Problems with matchmaking

[SirNotlag]

Also agree with shaelyn. the only thing I think could go is rematch, everything else is a must for me.

[Milevan Faent]

I'd actually prefer more flexibility over the balance.  the restrictions add frustration and stress, and in the end make the experience as a whole less fun.  fun is what I'm trying to achieve, and while balanced matches are a lot of fun, I don't go into this game expecting a perfectly balanced match every single game.  and hell, I've had a match where the crew and I sang Still Alive as we got stomped.  it was hilarious and awesome, would repeat.  it's not the balance that makes the game fun, it's the people that I crew with.  I want to be able to crew with the people that I have fun with whenever I want, and easily.

I would still rather see match list go in alongside matchmaking - use the matchmaker to fill in the crevices and balance where it can, and to bring the people that don't want to hunt for a match an easy way into a match, but let those of us that want to search through for something more specific do so.  no, it won't be balanced, but it's not balanced now, either.  I am willing to concede the match list completely with good reason (balance would be a good enough reason, but again, it's not balanced now, so I don't see any reason for the match list to not exist right now), but I absolutely do not want to lose the ability to quickly and easily hop into a friend's match, especially not for the sake of balance.  the current system is still much too restrictive.

Mezhu, swapping slots through spectate was a feature the player base that tested the game fought for, since they removed the swap slot function otherwise and still want to restrict.  when I first tested, they didn't allow people to move from spectate at all - but a lot of people move to spectate for a match while they're eating or answering a phone call, or they'll start in spectate and want to jump in once a slot opens up with their friends.  additionally, sometimes people try to join their group of friends and wind up on the wrong team.

You, my good sir, have earned a place on my "I must crew with you" list. Singing Still Alive is hilarious XD

[GreenBreeze]

I am going to preface this by saying that I am not normally one to use forums and complain about things. However, I love GOI and it's small, tight-knit community and I want to contribute to the progress of this game and let my voice be heard because I think that the MatchMaking system in it's current form is causing a frustrating game-play experience for many others besides myself.

This patch was full of good improvements but I feel they are all overshadowed by the MatchMaking system. I pretty much agree with Shaelyn in that I value flexibility much greater than balance.

GOI is a game that is all about teamwork and cooperation. Communication is key to success. I only play when I have at least one friend to play with as I can effectively communicate with friends and it makes everyone's experience more pleasant if at least half of the ship is highly functioning. Being able to, at the very least form a crew is an absolute necessity, as is the ability to join friends' matches, though I really, really miss the ability to be able to view all the lobbies. This might diminish the balance a little bit, but I feel that it helps more than it hurts.

Ship/Slot swapping is another feature that I am sad to see go. This was a tool that gave us the power to at least somewhat adjust lobbies without having to reform them. Sometimes you want to tweak the teams a little bit and then rematch. I understand that the reason given for removing this feature was to achieve balance and prevent stacked teams. However, it has been my experience that this tool is almost always used in the reverse, in that people use it to un-stack the teams because everyone wants games that are more fun to play, and one-sided matches aren't very much fun for either side.

Custom matches are essential to the community. How else can you create a lobby named "Mobula Madness" and get two more mobula pilots to join up? Forcing MM as the only option prevents people from being able to do silly things and have fun with it. Please give us the option to at least opt-out of MM. People still need to be able to view these matches so that I can get the other two mobula pilots needed to start the match. This doesn't work if it's restricted to people who have me on their friends list.

The match timer has been addressed in another topic and I want to state that I feel it should be removed entirely, or at least don't start it until half the lobby has readied up. Forcing a match to begin with an ill-prepared crew does not make for a fun match. Maybe let the lobby vote to disable the timer?

There are many times during the late-night hours for me that I check out GOI and there are less than 50 people playing. That used to mean that I could choose between about three lobbies if you combine running and waiting lobbies. I could spectate a running game that is almost over and grab a spot when someone quits after the match, usually at least one person has to go. Now with the new MM system there are still probably only about three lobbies going, but now I can't see them and I have to put my faith in MM to do it for me. I have spent over 20 minutes waiting in MM purgatory before giving up and trying again only to spend even more time before I decide to just go play something else. With the old lobby system I would be waiting in a lobby with two or three other people and we could at least converse with one another while we waited for another boat or two. I might even make a new friend while I wait. Now I am stuck looking at an endless loop of tool-tips which I could probably recite to you by now.

I could go on but I feel like I have perhaps, already been too long-winded. Suffice it to say I am not at all pleased with the new MM system and I sincerely hope that Muse will listen to it's community and return previous functionality that was stripped away from us. I just want to smack an engine with a mallet without the frustration  of MM diminishing my experience. I don't feel like there was anything wrong with the previous lobby system that is enhanced by MM.

See you all in the skies!

[Mezhu]

Everyone finds joy in different aspects of the game, there's no arguing that. You think instajoining on friends, finding a game quickly, spectator jumping and singing while getting stomped is what makes the game fun. I think it's challenging, well balanced games that do so. Nothing wrong with either. You feel the current system is too restrictive, I feel it's not restrictive enough. Unfortunately, the game can't keep us all satisfied. The problem is, muse are trying to.

As it is right now, the game's standing with one foot on a very compromised matchmaking system, and with the other one on the old lobby system, in an attempt to make everyone happy (but disappointing everyone instead). What I'm wondering is, what is the current matchmaking system offering? It's been suggested over and over again for a long time now in, an attempt to fix long-standing problems within the game and its playerbase. Yet lobby quality is still crap, lobby balance hasn't improved in the slightest, stacking is still unresolved (there always are 5 high-skill stacks split among 4 games, stomping them instead of being put against each other). 

If you're not dedicated enough to a matchmaking system, one that adresses these issues and attempts to improve the game in that regard, why the fuck do we have a matchmaking in the first place? Might as well return to the casual, fun for some, sing-while-getting stomped lobby system.


ps; I know this is the internet, where everyone complains and knows everything, but you have to admit that from a design perspective current mm implementation neither fixes nor improves much (save maybe for the lobby wait time), as it's so easy to bypass. This isn't meant to be a rant but rather constructive criticism, and I apologize if it feels like one.

[Wundsalz]

In order to make match-making work, the match making system needs to be in charge of matching players for matches.
Currently there are a lot of elements which completely undermine match-making. This corrodes the system to a degree that it's not able to fulfill its purpose - personally I don't see a major difference between the current match-making and the quick-play button we've had a while back.
If we want to make matchmaking work, the system needs to be restrictive - just take a look around what other games with matchmaking do! Many mobas have got a way larger player base and only need to match 10 players which are sort of on par, rather than 16 which are needed for GoIO. Still they restrict the size or pre-made parties and regard them as THE major problem which prevents balanced matches (see Smite matchmaking).

I doubt a proper matchmaking is possible unless the players "flexibility" is restricted. That being said I'm not comfortable with relying on the matchmaking system entirely until some infancy problems are resolved - multiple gunner matching, and the insane skill deviation (lvl<10+lvl45 captain vs. 2 lvl 30ish captains) in particular.

[Spud Nick]

Too many restrictions might cause the balance to be off. I have been in a few lobbies were experienced players realize the match is stacked but can't attempt to balance it because they can't swap ships with the other team.

[Mezhu]

Relying on players' good will in balancing the games is more of a problem than a solution

[GreenBreeze]

just take a look around what other games with matchmaking do! Many mobas have got a way larger player base and only need to match 10 players which are sort of on par, rather than 16 which are needed for GoIO.

I believe here lies the crux of the problem. GOI just does not have a large enough playerbase to make a matchmaking system work effectively. In order for MM to really work you need a large pool to draw from.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Mez one of the big reasons Muse pushed MM on us is because they wanted to do away with the lobby list for performance reasons. When people would pull up the match list, it would require time and resources to poll the servers. MM gets around that.

Honestly, I think the other reasons were secondary but time will tell. They wanted that performance boost and were willing to risk enraging the community to do it. Will it pay off in the end? Dunno.

Other games run MM systems that aren't as aggravating. Awesomenauts comes to mind. However, that is a totally different game. Queuing up solo or in a group is completely fine. You don't need a lobby or forethought.

GOIO is more liken to say, original Ghost Recon or Rainbow 6. In those you spent time in a mission setup making sure your team as prepped to handle the mission. Heck original Rainbow 6 spent ages in prep before you ever got into a mission. What Muse seems trying to do is take a game that is designed for preparation and turning it into CoD, without a full effort being made to make it CoD. If you are removing the mind from GOIO then you gotta fundamentally change the entire game to match to the point an 8yr old with attention problems can pick it up and think he's OP. So, remove classes, just make everyone the same, add killstreaks and kill cams, DLC everything, and then rake in the dough from the mindless. Imagine those old FPS games with MM added. Zomg it would be a nightmare because 1 hit = 1 kill in those. Without planning or forethought you die. Rambo players were the ones who got kicked from servers.

EA did this with Battlefield after Bad Company 1 and it royally pissed off people like me who did not want a dumbed down game. So they back pedaled and shifted more of the classic gameplay to hardcore mode.

If Muse is part trying to attract larger audience and increase retention among new players by catering to twitch players, then the only hope we have is they patch in an actual veteran mode where many of the issues are resolved. We can play a more flexible game while they play restrictionfest.

[shaelyn]

You, my good sir, have earned a place on my "I must crew with you" list. Singing Still Alive is hilarious XD

Miss, actually, and I look forward to it.

Everyone finds joy in different aspects of the game, there's no arguing that.

no, there isn't any arguing that.  frankly, it looks to me like the player base is split down the middle in their opinions, and neither one is wrong.  ...and no, the new matchmaking system is really not making anyone happy - and I'm pretty sure Muse is aware of that.

Frankly, at first I thought matchmaker should be largely to make quick play more prominent for those who don't want to search.  when I actually got my hands on it in the dev app, I was pretty much shocked and at the time, suspected I'd have to drop the game.  this game has a great community, and with all the restrictions to balance the matches, it pulls the community aspect out of the game.  when Howard told me it was to prevent stomping, I loosened up on my stance quite a bit...but yeah, it's not working, and I fear the kind of sacrifices that'll have to be made for it to work even decently, let alone well.
the singing match was just an example...  here's perhaps something easier to relate to:  I work really well under captains that give me a lot of direction.  I have several pilots on my friend's list that I fly with regularly because they divvy up roles between the crew well or keep in constant communication about what they need done when.  those are typically the matches I thrive in.  so yeah, I still want to be able to crew with the people that, when I'm flying with them, we got some kind of good chemistry or flow or direction, whatever you want to call it, and I (if not the rest of the crew too) kick more butt as a result.  there's a lot of different situations in the game that make it rewarding or fun, and I have greater potential to have the rewarding or fun experience with flexibility than with balance.

argh.  the way to appease both is probably to have two separate systems that don't really interact with each other (a match list that doesn't show matchmaking lobbies, and matchmaking doesn't fill in to the match list unless the person using matchmaking ticks a checkbox that says they don't care about balance and the matchmaking lobbies are all full), but our player base is wayyyyyyyyyy too small for that one.  I dunno though, maybe that's a start of an idea of something that can be done (and a nightmare to program, probably).  if matchmaker kept up a match or two that could only be filled by matchmaker, not crew form or anything else, and those using the matchmaker could select that as their preferred match option, just like they can select 2v2 or Crazy King, that could be a thing.  or if the all the lobbies that matchmaker makes are restrictive, and only the custom matches aren't - and they stay not restricted when opened to matchmaker - again with the preference thing to include custom matches in match maker's search.
anyway.  I'm trying to pull ideas out to make both sides happy and it's probably not going to work, but I'm trying, anyway.

[Dementio]

I think part of the problem with Matchmaking is just how most of us are used something completely different from the game.
We were hoping from lobby to lobby to find a ship we like to play on, a crew to pilot for, a map to enjoy, to find a balanced match. We were sitting in lobbies, swapping around, making custom lobbies with silly names, had all the time in the world inside the lobbies, more often than not even too much time.
We joined on friends, left lobbies and running matches, joined running matches and spectated, just because.

MM ereases all our previous experiences and wants to force us to enjoy the new restrictive version on the same or even higher level, which is just not possible, at least for now. If flexibility stays, matchmaking will not work, so something has to change.

As I see it, the options are:
Revert back to the lobby list system. Probably not going to happen if Muse wants to keep their performance.
Allow players to not do anything in lobbies, but stay on their own team, which will make spectating only possible through joining as an actual spectater. Currently one is not able to swap around like one wants and can't just switch to the enemy teams crew/captain slot unless they switch to spectator first. (I am actually not 100% sure, because I didn't bother figuring out when you can switch to another slot and when not). Joining on friends here should not be possible when they are in a lobby, since it could change the balance. Joining friends when they are in a queue could be a thing though.
Allow players to do everything they could do before once they are in a lobby. As this will involve swapping of all kinds it is as problematic as the old lobby system as it has the potential to destroy the balance MM has created, if any balance was created at all. Although if MM manages to put similar skilled players into one lobby, how much balance can be destroyed, how bad would it really be to allow players to swap with anybody they want in the same lobby? (Excluding friends joining the lobby on their own free wil.l)

Doing 30% this and 57% that doesn't work out.

Features that hurt balance
...
Lobby leaving without penalty

I doubt that leaving lobby with a penalty will improve balance.


And I too am a victim of joining as a second gunner thanks to matchmaking, it even said gunners are a needed class!

[Mezhu]

@Shaelyn,Greenbreeze

None of the restrictions proposed above actually disallow you to play with your friends. Instead of friend joining lobbies or mid-match, one of you would simply have to wait a bit for the other to finish and then queue up together. Voila, now you're both playing together AND promoting healthy game balance and quality. I don't have any idea as to why everyone considers this such a huge compromise that would apparently destroy the so-called community aspect of the game and whatnot.

As for the 'but I only want to play 4 harpoon mobulas and mm wont let me!' argument, the answer is custom games. Get your friends who enjoy that kind of thing, host a custom game, have fun the way you want to have fun. You want it to be public because you also enjoy meeting strangers while doing your thing? Amazing, utilize the global chat and advertise your custom lobby.

If these were serious reasons for a self-respecting game not to have matchmaking or to impelement is so badly crippled, Dota 2 wouldn't have matchmaking because some people want to play 'all mid rikimaru-only' games, and some others can't stand the thought of their friends being in a game which they can't join right away. These examples are outside the norm and not what the average game is supposed to look like or actually looks like. To be absolutely honest I feel like the game's potential's been held back because of our (the community's) very very weird expectations.

[shaelyn]

@Shaelyn,Greenbreeze

None of the restrictions proposed above actually disallow you to play with your friends. Instead of friend joining lobbies or mid-match, one of you would simply have to wait a bit for the other to finish and then queue up together. Voila, now you're both playing together AND promoting healthy game balance and quality. I don't have any idea as to why everyone considers this such a huge compromise that would apparently destroy the so-called community aspect of the game and whatnot.

yeah, what you're suggesting is doable.  but if people were complaining about having to wait before with "lobbies of Icarus" ...ugh.  that's just frustrating.  let me explain this one:
on the old system, on several occasions, I'd start in a lobby alone.  and then one of my clanmates finds me and hops in.  and then another.  and another.  slowly but surely, half the lobby fills with Clan Clan - any takers?  <3  and by the time it gets to that point, of course, a custom match is going to be the better option...but what's the point of going through the trouble of making a custom match and waiting for it to fill when another clannie is going to try to hop in halfway through the next match, and as a group, we have to do the whole thing yet again?  and how many times are we going to have to crew form in order to keep playing with each other as a group?
for how frustrating that situation would get, for how much time would be spent waiting while not even in a lobby...ugh.

[GreenBreeze]

@Shaelyn,Greenbreeze

None of the restrictions proposed above actually disallow you to play with your friends. Instead of friend joining lobbies or mid-match, one of you would simply have to wait a bit for the other to finish and then queue up together. Voila, now you're both playing together AND promoting healthy game balance and quality. I don't have any idea as to why everyone considers this such a huge compromise that would apparently destroy the so-called community aspect of the game and whatnot.

As for the 'but I only want to play 4 harpoon mobulas and mm wont let me!' argument, the answer is custom games. Get your friends who enjoy that kind of thing, host a custom game, have fun the way you want to have fun. You want it to be public because you also enjoy meeting strangers while doing your thing? Amazing, utilize the global chat and advertise your custom lobby.

If these were serious reasons for a self-respecting game not to have matchmaking or to impelement is so badly crippled, Dota 2 wouldn't have matchmaking because some people want to play 'all mid rikimaru-only' games, and some others can't stand the thought of their friends being in a game which they can't join right away. These examples are outside the norm and not what the average game is supposed to look like or actually looks like. To be absolutely honest I feel like the game's potential's been held back because of our (the community's) very very weird expectations.

No, the restrictions do not make it impossible to play the game with my friends but they do not make it easy either. I find the whole experience to be rather frustrating. I am used to having a certain level of limited control and trying to figure out a way to do something that was easy to do before only to find that now it cannot be done is quite frustrating. It seems that lobby waiting time has been replaced with MM limbo waiting time. Starting a match with the old system resulted in it filling up with a mixture of people from your friends list and random people you never met before eventually if you were patient. Now you can't expect a Custom Game to ever fill. Custom matches are only good if you have enough people around that you know and can get them all to fill a lobby with you, which is pretty rare for me.

I agree that custom matches is where you should create a 4 harpoon mobula lobby, however I disagree that you can expect to fill that lobby through global advertisement. With the old system every person who viewed the lobby list would see my game listed in there and I might get enough takers. If I have to advertise in global chat that greatly reduces the number of people who will see it from the get-go. Not everyone bothers to look at global chat, but almost everyone who wants to play a game will see a game I have listed in the lobby list. This also allows me to do something else while I wait for the lobby to fill if I want, instead of spamming global in an attempt to fill the last boat.

I don't think it's quite fair to compare Dota 2 matchmaking to GOI matchmaking. A quick google search tells me that as of 2012 the user base was over 2.5 million with around 350k simultaneous users. I would say that is a substantially larger pool to draw from for a matchmaking system and it's no wonder that they can better refine the behavior of their matchmaker.

I would wager that if GOI had even half that number we would all love the new MM. What it all boils down to is that the size of the playerbase in GOI cannot really support a MM. It might work okay during the times of day with more activity, but to have MM during the times when there are only 50 people playing the game seems pretty silly to me.

[redria]

A proposal.


2 Systems. Matchmaking and Custom Games (MM and CG).


In Matchmaking, you can queue up alone or with friends to be placed in a new somewhat balanced match. You are stuck where you get placed. You can leave, but it penalizes you (experience or lockout from MM or something). You play the match. Afterwards, it throws you back in the main menu every time.

From there you can reform your crew (plus or minus any new friends) and rejoin the queue for a new match. You can specify specific criteria like game type and class, and if you do you will eventually get them, though it will take longer.

If someone wants to join you, there are spectator slots where they can join and watch you play until the match ends. Then they can join your crew form for the next game.

It is a simple way for a person to go online and play a single game with little to no hassle of having to look through a list of lobbies and hope something interests them. Maybe the MM can have the tab flash so you can tab out and browse the internet until you get placed in a match.


In CG you can create a custom game with all of your own settings. You can invite friends. Friends can join on you. You can advertise in global chat and people can join on you from there. In all aspects, it is an old style lobby from the lobby list, you just don't have a lobby list to pick from. People have to actively join on you.

The MM will never place people in your match. This is your custom game. You are responsible for filling it if you think you really need a lobby just for yourself or your idea.

After your match ends, you go back to your lobby just like you used to, to play another round of your custom game. You still won't be part of the MM system, and you won't be. Matchmaker is not responsible for taking care of your custom lobby.


In essence, matchmaking is for when you just want to play the game. You can socialize. You can try to play with friends when you can. You can have fun. But you are joining up because you explicitly want to play the game, and you can expect matches to start in a timely manner.
Custom games would be for when you have some idea that you think would be fun, or you want to have a match between 2 teams (competitive), or you want to do something goofy or want to try something. Custom games will have no restrictions other than you have to fill them yourselves.