A short musing for open discussion: Radical thinking on levels.

[MightyKeb]

My reasoning behind handing commendations to everyone is, well.


They helped me experience that match, had they not been there I couldnt have had the pleasure of playing the match. Only when a crewman or an ally sets us up for failure or simply frustrates me constantly in the match, I hold back from my commendation. Commendations may be pointless in theory, but if you hand them all out you make your crew feel valued for doing their job, thus encouraging them to do better.

[HamsterIV]

I remember when the levels were not numeric but were displayed as the title next to your name "Powder Monkey," "Roustabout," "Navigator," "Artillerist," ect. I would like to go back to that system perhaps with the option of letting the player select the title from all the ones they have earned thus far. That way if you want to walk about flashing your "Master Commander Elite" title you can, but you can also pretend to be a "Steerer" just to mess with people.

If anything should be used as a gauge of a player's ability it should be games played.

[MightyKeb]

I remember when the levels were not numeric but were displayed as the title next to your name "Powder Monkey," "Roustabout," "Navigator," "Artillerist," ect. I would like to go back to that system perhaps with the option of letting the player select the title from all the ones they have earned thus far. That way if you want to walk about flashing your "Master Commander Elite" title you can, but you can also pretend to be a "Steerer" just to mess with people.

If anything should be used as a gauge of a player's ability it should be games played.

Oh yes, perhaps this could be implemented with bounty badges too! So you can ACTUALLY show off that you're "not to be trifled with" +1

[Kamoba]

I remember when the levels were not numeric but were displayed as the title next to your name "Powder Monkey," "Roustabout," "Navigator," "Artillerist," ect. I would like to go back to that system perhaps with the option of letting the player select the title from all the ones they have earned thus far. That way if you want to walk about flashing your "Master Commander Elite" title you can, but you can also pretend to be a "Steerer" just to mess with people.

If anything should be used as a gauge of a player's ability it should be games played.

I like that actually, especially the select title part!

Spudnick wears default clothing I could imagine him donning Steerer title too!

[Ayetach]

I remember when the levels were not numeric but were displayed as the title next to your name "Powder Monkey," "Roustabout," "Navigator," "Artillerist," ect. I would like to go back to that system perhaps with the option of letting the player select the title from all the ones they have earned thus far. That way if you want to walk about flashing your "Master Commander Elite" title you can, but you can also pretend to be a "Steerer" just to mess with people.

If anything should be used as a gauge of a player's ability it should be games played.

That's a pretty intriguing idea actually. I like that!

[Thomas]

Remove levels?

But what about all the players and clans that spent hour after hour in the old system to grind out achievements and hit max level in all of their classes? You can't just toss out that badge of honor they gained to show how great of players they are at everything. How else are they going to show off their superiority?


With the irony of the thread out of the way, levels can be a bit of an issue. Players are judged by their level because it's the fastest method of judging a player's experience and relative skill. It's not always a good estimate, but it's generally pretty ok. If you replace that with match count, it's not going to change anything. Players with low match counts will still be the black sheep, and players with high match counts are going to flaunt it as much as players flaunt their levels now (ie: some players say 'listen to me, I'm a higher level' or something to that respect; others don't. It won't change anything.)

[Lanliss]

All of this could be removed all together. No way to tell someone's level, thus stopping the flaunting of them. If you want someone to retain a badge of honor you could have literal badges made for these players, something to remind them of the glory days, when the badges used to mean something. (you might have been making a joke, I don't know. I do know some people will worry about this.)

[Sarabelle Marlowe]

Hmm, this be a tricky topic.  I think most of you know my feelings on newer players (and for sake of the lobby, I wont say it all again and sing "why can't we be friends").

 To be perfectly blunt, I don't think removing levels or any way to tell will help because those that value elitism will still use any way they can to show off.

You'd have to take away badges, take away unique costumes, remove the ability to even look at a profile to see anything. And even then, it wouldn't work. They'll say what levels and accomplishments they have and why you better listen anyway.

And, if you notice, people are finding other ways to show someone is good at something. Be it showing games played, the number of commendations, only your title...it's still showing a form of rank.

Anything at all will still put a value on being good at something, even if that something is being polite. And some people will use that as a reason to listen to them then someone else. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, its just that when it come right down to it,  you can't make rules and settings to stop judgement. People will find ways. I mean, I've seen people get judged simply on the way their voice sounds. Removing levels isn't going to fix against that kind of mentality.

And honestly, having levels gives people something to shoot for. People will grind "I need level x before bed!" And giving away gifts and costumes and decals for it keeps people playing.

What we can do is foster a positive community and reach out for those that need to learn. Play by example. Actually, seeing discussions like this are a good thing, being it shows that the community cares.

[Lanliss]

I know this might spark a bit of a flame, but there is an easy solution to this. People need to stop using their levels as a reason people should listen to them. I think the best way would be to have more matches per game. This would allow a "test game" so to speak, allowing people to really see why they should listen to someone, instead of just needing to go on faith and a set of numbers, be it level or matches played. I understand that some people might have the reaction "I have levels, I will tell people what to do if I want. They should listen to me anyway because I am better than them." but please understand that I am just talking, and mean no offense.

[Omniraptor]

Yes, titles instead of levels would be really sweet, simultaneously more and less intimidating than numbers. And it would mesh well with old-fashioned analog feel of the game.

In the tf2 forums, I once saw a pyro was saying how they wear gibus for pubstomping. When a pub soldier sees pyro with gibus, he will be more agressive/careless than if he sees pyro with sweet hat, and the pyro gets easy reflects

[Kamoba]

Hmm, this be a tricky topic.  I think most of you know my feelings on newer players (and for sake of the lobby, I wont say it all again and sing "why can't we be friends").

 To be perfectly blunt, I don't think removing levels or any way to tell will help because those that value elitism will still use any way they can to show off.

You'd have to take away badges, take away unique costumes, remove the ability to even look at a profile to see anything. And even then, it wouldn't work. They'll say what levels and accomplishments they have and why you better listen anyway.

And, if you notice, people are finding other ways to show someone is good at something. Be it showing games played, the number of commendations, only your title...it's still showing a form of rank.

Anything at all will still put a value on being good at something, even if that something is being polite. And some people will use that as a reason to listen to them then someone else. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, its just that when it come right down to it,  you can't make rules and settings to stop judgement. People will find ways. I mean, I've seen people get judged simply on the way their voice sounds. Removing levels isn't going to fix against that kind of mentality.

And honestly, having levels gives people something to shoot for. People will grind "I need level x before bed!" And giving away gifts and costumes and decals for it keeps people playing.

What we can do is foster a positive community and reach out for those that need to learn. Play by example. Actually, seeing discussions like this are a good thing, being it shows that the community cares.

Sarabelle speaks much truth.

I know this might spark a bit of a flame, but there is an easy solution to this. People need to stop using their levels as a reason people should listen to them. I think the best way would be to have more matches per game. This would allow a "test game" so to speak, allowing people to really see why they should listen to someone, instead of just needing to go on faith and a set of numbers, be it level or matches played. I understand that some people might have the reaction "I have levels, I will tell people what to do if I want. They should listen to me anyway because I am better than them." but please understand that I am just talking, and mean no offense.

The test game idea, too much work for little reward and results, all that would happen is a one off match before people choose to go to crew form again because their ally was not what they wanted or all the other reasons, may as well leave the matches how they are and people will still do that same thing they do now anyway...

As for the comment on "I have levels, I will tell people what to do."
I have not seen this very often, I admit I have seen it, but that it normally after someone has been ridiculously stubborn or rude about something and the higher level (who normally is speaking sense) quotes levels while trying to explain why doing [insert something in-effective here] is not a good idea....

I'm not saying it does not happen, there are elitist players in this community, but I think the issue is more un-spoken and psychological than an issue of people flaunting their levels about..

[Arturo Sanchez]

the current lvling system is fine, but the rewards for achievements is far too high.

and it has a few major exploits that need to be patched out (goddamn buff exp grinders). Otherwise as is? The system is kinda decent (in concept).

Generally speaking though, the biggest measure of a player is usually match count/time spent as each class. A bit rudimentary but its the most solid type thus far.

Other types of player ability measurement are debatable in their merit.

[Kamoba]

the current lvling system is fine, but the rewards for achievements is far too high.

and it has a few major exploits that need to be patched out (goddamn buff exp grinders). Otherwise as is? The system is kinda decent (in concept).

Generally speaking though, the biggest measure of a player is usually match count/time spent as each class. A bit rudimentary but its the most solid type thus far.

Other types of player ability measurement are debatable in their merit.

I bolded the parts which I agree with

[Thomas]

Feels like this thread is taking a turn in the opposite direction of the original post. I believe the intentions were to discuss ways to reduce/eliminate discrimination against lower level players and potentially decrease elitism (which is where the irony came in) that is often experienced due to the level system. Low level players are blamed for everything, yelled at, and surprisingly often not allowed on ships of high level players.

By removing levels and replacing with matches/time played, you're not fixing a goat licking thing. If players are distinguished in any way from one another, be it levels, matches, title, or fancy hats; there's going to be the same discrimination and elitism.


Maybe if we had some kind of program where good role models in the community could act as such and play matches with lower leveled players, both helping build up their skill/level while helping show them that not all high level players are festering turds. This would let them be good players despite their lower level, and be more open to communication and advice.

Oh woe is me, if only such a thing existed, and if only those particular players would do the role they signed up for~

[Crafeksterty]

Would showing medals on the lobby screen as miniature smaller images work in some way to show experience?
Kinda sparks of calloduty here...


I mean, i myself dont have any special medals to show experience, didnt try hard enough to get any bounty medals
But future medals are bound, even coming from coop. I think medals is an alternate way of showing experience. Like. If a 45/45/45 player rather show his engineer skill supriority, he just adds in 3 medals hes most proud of that says more of him. Engineering, bounty, Tourney medal.