About the Minotaur

[Arturo Sanchez]

I'm not sure this weapon should be doing piercing damage.  It will almost invariably be aimed at a hull, where piercing is king of stripping armor.

It's already very good at its intended purpose of knocking around ships.  In a game like this where positioning is crucial, a weapon like this is already a force to be reckoned with.  To give it piercing damage as well just seems like overkill.

I think Muse once said there would never be a piercing heavy weapon. There was (and still is) talk about having it deal impact damage instead.

The amount of piercing per clip of heavy clip amounts to the same as 4 hades shots so it isn't much. I didn't check the shatter modifier but that probably contributes a chunk. Due to the long reload I haven't found the piercing much of an issue.

Does anyone know the reload?

Well after a discussion on this thing against my carro and your mino fish.

2 things were agreed on.

1. it made no sense to do piercing as its not piercing its knocking things about. that is impact. That mino hull break and terrain impact perma dmg was bollocks OP.

2. heavy clip mino is OP because of the high shatter. That gun worked like a long range carronade for component sniping and it ridiculously unfair when compared with the nature of other heavy guns. Its a freakin merc gun with crazy arc and an extra knockback effect. So we have agreed that thing needs less shatter dmg.

[BlackenedPies]

Well after a discussion on this thing against my carro and your mino fish.

2 things were agreed on.

1. it made no sense to do piercing as its not piercing its knocking things about. that is impact. That mino hull break and terrain impact perma dmg was bollocks OP.

2. heavy clip mino is OP because of the high shatter. That gun worked like a long range carronade for component sniping and it ridiculously unfair when compared with the nature of other heavy guns. Its a freakin merc gun with crazy arc and an extra knockback effect. So we have agreed that thing needs less shatter dmg.

But I like the shatter! It's even more powerful when buffed with heavy. We had double AI so it took my poor gunner 2 shots to disable your carro.

The piercing really isn't that much. It's equivalent to less than 4.5 hades every 15 seconds or so. When you're being shot burn kero/shine in increments to reduce movement.

From that match I learned that AI no longer target balloon with the light carronade, they're back to shooting components.

[MidnightWonko]

I said Impact/piercing. No shatter. A gun that can knock an enemy out of arc should not also be able to destroy engines to keep it that way. Also, I said a reasonable amount. Bringing it anywhere near Lumber or Hellhound levels is unreasonable.

By my calculations (and I could be off, 'cause they got crazy complicated), the Minotaur, with direct piercing and splash impact, would do a bit more DPS to the balloon than the Dragon Tongue, and just marginally less to the hull.  It would also do just slightly less damage than a Hades to the armor, yet have the bonus of never missing with Heavy Clip.  With those damage types reversed, its damage to the balloon and hull would be just a little less than a Hades, yet would outrank a Hades for armor damage.

Correct me if I'm wrong.  Seriously.  The calculations I made got pretty complicated, and the equation required arcane references, resulting in obfuscating any errors I may have made.  I'd love to have all the equations right before me from someone who was able to view it in a clear, understandable manner rather than the Da Vinci crap I've had to deal with.

[Richard LeMoon]

I don't know. I would not use the current numbers so did not bother to figure it out.

[Arturo Sanchez]

Well after a discussion on this thing against my carro and your mino fish.

2 things were agreed on.

1. it made no sense to do piercing as its not piercing its knocking things about. that is impact. That mino hull break and terrain impact perma dmg was bollocks OP.

2. heavy clip mino is OP because of the high shatter. That gun worked like a long range carronade for component sniping and it ridiculously unfair when compared with the nature of other heavy guns. Its a freakin merc gun with crazy arc and an extra knockback effect. So we have agreed that thing needs less shatter dmg.

But I like the shatter! It's even more powerful when buffed with heavy. We had double AI so it took my poor gunner 2 shots to disable your carro.

The piercing really isn't that much. It's equivalent to less than 4.5 hades every 15 seconds or so. When you're being shot burn kero/shine in increments to reduce movement.

From that match I learned that AI no longer target balloon with the light carronade, they're back to shooting components.

Let's put things into perspective.

Your 2 AI (who are always bad apparently) were winning a dps war against 2 vets on blender fish. And me, a pilot who had to spam that kero like its an addiction to even get a few lucky shots at your balloon or your gun.

As you systematically lowered my mobility from both my kero use and component sniping and my own gun was mostly out of range to even put up a fight unless I drove and tanked REALLY hard.

This aint no gat mortar man. This is just 1 gun fully controlling a situation.

Its not like a lumberjack balloon lock where you need actual skill to aim that thing at long range. Or a carronade balloon lock where you need to get fairly close.

This thing can do its thing at any given range with barely any difficulty in accuracy.


My suggestion is as follows-effect and dmg diminishes with distance. Increase the base output sure, so its pretty good point blank and ok mid range.


sorta like a reverse arming time.

[BlackenedPies]

I guess we found the new anti fish meta

I think you should've charged more. The only significant damage I was doing at range was the shatter. When you charged you were able to snipe out the balloon and taur (excellent shooting). Close range I didn't have much defense except knocking your arcs off temporarily. The reload is about 10 seconds. In arming time it does no shatter.

Often times you would come close just to back up out of arming range. You didn't really have to tank while charging, the only damage was shatter from the Minotaur and light carro (with AI not aiming at balloon). You should hold off on the gun rebuild (one hit away) until the mino reloads. If you used the flames I would be dead due to AI.

You only have to use kero when you're getting shot. There's about a second between shots so you can time it, you were likely burning too much. The problem seemed to be that you were usually in my optimal range and I was often able to use both guns. When you charged I had little defense and relied on piloting maneuvers and brief uses of the taur to temporarily push you off arc.

To sum up, hold off on the gun rebuild and don't stop charging.

[Kestril]

The ability to one shot any component with buff heavy is quite powerful. On a galleon it can be used as a long range disable weapon against other galleons.

Yeah. I was on the receiving end of that.

I think either the push or the disable should be nerfed. Probably the disable, because the pinpoint-accurate component sniping at 1800m is cray-z good.

[ZnC]

By my calculations (and I could be off, 'cause they got crazy complicated), the Minotaur, with direct piercing and splash impact, would do a bit more DPS to the balloon than the Dragon Tongue, and just marginally less to the hull.  It would also do just slightly less damage than a Hades to the armor, yet have the bonus of never missing with Heavy Clip.  With those damage types reversed, its damage to the balloon and hull would be just a little less than a Hades, yet would outrank a Hades for armor damage.

You seem keen to learn so I'll see what I can do.

After doing my own calculations, I have to ask how much damage are you using for the Impact AoE? If we change the secondary from Shatter to Impact, it would be rebalanced (i.e. definitely not 175 damage). Impact damage type is rare and has the best, all-rounded damage modifiers. The damage output is simply ridiculous to everything besides components.

Following the argument from Richard LeMoon, I see the core problem. What he is asking for is simply a small amount of Flechette damage, not Impact. There is a misconception that Impact would do better against Balloon as compared to Armor. Balloons have 1200hp and is designed to go down fast when targeted. That is why Flechette based weapons naturally have high damage. Impact damage type is very difficult to balance without being too strong against armor/hull.
However, because the Minotaur is so all-rounded, I don't think any of it would make it weaker than the current Shatter type, unless the damage is negligible.

[Arturo Sanchez]

I guess we found the new anti fish meta

I think you should've charged more. The only significant damage I was doing at range was the shatter. When you charged you were able to snipe out the balloon and taur (excellent shooting). Close range I didn't have much defense except knocking your arcs off temporarily. The reload is about 10 seconds. In arming time it does no shatter.

Often times you would come close just to back up out of arming range. You didn't really have to tank while charging, the only damage was shatter from the Minotaur and light carro (with AI not aiming at balloon). You should hold off on the gun rebuild (one hit away) until the mino reloads. If you used the flames I would be dead due to AI.

You only have to use kero when you're getting shot. There's about a second between shots so you can time it, you were likely burning too much. The problem seemed to be that you were usually in my optimal range and I was often able to use both guns. When you charged I had little defense and relied on piloting maneuvers and brief uses of the taur to temporarily push you off arc.

To sum up, hold off on the gun rebuild and don't stop charging.

You think I wasnt charging as hard as I could? You were blowing up my engines directly and indirectly and then shooting my guns and then keeping me kissing a nearby wall.

I was actually only able to kill you, by directly facing you in front because any slight angle and I go swerving a full 90. It had to be near perfectly straight on.

And you are aware a full second isn't enough to get back on arc right? It takes 2 seconds to do it with claw. A near 4-5 to do it reverse turning.

6 on neutral.

10 on forward throttle.

[BlackenedPies]

You think I wasnt charging as hard as I could? You were blowing up my engines directly and indirectly and then shooting my guns and then keeping me kissing a nearby wall.

I was actually only able to kill you, by directly facing you in front because any slight angle and I go swerving a full 90. It had to be near perfectly straight on.

And you are aware a full second isn't enough to get back on arc right? It takes 2 seconds to do it with claw. A near 4-5 to do it reverse turning.

6 on neutral.

10 on forward throttle.

You would have won every engagement when you got near, the problem was you didn't follow up. I was able to keep using hydro and burning to reposition. You should've won every close range engagement. Another problem was trying to run and not constantly pressing the attack. This allowed my gunner to disable your main and us to engage with both guns.

If you tried again it would end up a lot differently. "Peach" your front gun and never stop charging.

[Arturo Sanchez]

You think I wasnt charging as hard as I could? You were blowing up my engines directly and indirectly and then shooting my guns and then keeping me kissing a nearby wall.

I was actually only able to kill you, by directly facing you in front because any slight angle and I go swerving a full 90. It had to be near perfectly straight on.

And you are aware a full second isn't enough to get back on arc right? It takes 2 seconds to do it with claw. A near 4-5 to do it reverse turning.

6 on neutral.

10 on forward throttle.

You would have won every engagement when you got near, the problem was you didn't follow up. I was able to keep using hydro and burning to reposition. You should've won every close range engagement. Another problem was trying to run and not constantly pressing the attack. This allowed my gunner to disable your main and us to engage with both guns.

If you tried again it would end up a lot differently. "Peach" your front gun and never stop charging.

I was being slammed into a wall. I had two choices. Die or get out of arc for a sec to reposition myself. If i continued to go in hard while being slammed into said wall. I'd just be giving you arc to slam me back into the wall.

I had to follow the momentum you were forcing me into to put my ship into a position where it was straight to that mino. If It wasn't I'd be locked in that side ways view kissing wall until I died. This was the first death. You think I'd be dumb enough to just repeat the same obviously flawed counter measure?

And I charged every second and angle I could reach where your gun was out of arc. Some balloon shots and few disables on your gun then you take your time turning to blast me out of arc.

If you think charging is turning with full throttle on, then that's a silly suggestion. I only countered your gun by reversing turning or neutral turning to straight out face you despite your gun dissuading me to.
And then keroing hard to maintain that straight arc and charged in which lasts a good two or 3 carro shots at best, before being arc locked again and probably being smashed into a wall for my trouble.


What you are suggesting isn't as simple as you say it is. Simply "trying again" takes a full 30 seconds of kero (while being pounded) and crazy accurate carro shots disabling your gun. While at the same time hull, and gun and engines have to be maintained.

[BlackenedPies]

Well I guess that settles it. Taur + side carro hardcounters blender fish.

You were still able to get close and above multiple times. A blender fish's second most important weapon is the ram.

[Arturo Sanchez]

Well I guess that settles it. Taur + side carro hardcounters blender fish.

And a hwacha fish
and a lumber fish
and a  flak spire
and galleon
and a junker
and a pyra double merc

pretty much anything that needs a steady arc and has a reload time. You;d think a metamidion or carro flame squid or a blender fish can go against it with their arcs and strong forward momentum. Nope. apparently not. Especially with that disabling ability at the ranges it does it.

You can't just simply say thats that.

[Lanliss]

What is the accuracy like on mino? Maybe a little spread could be added, so that it is not a sniper? I do not currently know if it is a sniper, just a suggestion.

[Richard LeMoon]

The spread is abysmal, like hwacha. Like hwacha, it vanishes with Heavy clip. Therein lies the problem.