Balloon/flechette attacks

[All Systems Go]

So... lately -- after getting them used on me -- I've been playing with flechette weapons. The carronades, that is.

I'd like others' thoughts on this, but slowly I'm leaning more and more towards thinking they're a bit overpowered?

I mean it's been great for my get 3 more kills than deaths and other goldfish achievements... but it just renders the victim ship completely helpless. They can't shoot back, trying to run just speeds their demise. As soon as it's rebuilt, it gets knocked down again, and that's without instructing my gunner to hold fire until they repair.

Yeah, teammates can help, especially in 3v3, but in 2v2... they're often busy with your other teammate.

It's also an attack that works from any angle, whereas other component attacks, you need to, say, approach from behind (engines) or face the weapons you're trying to take out, and so on...

But with a balloon attack, you just stay above, shoot down, and there's just nothing they can do, even with 2-3 engies constantly rebuilding the blimp.

My personal strategy is drogue chute and hope my ally responds/can respond when I call. It really seems about all I can do, and certainly my victims when I launch the attack seem just as helpless. Certainly even with a more conventional attack, an ally's help to take the heat off can go a long way, but not even a hwacha renders one as fully immune to retaliation as this.

So, I wanted to put it on the table for discussion. Unless I'm missing some key element or there's some other reason, do balloon attacks seem a little OP?

And another point for the upcoming adventure mode... if there are adversarial missions and only 1 ship per side... it seems like it will come down to whoever can knock down the other's blimp first, or to whoever brings a carronade or two if one player decides not to.

[Donovan Copperbottom]

I'm actually leaning towards agreeing with you on this one, at least when it comes to the repairing bit. I'd say the range and damage of the carronades were fine, they were before, and they tweaked it a bit to give the heavy one more spread in one of the last balance patches. That said, in the big overhaul patch that tweaked repair rates and so on, it seems like balloons have a great deal more health than before, but subsequently take far far loner to repair from broken.
 I've managed to pull off one or two times in the pilot's seat a frantic ascension with hydrogen immediately after the balloon was back up, but it's never easy to come back from bouncing around on the floor while under the assault of a carronade goldfish.

[Helmic]

A buff hammer in those situations can be a godsend, it'll let you rise up quickly without draining precious balloon HP.  It's not that the carronade is OP, but that it's the sniper rifle of GoI.  Once you're hit, there isn't shit you can do other than delay the inevitable and hope your opponent lets you move underneath him.

[RearAdmiralZill]

You forget to mention they have extremely short ranges compared to the long range meta. Letting them get in close so that they can lock you is the mistake that give it an "OP Feel". Ive also seen many people needlessly charge into short range fights with long/mid range weaponry.

Menuvering around a locked ship to maintain the best angle on the balloon isnt so easy as you say. The locked ship's priority should be to get out of the carronade angle. If youre facing a carronade goldfish for example, fight at high altitude. This gives you a much larger buffer.

The Heavy Carronade was actaully nerfed from its pre 1.1.4 state. With the nerf to Loch and the spread increase, plus tweaking so it wasnt insta-killing hull armor, it was reigned in.

It really is a nice example of high risk, high reward when done correctly. You cannot just blow them up after the balloon goes. The ground has to help in a lot of Carronade kills. That is a fairly big weakness.

[Helmic]

Having flown more than a few carronade fish myself, I can tell you the carronade is not high risk high reward.  It is incredibly easy to stay on a target, the only thing you have to worry about is their teammate coming in for a 2v1 which shouldn't be happening if your teammate is doing his job.  They're also surprisingly long range, once that balloon is teetering on death it doesn't take much to keep it dying.  Your reward, on the other hand, is the slowest kill ever.  Much like how hwachas take forever to actually kill a target, it takes AGES to take down a competent crew that doesn't want to go down.  They won't ever rise above you, but they sure as hell will drag it out for ten minutes.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Having flown more than a few carronade fish myself, I can tell you the carronade is not high risk high reward.  It is incredibly easy to stay on a target, the only thing you have to worry about is their teammate coming in for a 2v1 which shouldn't be happening if your teammate is doing his job.  They're also surprisingly long range, once that balloon is teetering on death it doesn't take much to keep it dying.  Your reward, on the other hand, is the slowest kill ever.  Much like how hwachas take forever to actually kill a target, it takes AGES to take down a competent crew that doesn't want to go down.  They won't ever rise above you, but they sure as hell will drag it out for ten minutes.

We don't always play the same matches so we will have different perspectives. For me it becomes high risk to charge long range barrages from good gunners, and high reward to lock that long range vessel in a dive toward the ground and effectively being forced to survive. Staying out of gun arcs that can disable your gun is the part that gets tricky.

And yes, it does take ages to kill someone on your own. Thats why its not OP. If it did, then you could disable them and pop them rather easily. Currently, your ally has ample time to assist, but if that time runs out, thats on them.

[Pickle]

Counters to a carronade-fish
- keep with you hunting group (don't get separated from you team)
- use the map and don't let it get close to start with
- use your guns don't let it get close with a functioning carronade (counter at range with Merc, or closer with Whirlwind)
- use drogue shoot to buy time for repairs
- make full use of the chadburn and tiller to change direction and speed to get under the 'fish (using Phoenix Claw or Moonshine)
- make the position behind and above untenable (using tar barrel)

However, if you're flying a carronade-fish and struggling with over-long kills.  You do have many solutions available to improve your lethality.

[Connor Mc.]

- keep with you hunting group (don't get separated from you team)

Sir this is not a "rap music" song

[Captain Smollett]

Having flown more than a few carronade fish myself, I can tell you the carronade is not high risk high reward.  It is incredibly easy to stay on a target, the only thing you have to worry about is their teammate coming in for a 2v1 which shouldn't be happening if your teammate is doing his job.  They're also surprisingly long range, once that balloon is teetering on death it doesn't take much to keep it dying.  Your reward, on the other hand, is the slowest kill ever.  Much like how hwachas take forever to actually kill a target, it takes AGES to take down a competent crew that doesn't want to go down.  They won't ever rise above you, but they sure as hell will drag it out for ten minutes.

We don't always play the same matches so we will have different perspectives. For me it becomes high risk to charge long range barrages from good gunners, and high reward to lock that long range vessel in a dive toward the ground and effectively being forced to survive. Staying out of gun arcs that can disable your gun is the part that gets tricky.

And yes, it does take ages to kill someone on your own. Thats why its not OP. If it did, then you could disable them and pop them rather easily. Currently, your ally has ample time to assist, but if that time runs out, thats on them.

I've got to go with Zill here.  Properly positioned teams can often make it difficult for a carronade goldfish to even approach. 

When it does a good gunner can often break the enemies carronade before the balloon is fully destroyed buying time for repairs and repositionning. 

If you do get balloon locked, two crewmen working on the balloon, maneuvering behind the carronading ship, drogue chute while descending and a quick hydrogen when it's up can often get you right back in the fight. 

If that still isn't enough, a good teammate can save you before the longest kill ever finishes you.  If you're situation isn't dire, your teammate may be able to kill the other opponent and get you out of the lock.  Or they can decide to directly shoot at the locking goldfish while tanking the other enemy shooting at them. 

There are a lot of options to go against the strategy, however in an unorganized pub game, one good carronade goldfish can often single handedly disassemble an uncoordinated team.

[Helmic]

What I don't get is why anyone thinks we're disagreeing except on semantics.  Being disabled isn't something unique to the carronade or any other closer-range weapons, it's just that it's pretty much the only way to avoid being balloon locked.  Since your reward is a very slow kill, it's not nearly as viable against more skilled players who will either disable your gun or outmaneuver you.

[All Systems Go]

Staying at max altitude and trying to defang the fish is pretty much my main strategy. And yeah, a coordinated team is a good defense. But ehh, if it took 10 minutes per kill or even 5, I wouldn't be able to finish a match in my carronade fish with 3+ kills.

I just don't think there's anything else that can so easily "lock" a ship so completely. Even with dual hwachas on an enemy they can get away much more easily. In my own experience, I've had all 3 of my crew on a balloon and it just won't stay up more than a second or two after the rebuild.

And, you know, with clouds and map geometry, keeping an enemy at range isn't so easy as that. Even if I decide to go for a direct approach with my fish, they can't touch my engines and it's pretty easy to just tank most things and repair/rebuild the gun as I go (once it gets rebuilt, they're screwed. But bring the luck charm thing that increases turn speed, it's vital for pointing the carronade at them before they can turn about).

In 3v3 or 4v4, I think it's a little too easy, but it's no huge deal.
In 2v2, I think it's a bit OP.
--Even with a completely newbie ally that hardly knows how to drive and leaves me to fend off 2v1 most of the time, I can often get a kill or 3 still. Especially on maps with a lot of geometry or if they aren't at max altitude, you can get a kill in like 30 seconds sometimes. Granted, if they both have effective builds and are very well coordinated they can keep you off... most nonclan teams seem to lack one or the other though.
If we see 1v1 in adventure mode, I think it'll come close to being a win button. Even if you destroy the gun, they only need to get it repaired for a few seconds to take your balloon down and then you're not getting another shot at them unless they can't stay on you.


TL;DR: Sneaking up isn't that hard with map geometry and clouds. Yeah it can be countered but it seems like it's just far easier to implement than other strategies...

(I'll keep working on my 3 more kills than deaths achievement in the meantime though ^.^)

[Helmic]

1v1 it's easily the best strategy available other than parking a mile away with dual mercs.  Apparently they experimented with duels and decided it wasn't worth it, so hopefully the carronade's dominance in one-on-one confrontations doesn't become an issue.  As I said, it's low risk (they're not going to retaliate unless you royally fuck up) low reward (have fun wasting ten minutes and/or dying to their angry teammate).  Even with more experienced opponents I haven't had too much trouble keeping them locked, it's really just a matter of avoiding their teammate because it's significantly harder to balloon lock two ships at a time.  Don't get too close to the ship you're locking so they can't fly underneath you, keep them at medium (NOT short) range, and give them a ram every once in a while to give their engineers more shit to do.  If you're making use of those side flamethrowers, you get a cookie.

As for defence, stay high, take out their guns if you can, buff the balloon whenever possible (don't bother with hydrogen unless their gunner's name is Phillip), try to fly underneath them, and generally kick and scream for as long as possible.  You are the terran that just got rushed, time to lift off and force them to tech to air.

[All Systems Go]

By the way, I do have to say - it's hilarious watching people rage when you use this on them. Some of them get so worked up XD

[Connor Mc.]

By the way, I do have to say - it's hilarious watching people rage when you use this on them. Some of them get so worked up XD

I wonder why >.>

[RearAdmiralZill]

I just don't think there's anything else that can so easily "lock" a ship so completely. Even with dual hwachas on an enemy they can get away much more easily.

Let me shoot two hwachas at you at carronade range and try to fly away or do anything remotely dangerous to me. Good luck.

You cant base the OP'ness of a weapon vs new players. If that were the case, flamethrowers, gatling guns, and anything that killed them would be OP.

Utilizing that cloud cover and geometry is the only way a blenderfish is going to get close without dieing instantly to long range fire. If youre facing a blenderfish, give yourself open space, stay high, and highly consider a pyramidion to fly. The hull surrounds the balloon so the shots dont all hit your balloon.