of a really high rated ship and really low rated ship, but it should work out fine.


For Kamoba's case, there's no clear answer. It's actually something my clan runs into a lot. Do we go try hard and bring our best to this fight against some level 10's? Or do we go absolutely silly and have all harpoon squids? For us, we don't want to insult our opponents by bringing something stupid and still winning, but we don't want to grind them into paste either. There's a lot of little ways to handicap yourself without declaring it to the world and hurting feelings too severely. I won't bring a lame loadout to a competitive match anymore than I would to a serious pub match, but maybe I'll communicate less or bring a ship that's more difficult for my crew and myself.

I think that's what many do, I know a lot of Gents who fly with me on a regular basis, who change their ammo to something less "meta" or "try hard" simply because although the less effective ammo, it is their preference or they prefer [insert reason here] about it.

The all gunners and all pilots is something that's done but I was mainly referring to it as an example.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Wouldn't such a system create an expectation of x team with higher levels to handicap themselves every time a newer opponent was present?

On top of that , how would the newer team feel if they win against handicapped opponents? Good? Insulted?

Why would it? Do you expect them to handicap themselves now by some means? Idk if new players are even aware they got stomp by terrible loadouts.. Is stomping them with a bad load out less insulting then using some other mechanic to level the field?

The point of making it player driven and not game driven - is people can decide when "they" want to use it. Hiding as suggested entirely maybe the best approach so only you know you had a harder time..  Because handicapping yourself is beneficial to you if you want more challenge when a match clearly isn't gonna give any..

Would you be upset if someone beat you while handicapped?

My point is that currently (to my knowledge) there is no expectation of any kind of handicapping. I've never come across a match where the enemy team told us to take all pilots cause "we're too pro." If you put the option there for all to see, then not opting to do it makes you just look like an ass, which is just going to cause tensions and solve nothing.

I'm not quite sure how you would hide it if it was an option as opposed to taking a "meh" load-out. A patch would come out saying "hey we added a secret handicap feature. If level discrepancies are too high, an option will come up for the higher leveled team to handicap themselves." Everyone knows it's there, and it sparks the potential for awkward "uh, did you guys hit that button?"

I expect no handicapping of any sort currently. Easy for me as a player to say now, but this hasn't changed since I started in beta. I wouldn't learn anything if we all weren't on a level playing field and my loss wasn't only due to my mistakes. I'd be busy trying to account for a handicap instead of figuring out that rushing in alone was getting me killed all the time. And in all honesty, even taking "meh" load-outs is confusing for new people who are looking at them, and if they lose, suddenly think that's what they should be doing. It's a poor example.

I'm not saying people can't have fun and take silly builds. That's on them, and we all do it cause we can. Personally, I have my load-outs and I play matches. There's zero thought into if I should be making it easier for my enemy because they appear new. I do not believe that such a system would help anyone. I do believe it would only rise tensions between new and old players.

[Arturo Sanchez]

This sounds like "I'm so much better than you that I have to gimp my ship for this to even be close, and I'll still win."

Players basically do this already, when competent teams bring silly ships or try to go all gunner/pilot. It may make the match a little closer, but it's also incredibly insulting to the other team.

/thread.

[Hilary Briss]

Yes many of us Veterans already handicap ourselves.

Such as taking 4 pilots etc or daft ship combinations and tool sets to a game and still winning..... What can we do?

Letting the opposition get the upper hand and then we have to claw our way back or throw the game all together.

When myself hears the word stacked lobby bandied at myself, it makes me want to weep. My loss tally is rather high mostly due to being with new players helping and teaching. But we do also like a challenge, which is not always possible in public lobbies due to player base. In addition it is not for the want of trying on many of our parts to get new players to stick around and enjoy the game.

Many of the comments already posted illustrate many of the ways we actively do handicap ourselves. But as previously mentioned it can appear to be insulting to others by taking all gunners, all X and still winning......

[Caprontos]

Yeah, its close to taunting the opponents.

There are allready ways to handicap oneself like mentioned.
To be honest, once Coop or Adventure mode punches the shelves in the face, then we may have more competent players. Like players that play coop, get accostumed to the game, then bring their known skills to pvp so we wont need to think too much about noobs and whatnot in pvp because they will know how to intereact around ships.

So there wont be a need for any kind of handicap whatsoever.

I disagree its taunting really.. and doubt new players would developed a negative stigma against it.. because I assume most people like having a chance to win in every match.. 

I don't think its a useful argument though weather or not the system would be useful vs overly stacked lobbies.. More things like, would it make it more fun for both teams.. or actually create more balance when there isn't any..


I do think bigger population would solve the issue regardless.. cause more people = bigger pool = over time less unfair matches, an so less issue..

I do hope co-op lets more enjoy the games gameplay more, and thus pour over to PVP when they are bored of shooting planes.. but we'll see when it actually happens, how it effects it..

My point is that currently (to my knowledge) there is no expectation of any kind of handicapping. I've never come across a match where the enemy team told us to take all pilots cause "we're too pro." If you put the option there for all to see, then not opting to do it makes you just look like an ass, which is just going to cause tensions and solve nothing.

I'm not quite sure how you would hide it if it was an option as opposed to taking a "meh" load-out. A patch would come out saying "hey we added a secret handicap feature. If level discrepancies are too high, an option will come up for the higher leveled team to handicap themselves." Everyone knows it's there, and it sparks the potential for awkward "uh, did you guys hit that button?"

I expect no handicapping of any sort currently. Easy for me as a player to say now, but this hasn't changed since I started in beta. I wouldn't learn anything if we all weren't on a level playing field and my loss wasn't only due to my mistakes. I'd be busy trying to account for a handicap instead of figuring out that rushing in alone was getting me killed all the time. And in all honesty, even taking "meh" load-outs is confusing for new people who are looking at them, and if they lose, suddenly think that's what they should be doing. It's a poor example.

I'm not saying people can't have fun and take silly builds. That's on them, and we all do it cause we can. Personally, I have my load-outs and I play matches. There's zero thought into if I should be making it easier for my enemy because they appear new. I do not believe that such a system would help anyone. I do believe it would only rise tensions between new and old players.

Is a fair point. An could be a potential issue depending how its addressed and used by people - or implemented.

I know I have played with newer people who are of a mind there meh loadout is good because they've seen it used well or work well.. when in reality it didn't work because it was a good loadout.. .

I wasn't thinking though it appearing when there is enough MMR discrepancy (because you'd have to base it on that and not levels..) but rather anyone past point X could opt to use it. But this could make it more useful as an opt in thing specifically for people who want to do it but not necessarily just given to everyone.. Since the average person I doubt would use it... and only people who captain a lot really even need it.. Though its less useful then the teacher program no doubt...

That said I don't think they would learn less over all then current stacked matches though from it.. because all they learn now is you can lose really fast. - no matter what you do..

The point of topic was just a random thought though and see opinions and if it was worth sending as a feedback idea directly to muse, I don't really want to argue to hard for it but felt obligated a little cause it was my random thought haha..

[HamsterIV]

The easiest way muse could cater to this would be to add more harpoon achievements and other achievements that require players to act outside the meta. Such as:
2 gunners on a ship
All pilot crew
Only using explosive weapons
Without bringing fire extinguisher/chem spray.

[RearAdmiralZill]

The point of topic was just a random thought though and see opinions and if it was worth sending as a feedback idea directly to muse, I don't really want to argue to hard for it but felt obligated a little cause it was my random thought haha..

By all means, you're free to defend your initial ideas. No harm there. In the end, these are all just opinions.

At this point, I don't even think a sudden population boom would "fix" the current "situation" that we have with old vs new players. All of those people would be new, and the current matchmaker would still match us with them from time to time. It would just be less frequent I suppose.

I see a lot of these threads floating around about how to help the new players, but I'm very disconnected by the idea that they need that much help. We all started from nothing, and enjoy Guns very much. It is very much a game outside of many "norms" out there in terms of co-op requirements, taking orders from potential strangers, etc. I figured this all out before tutorials, or novice mechanics.

And that isn't to belittle anyone of course. Can the game better convey these ideals of the game right out the gate? Sure. I think effort spent developing ways to let people know those ideals without guesswork is more worthwhile than trying to make things "easier."

[Kamoba]

Or as I've mentioned before if the game was marketed towards a different audience outside of FPS (Which Howard is looking at doing, yay \o/

[Arturo Sanchez]

The easiest way muse could cater to this would be to add more harpoon achievements and other achievements that require players to act outside the meta. Such as:
2 gunners on a ship
All pilot crew
Only using explosive weapons
Without bringing fire extinguisher/chem spray.

No. I just finished those nightmare achievements. Don't put me back in there.

[Richard LeMoon]

To the people saying to nerf the higher skills instead of buffing the lower, that makes no sense in the case of clans practicing. You need your ship and crew to perform exactly as they would in a competition. And you need your foe to be a real danger. That is why you give the less skilled team the buff.

/thread.

I think not. You don't get to call an end to a discussion you want no part in, and have nothing useful to add to. I am not making an attack, but so far your current strong opinions on new players have been:

-Don't let them play with me. (lock them in novice)

-Don't let them play the game modes I like. (lock them out of CP)

-Don't give them a hand's up. No other games do. Ever.

-Make leveling harder. (reduce achievement rewards)

-The only reason to play is to get good.

-If you can't get 'good', you should not be playing.

-Novice is like a dog pit. Anything that survives the mauling might be worthy of playing with me.

-Don't put in any ridiculous achievements. I will be compelled to have no fun getting them.

Really, it seems like you never want to see another player until they are a fully fledged MLG gamer. You can solve all these issues by just making custom games and inviting people that meet your approval. The rest of us will continue to ponder ideas on how to get more people into the game, have fun, and stay long enough to actually get into the swing of things.

If the restrictions you are asking for were in the game when I started, I would not be here now. I, along with most other players, are not interested in jumping through hoops of fire just for the right to play with the 'best'. I play to be entertained. Nothing more. Nothing less. Being able to offer less skilled players something extra would be helpful on multiple fronts. Any 'buffs' they get would gradually vanish as they got better, and would not be offered at all on similarly skilled teams.

Would it become something that was expected? Without a doubt. I see nothing wrong with that. Though, if it was set up properly, novices would never even know it existed. Teams that were clearly stacked would have no problem offering. Stacked matches would no longer start with a forlorn "GG" of inevitability. You could still bring your 'A' game, and have a much larger practice pool.

There is nothing wrong with giving a someone a head start, and it would not ruin the game. It might do well to dampen some of the elitism that is going around.