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New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)

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Squidslinger Gilder:
Yeah that is the problem with Junkers, you need blender builds to kill them or you need to charge ram the balloon. Even then, if you are in kill zone they can just rebuild and tear you up before you have a chance to do anything. All ships in the game are killable with both kill builds and blender but Junkers...unless you run double gat + kill on a junker, you won't cut through them.

IvKir:
But you can still counter Junkers with good hwachafish or hwacha-spire with good crew. Or you can kill it's secondary engines. And, of course, good hwacha-blender galleon is a nightmare for Junkers.

Squidslinger Gilder:
Thats what we are saying, Junkers only really have one counter, disable builds. Hwacha is disable. Every ship in the game is weak against disable but can also be taken down with kill builds. Junkers vs  kill builds take a lot longer than it should. Its not a heavy warship but can survive like one. Due in part to the distribution of components. Shots often hit components rather than hull/armor. The solution to this used to be heavy clip. But then everything was heavy clip and no other clip was used. I wouldn't mind HC seeing a little bump to make it more attractive, maybe shot distance. But , its a delicate area.

Frogger:

--- Quote from: IvKir on November 28, 2014, 03:26:53 am ---But you can still counter Junkers with good hwachafish or hwacha-spire with good crew. Or you can kill it's secondary engines. And, of course, good hwacha-blender galleon is a nightmare for Junkers.

--- End quote ---

Honestly, at the highest levels of play, all other things being equal, hwachas are pretty ineffective against well-crewed focus-firing metajunkers. Particularly once your crew is trained in "peaching" (duckspeak for rebuilding to within one click and waiting), you can easy rebuild a downed gatling immediately after a hwacha barrage and gatsnipe the hwacha right out until the rest of your systems are back online. Blending is the only totally reliable (perhaps excessively so!) counter to a junker

Spires are even worse off - so much as look at a spire with an artemis or a hades and it falls to pieces. Focus fire six of those guns on a spire? Good night, Irene.

The same with close range galleons. With its exposed guns, sluggish movement, and huge hull profile, 6x artemis-hades fire will simultaneously pierce, explode, flame, and shatter everything on the ship reliably at ranges up to 1300m. Is Mr. Galleon getting too close? Put 'er in reverse.

This is my experience, at least.

Of course, positioning miracles will mitigate all these limitations. But why not take the stronger build, create the same positioning magic, and have an even better outcome? I've never been one for handicapping myself intentionally.

As an aside, what I would say generally is that if the junker is to have its primary stats nerfed, then it should somehow be made less vulnerable to blending. The current lack of junkers in competitive is very telling - basically, a team's reliance on junkers frequently leads to the opposing team's switch to a blender-based hard counter in the lobby. It would be much better to find a happier middle ground, I think.

Squidslinger Gilder:
Yeah agreed. The one issue with making a junker less blendable is the fact that they can't really change the balloon. Unless they added armor plating to the balloon in spots. Reduce the hit box of it but still, it wouldn't be Pyra level.

The old way things were was, you countered disable with killing power. Disable took too long to be effective half the time and the risk of a disable ship being killed was extremely high as it needed longer time to get it's job done. They could exist in 3v3 but 2v2 it was tougher due to focus fire. You'd have to get disable going while dodging fire and surviving long enough for your ally to get the other boat off your back. With the game being slower and movement poor, pilots just couldn't do this. This only fed more into the kill boat mentality and the departure from blenders/etc. Then Art was super buffed and finally everyone realized it was better to sit back and snipe than it was to rush and take the higher risk. I said it back then...what point was there for teams to close range and risk it? Everyone was screaming to charge and do something exciting, but the game was just too slow. If you aren't confident in your ship movement in cqc then flying turret sniping is all you can do.

So now we're in a place where disable is better than killing and ranged cannot repel anything. The weakness in explosive heavy weapons is painfully clear. Galleon broadsides should be things to be feared, not things to charge into. This is a great time for a new short range explosive weapon to be introduced. The threads in the feedback area have some nice ideas. But a new heavy explosive weapon meant to give high killing power at close to mid range. Would be awesome to strengthen the Galleon right now. Sure it has hwatchas and carronades but neither are that scary if you keep them under control. As Frogger says, gat it out, done. Catch it in reload means even if it comes back up, it has to sit there trying to reload and so you can just gat it out again.

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