Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: James T. Kirk on September 26, 2014, 07:58:39 am
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It's not exactly a secret that the gunner isn't quite up to par with the other two classes. You need a highly specialized build to not require a pilot, and oftentimes, triple engineer works just as well (sometimes better) than engie/engie/gunner.
What I am saying should be no huge surprise to anyone, and most of you at this point are probably wondering what suggestion could possibly be new.
Well, I've been fiddling around with this idea for a little bit now, bouncing it off of a few of my fellow Cakes, and even a few Dev buddies, and I think it's time to bring it to the general opinion of the Forum.
Gunner tools.
Not gunner ammo, gunner tools.
For probably about 85% of the guns in this game, one ammo type is enough to get the gun working at maximum efficacy. Every engineering job needs a MINIMUM of two tools (repair and fire suppression) but for maximum efficiency, they need 3 tools (rebuild, repair, and fire suppression). Pilots need as many tools as possible to out maneuver their opponents (with the possible exception of a sniper galleon).
Imagine how OP it would be if an engineer could take 4 tools.
Imagine the shift in gameplay if a pilot could bring an extra tool.
Giving a gunner a 4th ammo would change next to nothing.
That's because everything the gunner has to choose from is far too similar.
Every class has a large selection of tools to utalize with a few scattered specialized tools. The Buff Hammer and Spyglass come to mind.
If we gave the gunner a few tools to use off the gun, I believe that would encourage the necessity of more than one gunner tool, AKA, bringing gunners.
Let's take an example.
The most balanced thing I've been able to come up with is a "greace can." You apply the greace to the gun similar to how one uses a buff hammer, and it charges up a bar to the left (but make it blue), that once fills, it activates, allowing the gun to be turned faster. You could then use an ammo ON TOP of the greace. Engineers could only do one or the other, and a gunner would have an advantage over a gungineer.
Applied effects would be less drastic than gunner ammo, but would have no downsides.
Applied effects run out of time, just like a buff hammer effect.
Now. I open the floor to you, community.
Stupid idea?
Meh idea?
Game saving idea?
Let's see what you all think.
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Muse has already stated that they will never give the Gunner a tool to use while not on a Gun as it breaks paradigm. Likewise, new tools for the gunner in general will not happen before new ammo types and tweaks to current ammo types are tried FIRST. This is far from the first time this idea has been tossed around.
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https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,4009.msg69386.html#msg69386
Again, a new tool TYPE needs to be done for the gunner. Like a secondary activatable while on a gun.
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Imagine how OP it would be if an engineer could take 4 tools.
Imagine the shift in gameplay if a pilot could bring an extra tool.
Giving a gunner a 4th ammo would change next to nothing.
Excellent point, although 4-slot roles would be a neat idea for some (closed) event. Tournament maybe? I'm afraid it can be pain in the ass to implement and the effect wouldn't be big enough.
I think a game-changer could be the ammo that changes the secondary type of damage on the gun.
Muse has already stated that they will never give the Gunner a tool to use while not on a Gun as it breaks paradigm. Likewise, new tools for the gunner in general will not happen before new ammo types and tweaks to current ammo types are tried FIRST. This is far from the first time this idea has been tossed around.
I'm afraid this is right.
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In the pilot slot, we have tools you can use off the helm, the engineer has access to tools that do not repair.
I don't see why the gunner has to be so specialized.
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The spy glass already breaks this paradigm as it is a pilot tool that can be used off the helm. Muse wants the gunner class to be the newbie class despite of the incredibly negative reaction powdermonkeys get when they join an established crew. I would welcome giving the gunner more versatility off the gun but that would involve making the gunner game deeper.
I am of the opinion that the engineer, not the gunner, should be the newbie/default class. It is easy to train a new engineer on ship routes than it is to train a new gunner on leading, shot drop, and inherited momentum. Engineers are pretty interchangeable and can be position swapped if one engineer is under performing due to lag or inexperience.
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I am of the opinion that the engineer, not the gunner, should be the newbie/default class. It is easy to train a new engineer on ship routes than it is to train a new gunner on leading, shot drop, and inherited momentum. Engineers are pretty interchangeable and can be position swapped if one engineer is under performing due to lag or inexperience.
Dude, this. I have such a hard time convincing new players to switch to engineer. Everyone just wants to shoot guns all the time, and I don't think a lot of new players understand that engineers CAN and DO also shoot guns, and that you are more useful having tools than ammo types. I also think that in order to be a good gunner, you also need to know how to engineer, as your job as a gunner is to make the enemy engineers unable to repair, so in order to be as effective as you can be, you need to be aware of what you are damaging and when to make it hard for them to repair. I don't like the idea of gunner being the "newbie class" because people just get stuck in the "all I do is shoot guns all the time" mindset and then never want to change.
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Back to topic.
We'll just have to wait until MUSE sees they have to break their paradigm again in order to fix things.
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Why the resistance to break the paradigm? It seems pretty arbitrary to say that they don't want a gunner to have tools other than ammo. Isn't balance more important than all classes functioning with the exact same "I have three tools that can only be used on helm/gun/component" paradigm?
Having gunner be a more viable option would really cut down on arguments with powder monkeys, too...
I think the very fact that there have been SO MANY of these threads is pretty indicative that the community at large really wants/needs a change to the paradigm.
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Why the resistance to break the paradigm? It seems pretty arbitrary to say that they don't want a gunner to have tools other than ammo. Isn't balance more important than all classes functioning with the exact same "I have three tools that can only be used on helm/gun/component" paradigm?
Having gunner be a more viable option would really cut down on arguments with powder monkeys, too...
I think the very fact that there have been SO MANY of these threads is pretty indicative that the community at large really wants/needs a change to the paradigm.
And yet they already break the paradigm with the rangefinder and spyglass, why not give the gunner extra tools and just redefine the paradigm it would even be neater than the current mess!
+1
If anyone's interested here's the link to my original thread about how new extreme ammo types solves nothing, and how gunner tools are the way forward, (not that anyone in muse really cares about player opinions, they only pretend to) https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,4125.0.html
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Really, just adding a second tool slot to Gunners would solve a lot of ewwwww-a-gunner problems. No special 'gunner' tools. Maybe some Engineer tools that would help with the guns, though. That and getting rid of DPS buff increases.
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most of the gunner balance idea, I have mixed feelings about.
this is the only idea I can 100% get behind that I've seen so far. no added slots, just bring in a couple of tools that are gunner-specific and add them as an alternate option to a third ammo type.
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Something as simple as:
- Dynabuff Hammer no longer works on guns
- Gun Buffer (gunner's tool) buffs guns in the exact same way Dynabuff Hammer used to
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Honestly, passive buffs that are straight performance upgrades would be helpful for gunner usability, such as an ammo bag that increases the clip size of the gun you're on but forces you to carry one less ammo type, or WD-40 that lets you turn the gun faster while you're on it but with the same 'one less ammo type' consequence. That way the gunner can shoot longer and track faster but still keep an ammo type. The popular consensus is that you only need one ammo type anyways.
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Something as simple as:
- Dynabuff Hammer no longer works on guns
- Gun Buffer (gunner's tool) buffs guns in the exact same way Dynabuff Hammer used to
THIS.
*10
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This may have been brought up before, but what if instead of giving the gunner an ability beyond multiple ammo types, we add additional ammo types to make multiple ammo's more viable.
Here's a few ideas I'll throw around
Shatter rounds: Gun damage is significantly traded off for added shatter damage, for when things aren't going your way and you need a disable (great for flak, banshee and mortar to get some extra utility when the hull won't fall)
Explosive rounds: Like shatter rounds but with explosive damage, great for balloon poppers and hull strippers to get a little utility once their job is done
Reinforced rounds: Your gun takes less damage, for those merc/art assaults as you move through, sort of a reverse heatsink
A front ship specific mounted captains gun: The captain controls this gun with lmb, but it only shoots straight, anyone could load this gun, but it may be the gunner if other ammo types/load locations don't synergize well with the mounted gun
I think the shatter and explosive rounds works best, as you're likely to use that on otherwise 1 ammo type guns like gat, carro, mortar, banshee, maybe even bring merc off the charged rounds for once.
Let me know what you guys think
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I do like the idea of having ammo types that add a minor amount of a specific damage type. It's what incendiary does already practically- you lose a ton of dpc and dps but part of the damage dealt is instead fire (conditionally; if you're hitting unsprayed components, doesn't work against permahull), making guns otherwise ineffective vs balloon, such as the gat, somewhat more viable. The trade-off isn't really beneficial but under a few very specific circumstances it could work to an extend.
Awkm's concern with the suggestion is that such a change could cause balance issues- which is indeed true. However the numbers could be toyed with until there's a point where e.g. using the 'explosive' ammo type on an explosive weapon would actually decrease your damage (just as incendiary is extremely ineffective for the flamethrower), and using it on any other gun wouldn't transform it into the ultimate finisher but just make it less pointless to shoot versus armorless targets.
I actually think this effect could be implemented as part of many current ammo that find limited use. Burst for example is of almost no use to non-AoE weapons, and not really optimal on any gun other than the Artemis. If there was a damage modifier such as -15% primary damage, +5% of secondary damage dealt as explosive, it would immediately be viable in a number of different guns and scenarios where it could be used for some extra explosive power, mostly in disable-focused builds, without losing it's effectiveness on Artemis at the same time. Likewise, Charged finds very very limited use, mostly on high damage/low clip guns- a similar use could be found for it.
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Burst rounds are OPTIMAL on the hwacha, flamer, lumberjack and mine launcher...
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Not the point
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Yes it is, you're suggesting replacing burst rounds entirely with an ammo type that modifies damage type, how about we keep burst rounds as they are (useful on many guns) and add another ammo type that modifies damage type.
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You can disagree on which guns burst is optimal on, that's not the point of the discussion and I was wrong to mention it, since always people end up disagreeing on what they want where and why.
What you should be focusing on is the idea of ammo that modify damage types instead of looking for minor points to argue about.
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I'm not sure you read my last post... Either way, we should be focusing on gunner tools not ammo types ^_^
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An idea I dont see very often is adding tools that work like ammo but aren't, they require sitting on the gun but can be used in tandem with a special ammo.
One idea is a tool for gunners that hopefully would not require much work. Call it a "reload crank" "Auto loader" whatever does not matter right now, but it would be selected exactly like the other gunner tools by sitting on a gun and selecting it to have its effect no new UIs or Models or anything just its little grey picture at the bottom of the screen. While it is selected the gun reloads 35% faster or something it would take some tweaking and math to get it to a fair and balanced point, If the gunner left the tool active when the reload was complete it starts another reload, meaning the gunner just wasted time adding in a form of risk reward for the use of this tool. That also separates the good gunners from the great gunners, as a great one switches to this tool immediately as the reload starts and waits till the last second to switch to his ammo type maximizing DPS.
This way with the current system an engineer could take this tool but be confined to only using regular ammo, while a gunner can still use specialized ammos with this tool. This increases reload without being some magical passive as it would be a very active skill the gunners perform sitting on the gun rather than twiddling their thumbs, staying true to the spirit of GOI.
Another idea could be a "lock down" or something, using it locks the aim for the gun and lasts 1 second after deselecting it but it removes all spray from firing just like heavy ammo, but the weapon cant be turned while its being used but you could throw in lesmok or something to help you hit far off targets.
Third idea is something which has been suggested before where a weapon cant fire but gets large buff to armour making it harder to disable, and it lasts like 3 seconds after being deselected.
I personally think tools like this would be a good idea and make gunners more fun and versatile.
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Ideas exists but due to the fact that adding a new mechanic takes more type than twitching and adding ammo types its pushed back till its proven that more niche ammo types dont work.
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Ideas exists but due to the fact that adding a new mechanic takes more type than twitching and adding ammo types its pushed back till its proven that more niche ammo types dont work.
Talking with awkm there isn't even an issue adding new mechanics, the framework for adding more stat altering tools is in-place already, in most cases all they would have to do is take the existing buff hammer or chemspray, copy the item to gunner and change w/e the stats that they buff or effect they apply. At most they would put some pressure on the art team to add some new models and do some animations, not that they would have to, a re texture would work just as well.
I still think its funny that people think new ammo types will make gunner more viable, its like they don't have any idea why its not considered viable in the first place! XD
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Desperate times call for desperate measures.
The solutions people suggest are big because the problem and its' effect on gameplay is big and (partly) makes more and more people leave game for ever which leads to less players which leads to more players leaving... you get the idea, eh? Lately I find it harder and harder to play GOIO and I'm not saying it's only because of role-design (or even gunner-design) flaw, but it sure adds up to the "bad pile".
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I still think removing any DPS increase from the buff tool, and just have it make guns turn faster is the way to go. I don't think there should be any tool , gunner or otherwise, that increases the damage of a gun. That is a simple change to start with.
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One thing to consider when buffing gunner tools is will they buff the engineer class? Since the engineer class has access to one gunner tool giving him something that can be used off the gun would give the engineer 5 tools (including spyglass) when running about. Many main engineers never touch the gun, or would be fine shooting vanilla if they get an added bonus in their main roll.
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Exactly.
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As long as gunner tools can only be used on guns, I don't see how it would boost engineering.
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As long as gunner tools can only be used on guns, I don't see how it would boost engineering.
Wouldn't boost engineering, it would boost the utility of the engineer class. If an engineer is improved by bringing new gunner tools, then the engineer is also buffed by these new tools, even if the engineer game remains the same.
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For example if there were a gunner tool that decreased reload time by hitting a gun with it from walk around the ship mode, Goldfish engineers would bring that for their one gunner slot and leave the gunner on the gun while they assisted in the fast load.
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As long as gunner tools can only be used on guns, I don't see how it would boost engineering.
Wouldn't boost engineering, it would boost the utility of the engineer class. If an engineer is improved by bringing new gunner tools, then the engineer is also buffed by these new tools, even if the engineer game remains the same.
So what you're saying is that adding new tools buffs the engineer? I disagree:
Say for example you make the buff hammer unable to buff guns, and add a gunner tool that buffs guns. An engineer would only be able to take an ammo type, or the gunner tool but not both. Now guns like the mercury/ heavy carronade/ heavy flak can be used by the gunner in combination with charged ammo for +55% damage, but only up to +30% by an engineer. As the game currently is engineers can take an ammo type and the buff tool and can do that +55% damage where a gunner can only viably do a maximum of +30% with the charged rounds. The same theory works if a new gunner tool is added that works like a buff hammer but increases rate of fire and can be used in combination with greased rounds.
And yes, this shit truly would increase the popularity/viability of the gunner class - not that its an issue imho.
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As an individual, the gunner with a buff tool in a ammo slot would have more DPS than the engineer. However this game is played in teams and two engineers can work in conjunction to get the same maximum dps as a gunner while having all the tankyness of two full repair engineers on the ship.
I am not saying making a buff tool for the gunner slot is a bad idea. In fact I quite like it, but there may be unintended side effects that will end up buffing a class that didn't need buffing.
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I quite like the idea of those side effects they would raise the skill cap of the team working together like a well oiled machine and I don't see a problem with that.
Provided the alterations do their intended task and make the gunner more effective at his job, so more builds work optimally with the 2 engineers and a gunner set up, rather than the 3 engineers, which I see very often.
3 engineer builds would still be viable and perhaps even more powerful than the 2 engineers and a gunner but only if there was some hardcore team orientation in it.
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Break The Paradigm!!!
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I quite like the idea of those side effects they would raise the skill cap of the team working together like a well oiled machine and I don't see a problem with that.
Provided the alterations do their intended task and make the gunner more effective at his job, so more builds work optimally with the 2 engineers and a gunner set up, rather than the 3 engineers, which I see very often.
3 engineer builds would still be viable and perhaps even more powerful than the 2 engineers and a gunner but only if there was some hardcore team orientation in it.
Who know, maybe even 2 gunner 1 engineer ships will become popular.