Guns Of Icarus Online

Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Byron Cavendish on February 24, 2015, 08:58:59 am

Title: About the Minotaur
Post by: Byron Cavendish on February 24, 2015, 08:58:59 am
The gun is great in concept, but I have some concerns with it's current design. It's unique ability to push or move ships is interesting, but the harpoon is interesting, the mine launcher is interesting. I'm worried that it doesn't have enough 'bite'.

I've heard it mentioned by the devs on the dev stream that the minotaur has to be a support only weapon. The largest issue with that design philosophy is that it is a heavy weapon. There are only three ships that can use a heavy weapon, and they all put a lot of emphasis on kill power and survivability on that weapon. The goldfish relies almost completely on it's main gun to do anything productive, and the spire is far too squishy to afford a gun that won't kill or disable fast. I don't see any competitive or serious team wasting time by putting the minotaur on a spire or goldfish. I've even heard the minotaur fish used as an example in the dev chat. Sorry Eric, but that isn't ever going to be used. So, the inherent issue is that you're really limiting this gun to the only ship that can afford it, a tanky ship like the galleon that can experiment with four heavy slots to use. That seems really niche for a gun and disappointing.

I foresee the minotaur going the way of the flakfish. Being too situational to be used seriously or competitively, and only taken accidentally by new players (to the groans and dismay of any wiser gunner) or for when competitive players want to play drunk GOIO and have a laugh. Sounds like a waste to me, just to be used on a galleon. Please, think about changing it so that it has more versatility or more 'bite'.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Kamoba on February 24, 2015, 10:11:55 am
Not every weapon is meant to be standalone, and the arcs on this gun make it very useful!
This weapon will dominate on maps littered with obstacles.

Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Byron Cavendish on February 24, 2015, 10:16:47 am
I agree that not every gun has to be 'stand alone'. However, it has to provide enough impact, in fact more so, to justify it being taken over three other strong heavy guns. The issue it has, is that it can't. Sure it'll be niche on Paritan, but that's it.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: GeoRmr on February 24, 2015, 10:54:28 am
Trust me,

It's op as hell and needs a nerf.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Mean Machine on February 24, 2015, 11:12:16 am
The gun is op and i don't think it needs any explaining, i hope it doesn't.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Duveer on February 24, 2015, 11:31:20 am
I'm a bit surprised at how long it seems to take to break a target dummy's hull - nine hits with heavy clip, and that's on a target that doesn't repair at all.  Still, I really want to drag one of my usual groupmates on board the galleon and see how it cooperates with a harpoon shot.  That ought to cause some...interesting physics.  And double heavy Minotaur plus top-mounted flak cannon will probably be a pretty brutal kill-side, especially since the Mino negates the arming time problems by simply sending anyone who gets too close spinning off over the horizon.  If anything's overpowered on this gun, it's the physics effects.

Anyway, I can see it working out alright on pretty much any Spire, and it pretty much is built for the Galleon (seriously, it's got side arcs and inclination that can probably hit someone behind you - so much for the classic blind spots!), but the 'fish pretty much needs to combo it with terrain to kill.  For a Goldfish, I pretty much consider it a long-distance ram that you can follow up with the traditional sort when they slam into a mountain, which is useful but maybe not optimal.  Of course, this is all theoretical stuff based on my trial runs in the offline practice mode, so I could be completely wrong about its role against a live and vaguely competent crew.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Kamoba on February 24, 2015, 12:10:37 pm
In the dev app, spire minotaur was able to keep my.pyra blind sided and hades-terrain killed, easily. This was when stamina was still in the test andno amount of stamina and tools were able to.help.us, hydro'd up, spire went up and pushed us down and side ways, claw and stamina turn followed by kero forwards to avoid being spun again, no arcs on guns for long enough to kill.
Galleon double mino, was just insane, great fun!

The gun is not designed to "kill" nor is it stand-alone, it is a gun intended to disrupt the enemies gun arcs and control engagements.
Not a "Yeah pew pew die motha's!" Gun like the flak of old...
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 24, 2015, 12:12:11 pm
It needs some balancing. I do like that it doesn't benefit much from a buff engi. Like all heavy weapons your best bet is to disable it, but this is damn near impossible when it's shooting you. Using kero or shine will bump you less.

I say limit the vertical arcs and it's balanced enough. Right now it's just silly.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: ZnC on February 24, 2015, 12:24:55 pm
As someone who studies the game a lot, I really like the new gun. It has a very elegant balance of knockback effect, piercing and disable. I want to see how players start using it before making any conclusions.

@BlackenedPies A buff on the gun enables it to 1-hit heavy weapons and gives a good amount of piercing damage.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 24, 2015, 12:44:18 pm
As someone who studies the game a lot, I really like the new gun. It has a very elegant balance of knockback effect, piercing and disable. I want to see how players start using it before making any conclusions.

@BlackenedPies A buff on the gun enables it to 1-hit heavy weapons and gives a good amount of piercing damage.

Hmm I'll have to try that. I did find greased very useful, partially due to the arming range.

The problem is that I've seen it completely lock down ships on its own. The downward arc is too much because you can keep them mashed into the ground. And once they're locked to a rock/building they're dead.

I need to test it more but from what I've seen it needs some work
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Thomas on February 24, 2015, 01:41:47 pm
Did you just put the mine launcher in the same category as the harpoon? Because I have some gunners that would like to meet you. =P


For the minotaur, it's not all that effective on the goldfish. Sure it's fun, but you're going to have tough time killing anyone (at least right now, someone might come up with something). For galleon and spire, it's pretty impressive. I really want to see how it does over time on the spire (although at the same time I'd love to see the spire crews use other weapons more effectively).

A lot of people are going to be using it non-stop for a while, so give it a week or two before we start to see how it actually effects the game. Players need to learn how to use it, and how to play against it.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Kamoba on February 24, 2015, 01:50:24 pm
Did you just put the mine launcher in the same category as the harpoon? Because I have some gunners that would like to meet you. =P


For the minotaur, it's not all that effective on the goldfish. Sure it's fun, but you're going to have tough time killing anyone (at least right now, someone might come up with something). For galleon and spire, it's pretty impressive. I really want to see how it does over time on the spire (although at the same time I'd love to see the spire crews use other weapons more effectively).

A lot of people are going to be using it non-stop for a while, so give it a week or two before we start to see how it actually effects the game. Players need to learn how to use it, and how to play against it.

Take my salute sir. You're right, new toy will be used at great length.

Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: PiggyPiggyYaya on February 24, 2015, 04:21:04 pm
I just played a 4v4 match against 2 galleons with minataurs both on broad side. I can tell you right now it's op. Once the blast hits you, your ship instanly comes in to a crawl while trying to get away and throws you ofcourse at least 45 degrees in either direction. Your enertia is also gone and you would have to build up your speed back up again.  It also does a lot of piercing damage so while they barrage you your armour goes down.

As for range; lets just say it's really far and it is also effective at close range. It's reload time seems fast too because it seems I just getting shot at every 1.5 seconds with no break. Not only that I tried to engage it up high to see if I can get off it's angle. Nope, it has a pretty sharp angle of attacks in every direction.

The whole game I felt like a pinball bouncing from every direction. The score in the end was 12-0.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on February 24, 2015, 05:01:40 pm
It wouldn't have been OP or in a silly support role had it been the Sky Torpedo many of us wanted...just saying ;D

The gun doesn't need a nerf, ships need to be able to move faster and pilots need to not be stupid. If you approach the broadside of a Minolleon, what do you think is going to happen? Sheesh, I swear since the game has gotten slower and slower in gameplay, pilots have gotten stupider and stupider. You get used to charging broadsides because HF and LJ can't do squat. Only real worry is Hwacha and carro but usually you shoot out the gun mounts before they can do harm. Now you've got this gun and are all of a sudden crying OP...HA!

Results of 2 yrs of all you people crying to nerf this, nerf that. Now you've got a gun that requires you to be tactical and you can't handle it. Part because your ships are all nerfed to hell. Ha ha ha ha ha!
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Mysterious Medic on February 24, 2015, 05:17:39 pm
Quote
You get used to charging broadsides because HF and LJ can't do squat.
lol. Just because your gunners can't hit doesn't mean two of the most damaging guns in the game are useless. A metagalleon with a hades,lj, and flak with good gunners will mess up just about any ship and I don't think many people would refute that. From what I remember from the dev app (haven't played the recent patch yet) the minotaur was realllly easy to shoot and had a bit of range. Make it a bit harder to shoot with slower projectile speed perhaps (not too much though) and voila people actually have to learn how to shoot another gun for effectiveness.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 24, 2015, 05:50:06 pm
The gun doesn't need a nerf, ships need to be able to move faster and pilots need to not be stupid. If you approach the broadside of a Minolleon, what do you think is going to happen? Sheesh, I swear since the game has gotten slower and slower in gameplay, pilots have gotten stupider and stupider. You get used to charging broadsides because HF and LJ can't do squat. Only real worry is Hwacha and carro but usually you shoot out the gun mounts before they can do harm. Now you've got this gun and are all of a sudden crying OP...HA!

The Minotaur has a range of 1800m and 45 degree arcs all around. It has a high projectile speed, and as far as I can tell no drop.

I've been using spanner mallet buff heavy on a spire and it's been a very effective sniper weapon. One shot buffed heavy breaks any component. It prevents ships from getting shots on you.

I like the Minotaur, but the arcs are a bit much.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: ZnC on February 24, 2015, 06:18:27 pm
The Minotaur has a range of 1800m and 45 degree arcs all around. It has a high projectile speed, and as far as I can tell no drop.

I like the Minotaur, but the arcs are a bit much.

The arcs are really the only complaint I have about this weapon so far. All the previous heavy weapons are characteristic in being very limited in arcs, however the Minotaur seems to have one of the best, if not the very best arcs of all weapons.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: MightyKeb on February 24, 2015, 06:43:41 pm
The Minotaur has a range of 1800m and 45 degree arcs all around. It has a high projectile speed, and as far as I can tell no drop.

I like the Minotaur, but the arcs are a bit much.

The arcs are really the only complaint I have about this weapon so far. All the previous heavy weapons are characteristic in being very limited in arcs, however the Minotaur seems to have one of the best, if not the very best arcs of all weapons.

It DOES have the widest heavy gun arcs in the game, even bigger than the flak, which has 30 degrees all around but not only does it need it for leading projectiles at ranges but its also balanced by the fact that it cant do much to you until your hull armor is down

Meanwhile, minatour effectively counters blenderfishes. A galleon could get the smallest gap of opportunity to get it's guns in arc, and you'd just be spinning around crazy while it recovered from the pop and rose back up to blast you into the next tuesday.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: DrTentacles on February 24, 2015, 06:46:01 pm
I admit, when I used it in dev app, I did not expect it to be this power. It seem to single-handedly counter a number of builds. I'd like to suggest longer reload time, still less than a hwatcha, but enough to give a chance to get guns in arc. It should serve to set up a possible kill, not loch a ship from mid to close-range on it's own.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Dutch Vanya on February 24, 2015, 07:54:45 pm
it's very very good. But as others have said, lets give it more than 24 hours before crying OP so we can see how it ends up being used. It wouldn't be in true Muse fashion if they didn't make it OP first and then nerf it into the ground. Hopefully this time will be more reasonable.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Lanliss on February 24, 2015, 08:43:13 pm
I just imagine it being a race, to be first to get mino in arc, thus stopping anyone else from using the mino. I also imagine a galleon floating through a 4v4 battlefield, smacking everyone around with quad mino, probably while the whole crew is listening to something ridiculously peaceful. Like the rites of spring(might have that name wrong) or in the other direction, Yakety Sax
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Indreams on February 24, 2015, 08:56:50 pm
I just imagine it being a race, to be first to get mino in arc, thus stopping anyone else from using the mino. I also imagine a galleon floating through a 4v4 battlefield, smacking everyone around with quad mino, probably while the whole crew is listening to something ridiculously peaceful. Like the rites of spring(might have that name wrong) or in the other direction, Yakety Sax

From my limited experience so far, it is hard to knock enemy mino out of arc. Mino has some ridiculous arcs.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Richard LeMoon on February 24, 2015, 10:25:10 pm
I think damage needs to be changed to a reasonable amount of primary Impact and secondary Piercing. If you are going to introduce a new gun with new mechanics, then use new damage types. Especially ones that make more sense. As it is, it performs pretty poorly on a Goldfish.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: ShadedExalt on February 24, 2015, 10:36:41 pm
I just imagine it being a race, to be first to get mino in arc, thus stopping anyone else from using the mino. I also imagine a galleon floating through a 4v4 battlefield, smacking everyone around with quad mino, probably while the whole crew is listening to something ridiculously peaceful. Like the rites of spring(might have that name wrong) or in the other direction, Yakety Sax

I am doing this.

I am a Bard, and therefore it would be utter blasphemy not to.

You should be a Bard.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: DJ Logicalia on February 24, 2015, 10:47:11 pm
I'm totally putting this on repeat whilst flying my Spirotaur

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHmskwqCCQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHmskwqCCQ)
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Indreams on February 25, 2015, 12:04:59 am
I'm totally putting this on repeat whilst flying my Spirotaur

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHmskwqCCQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHmskwqCCQ)
I'll personally play that on my Euphonium while we fly.  :P
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: ShadedExalt on February 25, 2015, 12:13:24 am
I'm totally putting this on repeat whilst flying my Spirotaur

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHmskwqCCQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHmskwqCCQ)
I'll personally play that on my Euphonium while we fly.  :P

Can I join?  I can crew or bring a Bulleon...
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Crafeksterty on February 25, 2015, 12:24:38 am
In the spires case, the weapon makes the spire able to fight long range or medium range weapons like the hades which was difficult before.

Whenever i play now and someone tries to counter the spire, you cant. Muse just made me feel unstoppable XD
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Byron Cavendish on February 25, 2015, 12:32:44 am
I actually watched my clanmate 2v1 an adequate squid and pyra today, my mind is reversed with the spire. Still shit with the goldie though.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Yiski on February 25, 2015, 01:17:00 am
Zill and I ran a few matches with the gun on his galleon. Had the gun on the 1 slot in the ship loadout.

I had a blast with the gun. The damage might seem low, but upping the damage would defeat the point of bringing it which is of course to throw off an enemy charge or barrage. While I did find the reload and fire rate slow and long, making it any bit faster would make this gun too good for it's main purpose.

However, I do see some concerns, the range can probably be nerfed a bit because it's insane to think it can hit at 1800m reliably with heavy clip. Note the range is a little over a 100m more than either lumberjack or heavy flak. Those guns have decent shell travel times and shell arcs. The minotaur is raycast and all you have to do are load heavy and figure out proper leads. I'd say give the gun range something short of hwachas.

Another concern is the potency of the gun's effect. My last match of the evening, I was able to save us from a charging gat/flak pyra by turning it 180 degrees allowing the engi to keep a fragment of hull armor and a strand of our remaining health. It took two shots to accomplish. Even one shot during my other matches could cause enough trouble.

My final concern is the gun's arc. I believe the arc needs to be nerfed too. They're 45 degrees in all directions. While I can assume those arcs were given because it gives the gunner greater freedom to aim the shots more precise to allow for maximum effect, I found it far too easy to throw off ships.

TL;DR = Love gun, but needs some nerfs.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 25, 2015, 01:36:06 am
I think it's too easy to shoot. Add drop or decrease speed (or nerf arcs) and I think it would be pretty balanced.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: MidnightWonko on February 25, 2015, 01:54:48 am
I'm not sure this weapon should be doing piercing damage.  It will almost invariably be aimed at a hull, where piercing is king of stripping armor.

It's already very good at its intended purpose of knocking around ships.  In a game like this where positioning is crucial, a weapon like this is already a force to be reckoned with.  To give it piercing damage as well just seems like overkill.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 25, 2015, 02:07:26 am
I'm not sure this weapon should be doing piercing damage.  It will almost invariably be aimed at a hull, where piercing is king of stripping armor.

It's already very good at its intended purpose of knocking around ships.  In a game like this where positioning is crucial, a weapon like this is already a force to be reckoned with.  To give it piercing damage as well just seems like overkill.

I think Muse once said there would never be a piercing heavy weapon. There was (and still is) talk about having it deal impact damage instead.

The amount of piercing per clip of heavy clip amounts to the same as 4 hades shots so it isn't much. I didn't check the shatter modifier but that probably contributes a chunk. Due to the long reload I haven't found the piercing much of an issue.

Does anyone know the reload?
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Omniraptor on February 25, 2015, 02:26:13 am
The gun is way too long-range, nerfing range to 800m or less should be hotfix priority IMO. It makes long-range fights even more boring, because it prolongs the engagement without causing much permanent damage.

I think further along we should tweak the physics to make a sharper rampup of knockback depending on hit location. Increase reward for shots that hit the very edge of a ship (takes more skill smaller target) and punish shots that hit the center of a ship with less knockback. Another idea would be to buff impact bumpers, they're kinda useless right now and it might be good opportunity to help end minotaur reign of terror.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Sarabelle Marlowe on February 25, 2015, 02:35:12 am
From what I have seen, it would not make any sense for it to be a small gun. The concept in itself makes it so to have that much force it would have to be a very large piece of artillery to begin with. Beyond that, it makes anyone flying a long ship cry. I spent several games giggling as I made mobbys and junkers spin like tops. I think while it may be a niche gun, paired correctly it can make a very helpful and scary ship. So far I've seen the best use with it is on a galleon. While it's a pain when paired with a flak if whomever shooting doesn't wait for the flak first, it did rather well being we pushed the other ships about so much we could dominate the sky. I'd say the best pairing I tried so far was with the hwatcha. Between disable, push and heavy clip range it worked wonderfully as a disable side on the ship.  Seen both good and bad examples on Spires, and to be honest it's rubbish on a goldfish from what I've seen so far.

One of its few weaknesses is that it has a decent reload time. If it were a smaller gun, people would put 3 on the side of a junker and chain spin, which would be insanely hard to counter at all. Pretty much a grief engine. Where as having it be a large gun makes people have to decide and choose if they want damage or not.  While it can pick parts...there are other guns that do too and in my opinion, do it better. And too many Minotaurs means far far less damage to dish out on the ships that can have it.

I would say the arcs and range are rather silly. Its very smooth and very easy to learn compared to some of the other heavy guns. I agree it might do with some nerfing, perhaps on the range or arcs itself. For something that massive it should feel more like its that massive. Right now I feel it handles far too smoothly.

So far though, I find it an interesting and fun addition. I am curious to see what will become of it.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: MidnightWonko on February 25, 2015, 03:21:29 am
I'm not sure this weapon should be doing piercing damage.  It will almost invariably be aimed at a hull, where piercing is king of stripping armor.

It's already very good at its intended purpose of knocking around ships.  In a game like this where positioning is crucial, a weapon like this is already a force to be reckoned with.  To give it piercing damage as well just seems like overkill.

I think Muse once said there would never be a piercing heavy weapon. There was (and still is) talk about having it deal impact damage instead.

The amount of piercing per clip of heavy clip amounts to the same as 4 hades shots so it isn't much. I didn't check the shatter modifier but that probably contributes a chunk. Due to the long reload I haven't found the piercing much of an issue.

Does anyone know the reload?

Making it do impact damage could potentially be just as bad; impact does 80% extra balloon damage, and the balloon is the largest target on most ships.

Explosive might be more balanced, as it does almost no damage to anything except the permahull.

The gun is way too long-range, nerfing range to 800m or less should be hotfix priority IMO.

I had considered that as a possible balance as well.

Another idea might be to make it a projectile weapon instead of a hitscan weapon to require the gunner to lead his targets.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: GeoRmr on February 25, 2015, 05:10:31 am
More arming-time, Reduced range (similar to banshee), Slightly less shatter damage, Smaller arcs, Slightly reduced rate of fire.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 25, 2015, 09:49:42 am
If you have suggestions your best bet is to email feedback@musegames.com
I highly recommend doing so because Muse actually reads them.

I like the idea of making bumpers useful.

Right now it's basically a Gauss gun. In fact I think I'll start calling it that in game because I don't really like calling it the Mino.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: ShadedExalt on February 25, 2015, 10:54:27 am
I've decided to call it the 'Taur.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Richard LeMoon on February 25, 2015, 12:11:14 pm
I'm not sure this weapon should be doing piercing damage.  It will almost invariably be aimed at a hull, where piercing is king of stripping armor.

Actually, a good gunner will be aiming this primarily at the balloon, which is why it should do a reasonable amount of Impact damage. As it is now, the balloon just giggles as you shoot it.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 25, 2015, 12:45:38 pm
I've decided to call it the 'Taur.

That works a lot better. I've been saying "tar" but it's pronounced "tor".
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: MightyKeb on February 25, 2015, 02:25:28 pm
I've decided to call it the 'Taur.

That works a lot better. I've been saying "tar" but it's pronounced "tor".

And if the tar ammo becomes a thing....



"Loadin' Tar in Taur"

"You cant combine gasses!"
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: MidnightWonko on February 25, 2015, 04:23:57 pm
I'm not sure this weapon should be doing piercing damage.  It will almost invariably be aimed at a hull, where piercing is king of stripping armor.

Actually, a good gunner will be aiming this primarily at the balloon, which is why it should do a reasonable amount of Impact damage. As it is now, the balloon just giggles as you shoot it.
Interestingly enough, I believe it should never do impact damage for PRECISELY the same reason!  This weapon is already powerful enough at controlling with its knockback and its shatter vs components.  Changing piercing to impact would make this weapon far and beyond more practical than the Hellhound and the Lumberjack combined!
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Richard LeMoon on February 25, 2015, 06:18:46 pm
I said Impact/piercing. No shatter. A gun that can knock an enemy out of arc should not also be able to destroy engines to keep it that way. Also, I said a reasonable amount. Bringing it anywhere near Lumber or Hellhound levels is unreasonable.

Still, this gun has no light gun to pair up with as it is. On a Goldfish, you have to rely on your ally completely. You can barely damage hull, and have a small chance of breaking a gun or engine. What then? Without an ally, nothing.

The only reason it works on a Spire or Galleon is because you have other guns to rely on. Both still need a piercing in the main light gun position. Both still need an explosive followup. That is THREE guns minimum on the same target to make this thing worth taking.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 25, 2015, 06:41:35 pm
I've had success with a bifecta on a fish, which is required to make it "work". It's probably not very optimal but it can be fun.

Against other fish I've used spanner mallet buff heavy with a side heavy clip light carro. A good gunner can prevent arcs and disable the other heavy gun. The side carro has an easy arc and the goal is to push/drop them into terrain.

The ability to one shot any component with buff heavy is quite powerful. On a galleon it can be used as a long range disable weapon against other galleons.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on February 25, 2015, 08:52:16 pm
I'm not sure this weapon should be doing piercing damage.  It will almost invariably be aimed at a hull, where piercing is king of stripping armor.

It's already very good at its intended purpose of knocking around ships.  In a game like this where positioning is crucial, a weapon like this is already a force to be reckoned with.  To give it piercing damage as well just seems like overkill.

I think Muse once said there would never be a piercing heavy weapon. There was (and still is) talk about having it deal impact damage instead.

The amount of piercing per clip of heavy clip amounts to the same as 4 hades shots so it isn't much. I didn't check the shatter modifier but that probably contributes a chunk. Due to the long reload I haven't found the piercing much of an issue.

Does anyone know the reload?

Well after a discussion on this thing against my carro and your mino fish.

2 things were agreed on.

1. it made no sense to do piercing as its not piercing its knocking things about. that is impact. That mino hull break and terrain impact perma dmg was bollocks OP.

2. heavy clip mino is OP because of the high shatter. That gun worked like a long range carronade for component sniping and it ridiculously unfair when compared with the nature of other heavy guns. Its a freakin merc gun with crazy arc and an extra knockback effect. So we have agreed that thing needs less shatter dmg.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 25, 2015, 09:05:58 pm

Well after a discussion on this thing against my carro and your mino fish.

2 things were agreed on.

1. it made no sense to do piercing as its not piercing its knocking things about. that is impact. That mino hull break and terrain impact perma dmg was bollocks OP.

2. heavy clip mino is OP because of the high shatter. That gun worked like a long range carronade for component sniping and it ridiculously unfair when compared with the nature of other heavy guns. Its a freakin merc gun with crazy arc and an extra knockback effect. So we have agreed that thing needs less shatter dmg.

But I like the shatter! It's even more powerful when buffed with heavy. We had double AI so it took my poor gunner 2 shots to disable your carro.

The piercing really isn't that much. It's equivalent to less than 4.5 hades every 15 seconds or so. When you're being shot burn kero/shine in increments to reduce movement.

From that match I learned that AI no longer target balloon with the light carronade, they're back to shooting components.

(http://i.imgur.com/UUe9jGg.jpg)
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: MidnightWonko on February 26, 2015, 12:01:36 am
I said Impact/piercing. No shatter. A gun that can knock an enemy out of arc should not also be able to destroy engines to keep it that way. Also, I said a reasonable amount. Bringing it anywhere near Lumber or Hellhound levels is unreasonable.

By my calculations (and I could be off, 'cause they got crazy complicated), the Minotaur, with direct piercing and splash impact, would do a bit more DPS to the balloon than the Dragon Tongue, and just marginally less to the hull.  It would also do just slightly less damage than a Hades to the armor, yet have the bonus of never missing with Heavy Clip.  With those damage types reversed, its damage to the balloon and hull would be just a little less than a Hades, yet would outrank a Hades for armor damage.

Correct me if I'm wrong.  Seriously.  The calculations I made got pretty complicated, and the equation required arcane references, resulting in obfuscating any errors I may have made.  I'd love to have all the equations right before me from someone who was able to view it in a clear, understandable manner rather than the Da Vinci crap I've had to deal with.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Richard LeMoon on February 26, 2015, 12:08:05 am
I don't know. I would not use the current numbers so did not bother to figure it out.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on February 26, 2015, 12:33:25 am

Well after a discussion on this thing against my carro and your mino fish.

2 things were agreed on.

1. it made no sense to do piercing as its not piercing its knocking things about. that is impact. That mino hull break and terrain impact perma dmg was bollocks OP.

2. heavy clip mino is OP because of the high shatter. That gun worked like a long range carronade for component sniping and it ridiculously unfair when compared with the nature of other heavy guns. Its a freakin merc gun with crazy arc and an extra knockback effect. So we have agreed that thing needs less shatter dmg.

But I like the shatter! It's even more powerful when buffed with heavy. We had double AI so it took my poor gunner 2 shots to disable your carro.

The piercing really isn't that much. It's equivalent to less than 4.5 hades every 15 seconds or so. When you're being shot burn kero/shine in increments to reduce movement.

From that match I learned that AI no longer target balloon with the light carronade, they're back to shooting components.

(http://i.imgur.com/UUe9jGg.jpg)


Let's put things into perspective.

Your 2 AI (who are always bad apparently) were winning a dps war against 2 vets on blender fish. And me, a pilot who had to spam that kero like its an addiction to even get a few lucky shots at your balloon or your gun.

As you systematically lowered my mobility from both my kero use and component sniping and my own gun was mostly out of range to even put up a fight unless I drove and tanked REALLY hard.

This aint no gat mortar man. This is just 1 gun fully controlling a situation.

Its not like a lumberjack balloon lock where you need actual skill to aim that thing at long range. Or a carronade balloon lock where you need to get fairly close.

This thing can do its thing at any given range with barely any difficulty in accuracy.


My suggestion is as follows-effect and dmg diminishes with distance. Increase the base output sure, so its pretty good point blank and ok mid range.


sorta like a reverse arming time.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 26, 2015, 01:15:32 am
I guess we found the new anti fish meta

I think you should've charged more. The only significant damage I was doing at range was the shatter. When you charged you were able to snipe out the balloon and taur (excellent shooting). Close range I didn't have much defense except knocking your arcs off temporarily. The reload is about 10 seconds. In arming time it does no shatter.

Often times you would come close just to back up out of arming range. You didn't really have to tank while charging, the only damage was shatter from the Minotaur and light carro (with AI not aiming at balloon). You should hold off on the gun rebuild (one hit away) until the mino reloads. If you used the flames I would be dead due to AI.

You only have to use kero when you're getting shot. There's about a second between shots so you can time it, you were likely burning too much. The problem seemed to be that you were usually in my optimal range and I was often able to use both guns. When you charged I had little defense and relied on piloting maneuvers and brief uses of the taur to temporarily push you off arc.

To sum up, hold off on the gun rebuild and don't stop charging.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Kestril on February 26, 2015, 02:23:58 am

The ability to one shot any component with buff heavy is quite powerful. On a galleon it can be used as a long range disable weapon against other galleons.

Yeah. I was on the receiving end of that.

I think either the push or the disable should be nerfed. Probably the disable, because the pinpoint-accurate component sniping at 1800m is cray-z good.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: ZnC on February 26, 2015, 09:03:07 am
By my calculations (and I could be off, 'cause they got crazy complicated), the Minotaur, with direct piercing and splash impact, would do a bit more DPS to the balloon than the Dragon Tongue, and just marginally less to the hull.  It would also do just slightly less damage than a Hades to the armor, yet have the bonus of never missing with Heavy Clip.  With those damage types reversed, its damage to the balloon and hull would be just a little less than a Hades, yet would outrank a Hades for armor damage.
You seem keen to learn so I'll see what I can do.

After doing my own calculations, I have to ask how much damage are you using for the Impact AoE? If we change the secondary from Shatter to Impact, it would be rebalanced (i.e. definitely not 175 damage). Impact damage type is rare and has the best, all-rounded damage modifiers. The damage output is simply ridiculous to everything besides components.

Following the argument from Richard LeMoon, I see the core problem. What he is asking for is simply a small amount of Flechette damage, not Impact. There is a misconception that Impact would do better against Balloon as compared to Armor. Balloons have 1200hp and is designed to go down fast when targeted. That is why Flechette based weapons naturally have high damage. Impact damage type is very difficult to balance without being too strong against armor/hull.
However, because the Minotaur is so all-rounded, I don't think any of it would make it weaker than the current Shatter type, unless the damage is negligible.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on February 26, 2015, 10:08:14 am
I guess we found the new anti fish meta

I think you should've charged more. The only significant damage I was doing at range was the shatter. When you charged you were able to snipe out the balloon and taur (excellent shooting). Close range I didn't have much defense except knocking your arcs off temporarily. The reload is about 10 seconds. In arming time it does no shatter.

Often times you would come close just to back up out of arming range. You didn't really have to tank while charging, the only damage was shatter from the Minotaur and light carro (with AI not aiming at balloon). You should hold off on the gun rebuild (one hit away) until the mino reloads. If you used the flames I would be dead due to AI.

You only have to use kero when you're getting shot. There's about a second between shots so you can time it, you were likely burning too much. The problem seemed to be that you were usually in my optimal range and I was often able to use both guns. When you charged I had little defense and relied on piloting maneuvers and brief uses of the taur to temporarily push you off arc.

To sum up, hold off on the gun rebuild and don't stop charging.

You think I wasnt charging as hard as I could? You were blowing up my engines directly and indirectly and then shooting my guns and then keeping me kissing a nearby wall.

I was actually only able to kill you, by directly facing you in front because any slight angle and I go swerving a full 90. It had to be near perfectly straight on.

And you are aware a full second isn't enough to get back on arc right? It takes 2 seconds to do it with claw. A near 4-5 to do it reverse turning.

6 on neutral.

10 on forward throttle.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 26, 2015, 11:58:56 am
You think I wasnt charging as hard as I could? You were blowing up my engines directly and indirectly and then shooting my guns and then keeping me kissing a nearby wall.

I was actually only able to kill you, by directly facing you in front because any slight angle and I go swerving a full 90. It had to be near perfectly straight on.

And you are aware a full second isn't enough to get back on arc right? It takes 2 seconds to do it with claw. A near 4-5 to do it reverse turning.

6 on neutral.

10 on forward throttle.

You would have won every engagement when you got near, the problem was you didn't follow up. I was able to keep using hydro and burning to reposition. You should've won every close range engagement. Another problem was trying to run and not constantly pressing the attack. This allowed my gunner to disable your main and us to engage with both guns.

If you tried again it would end up a lot differently. "Peach" your front gun and never stop charging.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on February 26, 2015, 05:06:02 pm
You think I wasnt charging as hard as I could? You were blowing up my engines directly and indirectly and then shooting my guns and then keeping me kissing a nearby wall.

I was actually only able to kill you, by directly facing you in front because any slight angle and I go swerving a full 90. It had to be near perfectly straight on.

And you are aware a full second isn't enough to get back on arc right? It takes 2 seconds to do it with claw. A near 4-5 to do it reverse turning.

6 on neutral.

10 on forward throttle.

You would have won every engagement when you got near, the problem was you didn't follow up. I was able to keep using hydro and burning to reposition. You should've won every close range engagement. Another problem was trying to run and not constantly pressing the attack. This allowed my gunner to disable your main and us to engage with both guns.

If you tried again it would end up a lot differently. "Peach" your front gun and never stop charging.

I was being slammed into a wall. I had two choices. Die or get out of arc for a sec to reposition myself. If i continued to go in hard while being slammed into said wall. I'd just be giving you arc to slam me back into the wall.

I had to follow the momentum you were forcing me into to put my ship into a position where it was straight to that mino. If It wasn't I'd be locked in that side ways view kissing wall until I died. This was the first death. You think I'd be dumb enough to just repeat the same obviously flawed counter measure?

And I charged every second and angle I could reach where your gun was out of arc. Some balloon shots and few disables on your gun then you take your time turning to blast me out of arc.

If you think charging is turning with full throttle on, then that's a silly suggestion. I only countered your gun by reversing turning or neutral turning to straight out face you despite your gun dissuading me to.
And then keroing hard to maintain that straight arc and charged in which lasts a good two or 3 carro shots at best, before being arc locked again and probably being smashed into a wall for my trouble.


What you are suggesting isn't as simple as you say it is. Simply "trying again" takes a full 30 seconds of kero (while being pounded) and crazy accurate carro shots disabling your gun. While at the same time hull, and gun and engines have to be maintained.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 26, 2015, 05:57:03 pm
Well I guess that settles it. Taur + side carro hardcounters blender fish.

You were still able to get close and above multiple times. A blender fish's second most important weapon is the ram.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on February 26, 2015, 06:03:40 pm
Well I guess that settles it. Taur + side carro hardcounters blender fish.

And a hwacha fish
and a lumber fish
and a  flak spire
and galleon
and a junker
and a pyra double merc

pretty much anything that needs a steady arc and has a reload time. You;d think a metamidion or carro flame squid or a blender fish can go against it with their arcs and strong forward momentum. Nope. apparently not. Especially with that disabling ability at the ranges it does it.

You can't just simply say thats that.

(http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/8bb/283/adc/resized/inceptius-meme-generator-we-have-to-go-deeper-014848.jpg)
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Lanliss on February 26, 2015, 06:14:40 pm
What is the accuracy like on mino? Maybe a little spread could be added, so that it is not a sniper? I do not currently know if it is a sniper, just a suggestion.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Richard LeMoon on February 26, 2015, 06:18:04 pm
The spread is abysmal, like hwacha. Like hwacha, it vanishes with Heavy clip. Therein lies the problem.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 26, 2015, 06:31:30 pm
I agree it needs more balance, I just don't think a taur fish is as powerful as you (Max Jazzhand) contend. I would be comfortable against a taur fish in a hwatcha or blender fish. Then again I've never fought a successful one before so you do have more experience.

Sure it can suppress those other ships, but so can the other fish- more successfully I might add (it's what fish do best). The only killing power of the taur fish comes from terrain impact and the light gun bifecta. It's not enough to be a more viable counter than established builds. It's biggest issue is that it slows down the game.

Double taur galleon can easily lock down a ranged galleon and slowly break the armor. I like using the shatter, but the gun isn't currently balanced to deal 1 shot buffed heavy disables at extreme range with precision accuracy.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on February 26, 2015, 07:11:20 pm
I agree it needs more balance, I just don't think a taur fish is as powerful as you (Max Jazzhand) contend. I would be comfortable against a taur fish in a hwatcha or blender fish. Then again I've never fought a successful one before so you do have more experience.

Sure it can suppress those other ships, but so can the other fish- more successfully I might add (it's what fish do best). The only killing power of the taur fish comes from terrain impact and the light gun bifecta. It's not enough to be a more viable counter than established builds. It's biggest issue is that it slows down the game.

Double taur galleon can easily lock down a ranged galleon and slowly break the armor. I like using the shatter, but the gun isn't currently balanced to deal 1 shot buffed heavy disables at extreme range with precision accuracy.

It doesn't need to. it can take its time disabling because its controlling the target ship's movement and arcs. It will do those component destroys eventually. And it has the clip size to do it.

Its no lumberjack where you need very precise calculations on shell arc to hit and disable. You literally point and shoot. I really am an advocate for that anti arming time thing. Where distance dissipates the effect (and its super strong point blank). I mean its just a ball of wind slamming into the ship! Logically that should dissipate with distance.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: MidnightWonko on February 26, 2015, 09:11:14 pm
By my calculations (and I could be off, 'cause they got crazy complicated), the Minotaur, with direct piercing and splash impact, would do a bit more DPS to the balloon than the Dragon Tongue, and just marginally less to the hull.  It would also do just slightly less damage than a Hades to the armor, yet have the bonus of never missing with Heavy Clip.  With those damage types reversed, its damage to the balloon and hull would be just a little less than a Hades, yet would outrank a Hades for armor damage.
You seem keen to learn so I'll see what I can do.

After doing my own calculations, I have to ask how much damage are you using for the Impact AoE? If we change the secondary from Shatter to Impact, it would be rebalanced (i.e. definitely not 175 damage). Impact damage type is rare and has the best, all-rounded damage modifiers. The damage output is simply ridiculous to everything besides components.

Following the argument from Richard LeMoon, I see the core problem. What he is asking for is simply a small amount of Flechette damage, not Impact. There is a misconception that Impact would do better against Balloon as compared to Armor. Balloons have 1200hp and is designed to go down fast when targeted. That is why Flechette based weapons naturally have high damage. Impact damage type is very difficult to balance without being too strong against armor/hull.
However, because the Minotaur is so all-rounded, I don't think any of it would make it weaker than the current Shatter type, unless the damage is negligible.

Assuming the splash damage is changed from Shatter to Impact, I am using damage numbers of 60 direct Piercing and 175 Splash impact.

I am also prepared to list the equation I use:

Damage per second = clip size (direct bonus * direct damage + splash bonus * splash damage) / (clip size / shots per second + reload time)

If anyone sees an error in the above, please let me know.  I'd love to have more accurate numbers.

By using the above formula and assuming that every projectile hits its target and also does splash damage, this comes to 72.3 balloon dps, 60.7 hull dps, 50.9 dps, and 25.9 component dps.  This gives it similar Dragon Tongue balloon and hull dps (71.4, 61.9), places it near the midway point between Hellhound and Hades armor dps (39.7, 61.5), and nearly identical Scylla component dps (25.7), all accounting for individual reload times, yet ignoring ignition chance.

Here are the damages, again, as I calculated.  First with Piercing/Impact, as you proposed.  Then with Piercing/Shatter as it presently is.  Then with Impact/Shatter, and finally with Explosive/Shatter:

bllon, hull, armor, comp
72.3, 60.7, 50.9, 25.9 Piercing/Impact
10.4, 06.5, 27.6, 80.0 Piercing/Shatter
31.6, 23.8, 18.4, 85.3 Impact/Shatter
11.1, 22.4, 11.7, 81.4 Explosive/Shatter
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: ZnC on February 26, 2015, 11:49:26 pm
@MidnightWonko: Your formula is quite accurate, I've sent you a PM for a cleaner one.

The only problem I have with the Minotaur is how versatile it is coupled with it's ease of use. Being able to disable components is an interesting secondary feature, but also having 1.8k range, 800m/s projectile speed, 45 degree arcs all around might be too much. However, I want to see how players try to deal with it and have no suggestion to make as of yet.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 27, 2015, 12:05:20 am
It turns out the taur fish is an excellent mining platform with lesmok side mine and good gunners. Quite fun but a distinct lack of killing power without help from terrain.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: MidnightWonko on February 27, 2015, 12:38:27 am
I think the smartest suggestion I've seen in this thread so far was reducing the taur's range from 1800 to 800 (a decrease of about 55%).  This would allow it to counter carronades while not threatening to obsolete the Lumberjack, as well as allow the Mercury, Artemis, and Manticore to counter it by virtue of high shatter damage as well as outranging it.

Also, ZanC, thank you for the improved formula.  It showed me an interesting insight.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: arsgrabba on February 27, 2015, 11:12:56 pm
This gun is op, an equalizer for newbs. No more ramming. It was an unnecessary addition to an already great game.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Omniraptor on February 27, 2015, 11:51:58 pm
Frankly the noobs need a lot of equalising. The gun is slightly unbalanced pretty much everyone agrees.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: MidnightWonko on March 21, 2015, 12:57:19 am
So...this weapon got hit pretty hard with a nerf.  Total shatter damage dropped from 175 to 140, and projectile speed was more than halved.  It now does less than double the damage to components as the lumberjack (assuming all shots hit), and now the Artemis outdamages it a little bit on components.

I'd have to see it in a few more matches, but I'm not sure I feel this weapon is overpowered anymore.
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Dementio on March 21, 2015, 08:33:52 am
I'm not sure I feel this weapon is overpowered anymore.

Wait, it was overpowered? When?
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Kamoba on March 21, 2015, 09:41:23 am
I'm not sure I feel this weapon is overpowered anymore.

Wait, it was overpowered? When?

Seconded...

It was not over powered, unbalanced and still finding its place in the game, but not OP :)
Title: Re: About the Minotaur
Post by: Richard LeMoon on March 21, 2015, 10:29:08 am
If you can't successfully put it on a Goldfish and have it become the new go-to gun, it is not overpowered. At best, it was somewhat useful. Now, not so much. I actually had my gunner bring lesmok for long range, which did help. Still mostly useless on a Goldfish, though. Outside of joke builds, anyways.