Steam Sales

[Arturo Sanchez]

So then perhaps only 220k are the ones who have checked into the forums? Hmmm, reminder for someone to ask Muse at the devside later what numbers are accurate. We know its at over 250k. I'd guestimate given a year since that post we'd be closer to 500k by now.

So either way, lets estimate Muse makes COOP mode and lets throw out all the people who did the kickstarter. So say maybe 300k are all people who haven't kickstarted or given money for COOP. Say COOP was $10 just for the purpose of this calculation. Thats 3 mil right there. So even if 100k still haven't bought COOP but will once it launches, then thats 1 mil to Muse. Divide that by 7 or 8 team members. Granted there is rent and such to pay on their offices and other expenses. But still, Dat gud bizness!

dun think that's quite how it works (work being paid based on how many people play). But sure if we go with this. they get a livable humble salary.

[Zydrate]

Co-op is a really good point.

I think the game and its community will develop far better with the introduction of Co-op.

Most players wouldn't mind the relatively stressless version of GOIO. New players can get the hang of the game in the less "competitive" mode of the game. Having a good player base for the upcoming Co-op is a really good thing. And the Skirmish and MM could really use a four-digit players online.


Does anybody know how many people own GOIO? It'd be good to have that in this discussion.

My own brother is vaguely turned off of the game due to its primary PvP focus, though I convinced him to get it while it was five bucks before it went back all the way to 20$.

Some Co-Op would be nice, a bit more stress free would make me play the game a bit more. As of now I give it about an hour or two every couple days, not something I could binge on. As with most PvP games, if I lost too many rounds in a row I lose morale and stop playing the game entirely. (League of Legends did that to me, I barely touch it now).

[Arturo Sanchez]

Co-op would still have the same issue.

Lack of teamwork and competence ruins the flavour of the game. Guns will be guns no matter what mode you play.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Well games like L4D even have griefers in COOP play. I used to do max difficulty campaign clears in L4D1 all the time years back. I'd be at it for hours getting it right and when you'd have a good team, it would be great fun. But there was a lot of guys who would hop in and then purposely do stupid stuff to ruin it.

But if I had a choice to choose PVP or PVE mode in that game, I'd almost always choose PVE just because the griefers in PVP were much worse. Mostly due to the fact that everyone wanted to be zombies and no one wanted to play survivors. However, if you invented a game that was nothing but playing as zombies, no one would buy it. The human element was key to the enjoyment. Just people are selfish asses who are never willing to let others have a turn.

COOP mode in GOIO will get griefers and trolls. That is a given. However, they won't be near as bad as PVP. It'll be similar. You'll likely just have bad crew members hop on and shoot clouds/etc. Currently, nothing can be done to resolve this either way.

Which comes right back around to the #1 feature Muse needs to implement. One which myself and many others have been crying about for years. No more fooling around or walking the "please everyone" tightrope. Especially with a PS4 version coming and the hell that is going to inflict upon this community and upon the CA system. Enough is enough Muse, your reasons for not doing it were noble. But it comes a time in this trolly, dick filled, jerk world that you just gotta toss in the towel.

Thats right, its time...to add a kick vote feature. GOIO is practically one of the only FPS games of it's kind without a kick vote or mod functionality where players can mod in a kick vote. L4D has it, Payday 2 has it, dev after dev have added it. It comes a time when despite your noble reasons, you just have to sit down and say "screw it, it is better to piss off a few dick players instead of the multitude they are trolling." The CA system worked when things were small, it doesn't work when it gets larger. Not without starting to pay people to do it. Course if you're going to start paying people to ban trolls then sign me up. I got a block list which speaks of how effective I'd be...heh heh

[Arturo Sanchez]

Well games like L4D even have griefers in COOP play. I used to do max difficulty campaign clears in L4D1 all the time years back. I'd be at it for hours getting it right and when you'd have a good team, it would be great fun. But there was a lot of guys who would hop in and then purposely do stupid stuff to ruin it.

But if I had a choice to choose PVP or PVE mode in that game, I'd almost always choose PVE just because the griefers in PVP were much worse. Mostly due to the fact that everyone wanted to be zombies and no one wanted to play survivors. However, if you invented a game that was nothing but playing as zombies, no one would buy it. The human element was key to the enjoyment. Just people are selfish asses who are never willing to let others have a turn.

COOP mode in GOIO will get griefers and trolls. That is a given. However, they won't be near as bad as PVP. It'll be similar. You'll likely just have bad crew members hop on and shoot clouds/etc. Currently, nothing can be done to resolve this either way.

Which comes right back around to the #1 feature Muse needs to implement. One which myself and many others have been crying about for years. No more fooling around or walking the "please everyone" tightrope. Especially with a PS4 version coming and the hell that is going to inflict upon this community and upon the CA system. Enough is enough Muse, your reasons for not doing it were noble. But it comes a time in this trolly, dick filled, jerk world that you just gotta toss in the towel.

Thats right, its time...to add a kick vote feature. GOIO is practically one of the only FPS games of it's kind without a kick vote or mod functionality where players can mod in a kick vote. L4D has it, Payday 2 has it, dev after dev have added it. It comes a time when despite your noble reasons, you just have to sit down and say "screw it, it is better to piss off a few dick players instead of the multitude they are trolling." The CA system worked when things were small, it doesn't work when it gets larger. Not without starting to pay people to do it. Course if you're going to start paying people to ban trolls then sign me up. I got a block list which speaks of how effective I'd be...heh heh

Kicking segregates the community. Noobs appear, they are dicks (the recent steam sale players are seriously getting on my nerves), but guess what? Guns has a very prominent community. The moment they realise that we as a community eat those trolls for breakfast. They get schooled, get all mad and leave.

And what remains of the sales rush are the new true guns players. Muse gets their money, we maintain the community via a common enemy and we get new blood that understands why community is important.


You gotta understand-trolls outnumber us during the sales period. If kick voting was implemented (and given to users), the community would not be the ones that are empowered.

However-Kick power given to CAs? I would like to be considered as a last resort reprimand.

[ShadedExalt]

I REALLY like the CA kick idea.  The trolls, if given kickvote, would abuse it to hell and back.  People who aren't as reasonable would use it to kick noobs, even if they genuinely wanted or were willing to learn.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Livin in a dream world Ceres. Reality is the trolls do far more damage to new players than ever. They don't know to report or block. They don't know to find a CA. Which won't do them any good anyways as CAs can only warn and report people. I was originally doubtful about kicking as a solution but over a year in this game it became painfully clear that the community does nothing. It only takes 1 match to completely ruin a person on GOIO forever. There were people I befriended awhile back, they had 1 match with a troll on their boat. Never saw them again after that.

There is never some heroic rise of the community to punish a troll. If you want to punish them, either you do it yourself, or find someone like me who isn't afraid to chase them from room to room with a munker and mine them till they rage quit. That is the only justice there is in this game. Which is of course frowned upon by Muse because the troll can report us for that behavior. Hell back in the early days I had a crew of kids report me for flying my own ship. I joined while one of their group had disconnected and they started dancing around the pilot station instead of just saying their pal would be back. I reported them and screenshotted it. They in turn reported me. Muse messaged me regarding their complaints, not mine. I brought up the proof, but they still partially sided with the brats.

Muse is living in a dream world too on this issue. One of these days, they'll be forced into a corner and have to implement it. Its coming. The more popular something becomes, the more complaints arise. Muse can't just keep putting bandaids on it by giving away games or free costumes forever to players. Pretty soon that will be exploited if it hasn't already been. Heck as this game goes more towards Adventure Mode's pseudo MMO setup, this will be a necessity. I can't think of any MMO that doesn't have kick features for parties/groups.

Kick voting greatly returns the power to the players. Sure trolls in groups would abuse it but those would be isolated cases. The rest of us it gives them an option to deal with these people instead of having to endure them. For the bad cases, just put cooldowns on kick features. Its a simple concept that MMOs have been using for years to prevent trolls from abusing. Muse shouldn't be having to micromanage all the complaints that could be handled by a kick system. Heck the fact that they still do right now is shocking. That is needless time wasted on problems that can be easily solved with a simple feature addition. As the game grows, this is going to have to change.

[Indreams]

I kinda like that Muse has an ideology and they stick to it.

GOIO is different from many other games because of its community and communication. I don't think kick-vote is a step in the right direction.

And from my experience, there are very few real trolls in GOIO. Those that you think are trolls often turn out to be new players getting hang of communicative gaming, repair cool downs, or just trying out a creative/weird builds.

I think GOIO needs to make clear that this is not just a steampunk airship game, but also a game about intense cooperation and teamwork with strangers (an important life skill).


I got more I want to say, but I can't put them into correct words. So I hope I sorta got the main point across.

1.) Kick-vote is not a plus to the community. At best, its a bitter medicine to cure a cold.
2.) Trolls are misunderstood creatures. (at least in the skies of GOIO)
3.) GOIO needs to be obvious to new players that it is a game about communication, cooperation, and teamwork thats probably more proper for the more mature gamers.

[Schwalbe]

GOIO is different from many other games because of its community and communication. I don't think kick-vote is a step in the right direction.

I think GOIO needs to make clear that this is not just a steampunk airship game, but also a game about intense cooperation and teamwork with strangers (an important life skill).

1.) Kick-vote is not a plus to the community. At best, its a bitter medicine to cure a cold.

Agreed.

2.) Trolls are misunderstood creatures. (at least in the skies of GOIO)

Disagreed. They are assholes or douchebags thinking it's another bloody Call Of Duty.

3.) GOIO needs to be obvious to new players that it is a game about communication, cooperation, and teamwork thats probably more proper for the more mature gamers.

Yeah sure. I wonder HOW would you do so. If people don't even tend to read, ha, they don't even dare to THINK...

[Arturo Sanchez]

Nothing teaches better than a good schooling.

Adding to the ever increasing AI clan mantras.
"Players want to learn to get better. Noobs only want to win."

And gilder... you're misunderstanding what I mean. Policing a community doesn't always have to be some immature 4chan raid on the troll.
It is simply the tolerance of the community of certain types of behaviour. They can be jerks as much as they want, but guess what? That's not gonna get you any friends to play with, any teammates you can trust nor any vets that will help you.

You'll just be stuck with the company that you're stuck with, other douchebags that you can only play with as no one else will willingly tolerate you.

[DJ Logicalia]

The whole conversation about kicking really scares me. I haven't read all the threads on it, but I've seen enough to turn me off to it. None of the details ever seem to be concrete enough to make me feel safe about it. Like, how many people would it take to kick a player? Is it more than 3? If not, a crew could (and a whole lot would, let's be honest here) kick a player for being too new or denying a recommended loadout or something. Is it more than 7? Because a team could easily do the same thing that a crew could do in terms of unfairly kicking. And the age old "Hey, X, could you swap with my friend in the spectator slot" becomes a kick if you have enough players. I often play with a whole team of friends, and I'm sure you've seen those newbie clans with, like, 12 players in them. The power is going to be so hard to balance in a game like this.

And on top of all that, no "Kick player back to lobby" button exists for mods. The kick feature (and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am) removes a player from the game, not from a match. So that entire system would have to be built. But how much good would it really do to kick a troll back to the main lobby if they can just hop into another match? Someone who is the kind of person who would spend money on a game just to ruin it for themselves and everyone else I don't think would be deterred by a boot to the main lobby, which is why (I would assume ) mods don't do that.

CAs, on the other hand, I feel might be a better about having a power like that. As opposed to a lobby of people wanting to play, CAs have the responsibility to follow up on a problem players. I read a thread a while back about giving CAs a vote kick feature. Like, 2 (or more) CAs have to agree on kicking/muting a player before it happen. I think most of the CAs are pretty trusted enough by the community and the development team that this doesn't seem so outlandish. However, after working with the Devs a lot, it is blatantly obvious the all Muse wants is a better game for everybody, so I generally trust them to be making better choices for the community, and they haven't really let me down yet. So if they still hold to the "only mods should have that power" line, I trust them on that, like I have in the past

[nanoduckling]

I'm opposed to a kick feature, but I think there are things we can do to help with this problem. The first issue I see is far too many people try to reason with trolls. Block. Report. Move on. If you are a CA or CA Mod sure, you try to get people to play nice before you drop the ban hammer (or in the case of CAs get a CA Mod to do it for you) because there is an implicit duty of care there, but the rest of us are just feeding trolls if you try to reason with them. One feature that doesn't help with this is the report limit players have which I regularly hit during sales, I know why it is there, but I think five is a bit low.

As far as to social organization of the games go there is an intermediate step between kicking and what we have now, changes to the matchmaker. If I have a player blocked, odds are pretty decent I don't want to play with them (I know some folks block players for other reasons so maybe an alternative status would be useful). If the lobby hid matches I'm in from players on my do-not-play-with list and the matchmaker avoided putting me in matches with those players in them I'd have to worry less about trolls.

This has a number of advantages. No one is explicitly kicked. Individual players or even medium sized groups of players have little power. Vets cannot use it to kick new players (what are you going to do, block all the thousands of powder monkeys during a sale? Good luck with that). You cant kick a player to let a friend in, so that problem goes away.

The problems:
-I can really see is if trolls annoy so many people they cannot be put in any game, but I think if you have managed to annoy all 300 people online at a time, maybe this variant of a 'soft ban' is justified.
-Players could join a lobby on a different player and find you there, but that is going to require a fair bit of work from the troll.
-Some players would blocked skilled players to stop ending up in matches with them.

I don't think we need to empower players to stop others from playing. We need to empower them with the choice not to play with folks they don't want to play with. One is depriving another of autonomy, the other is utilizing ones own.

[Dutch Vanya]

Why is votekicking being discussed again? It's a feature just as likely a boarding.

[Arturo Sanchez]

I dunno if we got people confusing bad players for trolls or not.

But just for clarification a troll is a player that actively plays to intentionally be a detriment to their team/ship.

Like a loch engie that destroys all guns and doesn't fix.

A pilot that spams hydro or moonshine while in neutral.

These are example where I'm dead certain someone is being an ass and not just being a tard. Most times however I'm just seeing noobs, as opposed to trolls. Literal players trying to play to win, without the experience/common sense to follow through.

The kinda player that thinks the predictions of a players thats played over 1000 matches isn't gonna come true.

So just to be clear... is an imbecile considered a legit troll? If it is the case, then by far a kick feature is not the thing to fix this.

[Replaceable]

I like it when level 4's try to give level 45's with 4000 plus matches (9800 matches plus in certain cases) advice.