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Problems with matchmaking

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Dementio:
I think part of the problem with Matchmaking is just how most of us are used something completely different from the game.
We were hoping from lobby to lobby to find a ship we like to play on, a crew to pilot for, a map to enjoy, to find a balanced match. We were sitting in lobbies, swapping around, making custom lobbies with silly names, had all the time in the world inside the lobbies, more often than not even too much time.
We joined on friends, left lobbies and running matches, joined running matches and spectated, just because.

MM ereases all our previous experiences and wants to force us to enjoy the new restrictive version on the same or even higher level, which is just not possible, at least for now. If flexibility stays, matchmaking will not work, so something has to change.

As I see it, the options are:
Revert back to the lobby list system. Probably not going to happen if Muse wants to keep their performance.
Allow players to not do anything in lobbies, but stay on their own team, which will make spectating only possible through joining as an actual spectater. Currently one is not able to swap around like one wants and can't just switch to the enemy teams crew/captain slot unless they switch to spectator first. (I am actually not 100% sure, because I didn't bother figuring out when you can switch to another slot and when not). Joining on friends here should not be possible when they are in a lobby, since it could change the balance. Joining friends when they are in a queue could be a thing though.
Allow players to do everything they could do before once they are in a lobby. As this will involve swapping of all kinds it is as problematic as the old lobby system as it has the potential to destroy the balance MM has created, if any balance was created at all. Although if MM manages to put similar skilled players into one lobby, how much balance can be destroyed, how bad would it really be to allow players to swap with anybody they want in the same lobby? (Excluding friends joining the lobby on their own free wil.l)

Doing 30% this and 57% that doesn't work out.



--- Quote from: Keyvias on October 24, 2014, 02:05:21 pm ---Features that hurt balance
...
Lobby leaving without penalty

--- End quote ---

I doubt that leaving lobby with a penalty will improve balance.


And I too am a victim of joining as a second gunner thanks to matchmaking, it even said gunners are a needed class!

Mezhu:
@Shaelyn,Greenbreeze

None of the restrictions proposed above actually disallow you to play with your friends. Instead of friend joining lobbies or mid-match, one of you would simply have to wait a bit for the other to finish and then queue up together. Voila, now you're both playing together AND promoting healthy game balance and quality. I don't have any idea as to why everyone considers this such a huge compromise that would apparently destroy the so-called community aspect of the game and whatnot.

As for the 'but I only want to play 4 harpoon mobulas and mm wont let me!' argument, the answer is custom games. Get your friends who enjoy that kind of thing, host a custom game, have fun the way you want to have fun. You want it to be public because you also enjoy meeting strangers while doing your thing? Amazing, utilize the global chat and advertise your custom lobby.

If these were serious reasons for a self-respecting game not to have matchmaking or to impelement is so badly crippled, Dota 2 wouldn't have matchmaking because some people want to play 'all mid rikimaru-only' games, and some others can't stand the thought of their friends being in a game which they can't join right away. These examples are outside the norm and not what the average game is supposed to look like or actually looks like. To be absolutely honest I feel like the game's potential's been held back because of our (the community's) very very weird expectations.

shaelyn:

--- Quote from: Mezhu on October 25, 2014, 12:17:32 pm ---@Shaelyn,Greenbreeze

None of the restrictions proposed above actually disallow you to play with your friends. Instead of friend joining lobbies or mid-match, one of you would simply have to wait a bit for the other to finish and then queue up together. Voila, now you're both playing together AND promoting healthy game balance and quality. I don't have any idea as to why everyone considers this such a huge compromise that would apparently destroy the so-called community aspect of the game and whatnot.

--- End quote ---

yeah, what you're suggesting is doable.  but if people were complaining about having to wait before with "lobbies of Icarus" ...ugh.  that's just frustrating.  let me explain this one:
on the old system, on several occasions, I'd start in a lobby alone.  and then one of my clanmates finds me and hops in.  and then another.  and another.  slowly but surely, half the lobby fills with Clan Clan - any takers?  <3  and by the time it gets to that point, of course, a custom match is going to be the better option...but what's the point of going through the trouble of making a custom match and waiting for it to fill when another clannie is going to try to hop in halfway through the next match, and as a group, we have to do the whole thing yet again?  and how many times are we going to have to crew form in order to keep playing with each other as a group?
for how frustrating that situation would get, for how much time would be spent waiting while not even in a lobby...ugh.

GreenBreeze:

--- Quote from: Mezhu on October 25, 2014, 12:17:32 pm ---@Shaelyn,Greenbreeze

None of the restrictions proposed above actually disallow you to play with your friends. Instead of friend joining lobbies or mid-match, one of you would simply have to wait a bit for the other to finish and then queue up together. Voila, now you're both playing together AND promoting healthy game balance and quality. I don't have any idea as to why everyone considers this such a huge compromise that would apparently destroy the so-called community aspect of the game and whatnot.

As for the 'but I only want to play 4 harpoon mobulas and mm wont let me!' argument, the answer is custom games. Get your friends who enjoy that kind of thing, host a custom game, have fun the way you want to have fun. You want it to be public because you also enjoy meeting strangers while doing your thing? Amazing, utilize the global chat and advertise your custom lobby.

If these were serious reasons for a self-respecting game not to have matchmaking or to impelement is so badly crippled, Dota 2 wouldn't have matchmaking because some people want to play 'all mid rikimaru-only' games, and some others can't stand the thought of their friends being in a game which they can't join right away. These examples are outside the norm and not what the average game is supposed to look like or actually looks like. To be absolutely honest I feel like the game's potential's been held back because of our (the community's) very very weird expectations.

--- End quote ---

No, the restrictions do not make it impossible to play the game with my friends but they do not make it easy either. I find the whole experience to be rather frustrating. I am used to having a certain level of limited control and trying to figure out a way to do something that was easy to do before only to find that now it cannot be done is quite frustrating. It seems that lobby waiting time has been replaced with MM limbo waiting time. Starting a match with the old system resulted in it filling up with a mixture of people from your friends list and random people you never met before eventually if you were patient. Now you can't expect a Custom Game to ever fill. Custom matches are only good if you have enough people around that you know and can get them all to fill a lobby with you, which is pretty rare for me.

I agree that custom matches is where you should create a 4 harpoon mobula lobby, however I disagree that you can expect to fill that lobby through global advertisement. With the old system every person who viewed the lobby list would see my game listed in there and I might get enough takers. If I have to advertise in global chat that greatly reduces the number of people who will see it from the get-go. Not everyone bothers to look at global chat, but almost everyone who wants to play a game will see a game I have listed in the lobby list. This also allows me to do something else while I wait for the lobby to fill if I want, instead of spamming global in an attempt to fill the last boat.

I don't think it's quite fair to compare Dota 2 matchmaking to GOI matchmaking. A quick google search tells me that as of 2012 the user base was over 2.5 million with around 350k simultaneous users. I would say that is a substantially larger pool to draw from for a matchmaking system and it's no wonder that they can better refine the behavior of their matchmaker.

I would wager that if GOI had even half that number we would all love the new MM. What it all boils down to is that the size of the playerbase in GOI cannot really support a MM. It might work okay during the times of day with more activity, but to have MM during the times when there are only 50 people playing the game seems pretty silly to me.

redria:
A proposal.


2 Systems. Matchmaking and Custom Games (MM and CG).


In Matchmaking, you can queue up alone or with friends to be placed in a new somewhat balanced match. You are stuck where you get placed. You can leave, but it penalizes you (experience or lockout from MM or something). You play the match. Afterwards, it throws you back in the main menu every time.

From there you can reform your crew (plus or minus any new friends) and rejoin the queue for a new match. You can specify specific criteria like game type and class, and if you do you will eventually get them, though it will take longer.

If someone wants to join you, there are spectator slots where they can join and watch you play until the match ends. Then they can join your crew form for the next game.

It is a simple way for a person to go online and play a single game with little to no hassle of having to look through a list of lobbies and hope something interests them. Maybe the MM can have the tab flash so you can tab out and browse the internet until you get placed in a match.


In CG you can create a custom game with all of your own settings. You can invite friends. Friends can join on you. You can advertise in global chat and people can join on you from there. In all aspects, it is an old style lobby from the lobby list, you just don't have a lobby list to pick from. People have to actively join on you.

The MM will never place people in your match. This is your custom game. You are responsible for filling it if you think you really need a lobby just for yourself or your idea.

After your match ends, you go back to your lobby just like you used to, to play another round of your custom game. You still won't be part of the MM system, and you won't be. Matchmaker is not responsible for taking care of your custom lobby.


In essence, matchmaking is for when you just want to play the game. You can socialize. You can try to play with friends when you can. You can have fun. But you are joining up because you explicitly want to play the game, and you can expect matches to start in a timely manner.
Custom games would be for when you have some idea that you think would be fun, or you want to have a match between 2 teams (competitive), or you want to do something goofy or want to try something. Custom games will have no restrictions other than you have to fill them yourselves.

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