Author Topic: A short musing for open discussion: Radical thinking on levels.  (Read 28178 times)

Offline Ayetach

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I have played many, many, MANY matches in this wonderful game and one of the many things that has compelled me to progress in this game has been levels - at least thats what was one of my compelling elements from before. But now I've come to realize that having a numeric level system that everyone is ranked by publicly is an arguably counter-productive part of playing this game.

Lets look at some key arguments that can be made about this (and I absolutely encourage all of you to put in your own two cents [constructively] to this as I value hearing all the various points of view of this subject):

Levels identify skilled players, this is a absolutely a convenient measure I won't argue that, but it also creates a stigma among newer players too. Lets say we have some high level players collected on a team and a new low level character hops aboard. Not that this is always the case but frequently enough I have witnessed a dismissive and sometimes scornful attitude players have towards playing with these new players. Believe it or not I have seen and known enough players with alt accounts that half the time I'm never really sure if they really are new to the game, let alone knowledgeable enough to move ahead with their task. There are also many awesome players who pick up on what to do very quickly and I realize this is reasonably more frequent of a characteristic than many would believe.

Elitism. Well this is a grayer topic, but the sense that you are more superior to your fellow player just because you have a higher level seems silly - having a level system enumerating where we're at publicly is a sort of fuel to this kind of fire. I'm sure many have thoughts on this point but its one of those things that does exist among some players and it *can* be impairing for player to player interaction.

Skills. Just because I'm a level 45 in all areas does not mean I am a super ultra hyper awesome jack-of-all-trades player.  Yes, I do many of the roles reasonably well and I've played them frequently enough to earn the level numbers based on this new system - but I sure feel like there are many who can surpass my skills in many of these areas and to be recognized for this distinction is a bit misleading. The bottom line is that many of these level systems can be misleading us in thinking we are more than capable of what we actually handle at that stage of our understanding and play style. This can also be a factor of deterring players from facing one another when they review the levels each side has (I know Muse has made efforts in hiding that in lobbies but there are ways of getting around this and lets be honest, many of us do that to review the skills gap between sides).


The radical notion of removing this might seem completely outrageous to many but when you really think about how it plays into the game, its not a terribly bad notion really. I'll admit it is very unlikely this idea would ever see the day of light in a dev build buuuut the purpose of this is to discuss the topic frankly and think about the factors that weigh in on these kinds of implications.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 12:13:53 am by Ayetach »

Offline DJ Logicalia

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Re: A short musing for open discussion: Radical thinking on levels.
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2015, 01:04:38 am »
I'd be ok with this. The level system has gone through a pretty radical change during the past couple patches anyway, what's one more overhaul? I'm not married to the current level system, and if changing it could help the game in the long run, I'd be willing to give it a try

Offline Kamoba

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Re: A short musing for open discussion: Radical thinking on levels.
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2015, 02:32:55 am »
On the one hand I agree, but on the other side of the coin, it is also a good thing!
Especially when helping new players, very often new players pay attention because "omg level 45!"

Although I agree with your points there are many many reasons why the level system is a good thing....

But I am mostly agreed, I'd not cry if the level system was removed. :)

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: A short musing for open discussion: Radical thinking on levels.
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2015, 05:51:35 am »
It is pretty easy to farm achievements in a private game with a clan. It was easier back in the day, but still easy now. I don't really take anyone's level by any stock except for low, low, levels who obviously will need additional instruction. So I don't really pay any attention to high level of anything, but more on their fame or reputation in areas of the game.

Offline c-ponter

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Re: A short musing for open discussion: Radical thinking on levels.
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2015, 07:12:53 am »
Imo levels show experience more than skill, and as a general rule if somebody is high level in one class they are likely to do well in the others through understanding more than practice
EG I would like to think I am a pretty good gunner, but my lvl 22 gunner stat would tell a different story. I am not experienced as a gunner, but have still had practice with most guns playing as an engineer.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: A short musing for open discussion: Radical thinking on levels.
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2015, 07:54:08 am »
Yes but this can work both directions, due to the new leveling system being so fast paced, there are high level players who do not know as much as their "experience" or high levels should allow them to know... I've seen level 22's use default ammo as gungineers because they did not know how to load ammos...
A level 19 gunner who only used default ammo after claiming in the lobby "I only do gunner only because I am a good gunner." When asked to load his ammo his reply was (and I quote) "It does it automatically when I empty the gun you ****ing ****"
As you can imagine this individual soon got blocked and reported end of match.

My point is, yes levels can be a way to judge someone's experience but it is only a very brief marker...
I see no community benefits to the leveling system myself and only individual benefits from people feeling accomplished as they level up.

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: A short musing for open discussion: Radical thinking on levels.
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2015, 08:17:13 am »
That is absolutely correct. However, this is a game that needs constant fresh blood to survive. As much as we know that the leveling system is pointless, many casual and needy gamers need that sense of fulfillment and reward to feel valuable. They think they need a way to gauge their value, and they don't understand that it is by the success of the crew, not the individual.

Offline Lanliss

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Re: A short musing for open discussion: Radical thinking on levels.
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2015, 08:41:53 am »
What if, instead of or in addition to levels, you could see the number of commendations a player has? How much their fellow players enjoyed playing with them would be a great indication of whether or not they should be listened to. True enough, these could be farmed with friends, but I still think it would be a better indicator of skill or general fun-ness to be around than levels.

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: A short musing for open discussion: Radical thinking on levels.
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2015, 08:49:56 am »
I give everyone commendations whether they deserve them or not. Coupled with the fact that the vets and bigger clans tend to play more in-house (events, tournaments, etc) than against casuals, and that casuals probably see more of each other, I think you'd actually see more commendations on casuals, which wouldn't indicate much of anything. Honestly, I think commendations are about as pointless as levels.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: A short musing for open discussion: Radical thinking on levels.
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2015, 08:55:12 am »
I give everyone commendations whether they deserve them or not. Coupled with the fact that the vets and bigger clans tend to play more in-house (events, tournaments, etc) than against casuals, and that casuals probably see more of each other, I think you'd actually see more commendations on casuals, which wouldn't indicate much of anything. Honestly, I think commendations are about as pointless as levels.

This...

Also commendations are given out so freely, almost as if you'd be rude not to give one...

Offline Lanliss

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Re: A short musing for open discussion: Radical thinking on levels.
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2015, 09:09:25 am »
I actually only give commendations to people I had real, more than ordinary, fun with. Excuuuse me for using it how it was meant, princess.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: A short musing for open discussion: Radical thinking on levels.
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2015, 09:12:29 am »
I actually only give commendations to people I had real, more than ordinary, fun with. Excuuuse me for using it how it was meant, princess.

But as mentioned, even when used the it should be used... There is no way to check commendations gathered :(

Also, lol. 8)

Offline Lanliss

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Re: A short musing for open discussion: Radical thinking on levels.
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2015, 09:15:15 am »
Thank goodness. I was worried that joke would be missed, since it is text and not voice. Was so worried I would get in trouble, but still had to do it.

As for checking commendations, I do not think it would be too complicated to implement a way to keep track of them, although I could be wrong. I do not actually know the first thing about making or changing a game.

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: A short musing for open discussion: Radical thinking on levels.
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2015, 09:21:51 am »
I'm not really sure how to read into the context of that, but I just hand out commendations because it feels impolite not to, and it's a bit of mindless habit. But that's the point, it really is just an arbitrary thing.

Offline Lanliss

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Re: A short musing for open discussion: Radical thinking on levels.
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2015, 09:24:06 am »
The joke is the "well excuuse me, princess" gag in the old Legend of Zelda tv show.