Another one of those 'gunner balance' threads.

[Zirilfer]

This may have been brought up before, but what if instead of giving the gunner an ability beyond multiple ammo types, we add additional ammo types to make multiple ammo's more viable.

Here's a few ideas I'll throw around

Shatter rounds: Gun damage is significantly traded off for added shatter damage, for when things aren't going your way and you need a disable (great for flak, banshee and mortar to get some extra utility when the hull won't fall)

Explosive rounds: Like shatter rounds but with explosive damage, great for balloon poppers and hull strippers to get a little utility once their job is done

Reinforced rounds: Your gun takes less damage, for those merc/art assaults as you move through, sort of a reverse heatsink

A front ship specific mounted captains gun: The captain controls this gun with lmb, but it only shoots straight, anyone could load this gun, but it may be the gunner if other ammo types/load locations don't synergize well with the mounted gun

I think the shatter and explosive rounds works best, as you're likely to use that on otherwise 1 ammo type guns like gat, carro, mortar, banshee, maybe even bring merc off the charged rounds for once.

Let me know what you guys think

[Mezhu]

I do like the idea of having ammo types that add a minor amount of a specific damage type. It's what incendiary does already practically- you lose a ton of dpc and dps but part of the damage dealt is instead fire (conditionally; if you're hitting unsprayed components, doesn't work against permahull), making guns otherwise ineffective vs balloon, such as the gat, somewhat more viable. The trade-off isn't really beneficial but under a few very specific circumstances it could work to an extend.

Awkm's concern with the suggestion is that such a change could cause balance issues- which is indeed true. However the numbers could be toyed with until there's a point where e.g. using the 'explosive' ammo type on an explosive weapon would actually decrease your damage (just as incendiary is extremely ineffective for the flamethrower), and using it on any other gun wouldn't transform it into the ultimate finisher but just make it less pointless to shoot versus armorless targets.

I actually think this effect could be implemented as part of many current ammo that find limited use. Burst for example is of almost no use to non-AoE weapons, and not really optimal on any gun other than the Artemis. If there was a damage modifier such as -15% primary damage, +5% of secondary damage dealt as explosive, it would immediately be viable in a number of different guns and scenarios where it could be used for some extra explosive power, mostly in disable-focused builds, without losing it's effectiveness on Artemis at the same time. Likewise, Charged finds very very limited use, mostly on high damage/low clip guns- a similar use could be found for it.

[GeoRmr]

Burst rounds are OPTIMAL on the hwacha, flamer, lumberjack and mine launcher...

[Mezhu]

Not the point

[GeoRmr]

Yes it is, you're suggesting replacing burst rounds entirely with an ammo type that modifies damage type, how about we keep burst rounds as they are (useful on many guns) and add another ammo type that modifies damage type.

[Mezhu]

You can disagree on which guns burst is optimal on, that's not the point of the discussion and I was wrong to mention it, since always people end up disagreeing on what they want where and why.

What you should be focusing on is the idea of ammo that modify damage types instead of looking for minor points to argue about.

[GeoRmr]

I'm not sure you read my last post... Either way, we should be focusing on gunner tools not ammo types ^_^

[SirNotlag]

An idea I dont see very often is adding tools that work like ammo but aren't, they require sitting on the gun but can be used in tandem with a special ammo.

One idea is a tool for gunners that hopefully would not require much work. Call it a "reload crank" "Auto loader" whatever does not matter right now, but it would be selected exactly like the other gunner tools by sitting on a gun and selecting it to have its effect no new UIs or Models or anything just its little grey picture at the bottom of the screen. While it is selected the gun reloads 35% faster or something it would take some tweaking and math to get it to a fair and balanced point, If the gunner left the tool active when the reload was complete it starts another reload, meaning the gunner just wasted time adding in a form of risk reward for the use of this tool. That also separates the good gunners from the great gunners, as a great one switches to this tool immediately as the reload starts and waits till the last second to switch to his ammo type maximizing DPS.

This way with the current system an engineer could take this tool but be confined to only using regular ammo, while a gunner can still use specialized ammos with this tool. This increases reload without being some magical passive as it would be a very active skill the gunners perform sitting on the gun rather than twiddling their thumbs, staying true to the spirit of GOI.

Another idea could be a "lock down" or something, using it locks the aim for the gun and lasts 1 second after deselecting it but it removes all spray from firing just like heavy ammo, but the weapon cant be turned while its being used but you could throw in lesmok or something to help you hit far off targets.

Third idea is something which has been suggested before where a weapon cant fire but gets large buff to armour making it harder to disable, and it lasts like 3 seconds after being deselected.

I personally think tools like this would be a good idea and make gunners more fun and versatile. 

[Alistair MacBain]

Ideas exists but due to the fact that adding a new mechanic takes more type than twitching and adding ammo types its pushed back till its proven that more niche ammo types dont work.

[GeoRmr]

Ideas exists but due to the fact that adding a new mechanic takes more type than twitching and adding ammo types its pushed back till its proven that more niche ammo types dont work.

Talking with awkm there isn't even an issue adding new mechanics, the framework for adding more stat altering tools is in-place already, in most cases all they would have to do is take the existing buff hammer or chemspray, copy the item to gunner and change w/e the stats that they buff or effect they apply. At most they would put some pressure on the art team to add some new models and do some animations, not that they would have to, a re texture would work just as well.

I still think its funny that people think new ammo types will make gunner more viable, its like they don't have any idea why its not considered viable in the first place! XD

[Hoja Lateralus]

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

The solutions people suggest are big because the problem and its' effect on gameplay is big and (partly) makes more and more people leave game for ever which leads to less players which leads to more players leaving... you get the idea, eh? Lately I find it harder and harder to play GOIO and I'm not saying it's only because of role-design (or even gunner-design) flaw, but it sure adds up to the "bad pile".

[Richard LeMoon]

I still think removing any DPS increase from the buff tool, and just have it make guns turn faster is the way to go. I don't think there should be any tool , gunner or otherwise, that increases the damage of a gun. That is a simple change to start with.

[HamsterIV]

One thing to consider when buffing gunner tools is will they buff the engineer class? Since the engineer class has access to one gunner tool giving him something that can be used off the gun would give the engineer 5 tools (including spyglass) when running about. Many main engineers never touch the gun, or would be fine shooting vanilla if they get an added bonus in their main roll.

[Richard LeMoon]

Exactly.

[James T. Kirk]

As long as gunner tools can only be used on guns, I don't see how it would boost engineering.