goio's great community

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Yesterday I was in a lobby and someone on the opposing team complimented our gunner on "his mining skills".  When they discovered I am not a he, the lobby collapsed into the chaos, immaturity, and offensive remarks that always come along with being a woman on the internet and especially in an online game.  I try to stick to flying with friends so that this occurs less often, but it is really frustrating to see that this is still so commonplace in a community that prides itself on being friendlier and better than other online games.

Women who play games are just people who play games.  Stop freaking out.  And no, you can't have my phone number.

Reminds me of women I used to run with back in WoW years ago. Did not even know they were female till finally they spoke. Absolutely terrified of being found out after experiences like this. When they found out we weren't psychos, they finally opened up.

Caught a little bit of it myself when I started in WoW. Had been recommended to start as a female toon since getting help was easier as one, or so I was told. I wasn't sure it was true till I saw it first hand. The sad part was, along with it came a lot of "Are you a girl?", "do you have a picture?", and even a few "do you cyber?" questions. Few people I quested with early on kept asking till I told them. When they found out I was a guy, they never quested with me again. Was one kid who was literally infatuated with my toon and after he discovered the truth, I never saw him log in again. The problems got less as time went but I learned to quickly state,"<guy not girl." Think the playerbase also over time realized that MMORPG sometimes means "Many Men Online Role Playing Girls."

[redria]

I've seen this stuff pop up a couple times and I always want to contribute, but I'm not sure how. As this is a discussion, maybe now is the best time to take a shot.

First, I'll say: Ladies, men, and anyone who identifies by anything else, if someone offends you - especially someone you know or spend time around more regularly - please let them know. Hopefully they will take it in stride an do their best to censor themselves around you. Eventually this would become second nature and start carrying over into other areas of their life. Then you reach the point where the offensive behavior is instinct and the person can instinctively pass it on to their children and, in the long run, help eliminate something.
Even if it doesn't go that far, knowing is half of the battle. If something doesn't compute as offensive for me, I won't realize that it is for someone else. Which ties into my next point, the discussion bit.



Regarding the OP (part 1), that is messed up. Maybe I don't pay attention enough since I haven't seen things as bad as you mention. But what you've experienced is not something that should ever be the case. I'm ashamed that it happens on GoIO enough for you to even have to post here.

Regarding the OP (part 2) and Andika's post, that is equally messed up, but I can delve a little deeper in to that.
Concept-wise, the idea of an exclusive group grates against what it is to be a social human. If you say you have a group and I can't participate, it bothers me, whether it is something I even need to be in or not. Conceptually I would feel mollified if there was an alternative group that was equally exclusive in the opposite direction.

Conceptually, there are no male exclusive groups. There are no male exclusive events. Your average guy, upon seeing a female exclusive event, would feel insulted. Certainly no reason to make a scene, but why are you being excluded? You are nice to people. You don't do or say anything offensive. Some of your female friends are going to be in it. But you can't.

Realistically you also have to look at the female perspective, and actually comprehend. Go in to a lobby and try to make a group. If you are successful, odds are you just made a male-exclusive group. You didn't try to. If a female was there you would have taken her too. But they weren't. Now imagine you are female looking for a group (and correct me if/when I'm wrong, please). Every group is inherently almost male exclusive. Not in name. Not in rule. But here you are trying to break in on the guy's club. Are you really welcome? Are you really welcomed, or just tolerated because female?

Genders do exist, and are especially noticeable in video games which are so predominately male. It is inevitable that a statistically significant percentage of females to play may at some point find the pre-existing groups to be equivalent to male-exclusive. In this light, making a female-exclusive group makes sense for relief. Explicitly making it exclusive makes sense. But it clashes with the male perspective that the male groups are not exclusive, so a female exclusive group seems like nonsense to some guys.

Long story short, guys don't understand the need for the group, and don't understand that they don't understand. Shame on us.



In the larger context, getting in to the ideas of yes-all-women and not-all-men, and the way men treat women in casual encounters in person and online.

From the male perspective. I feel safe walking alone. I never get random compliments on my appearance from strangers, but I would enjoy them. I am not a small man, and I'm pretty confident that if attacked I could probably fend off an attacker even without training. I never feel threatened.
"You complain about being complimented by strangers? What??"

From my perception of the female perspective from speaking with friends (please please please take this with a grain of salt. May be dramatized since I don't actually know). In general statistical terms, women are weaker/smaller than men physically. You are told stories from the news, the internet, from friends and family about attacks, sexual assault, rape, etc. Walking alone, the person giving you a smile and a compliment while passing by could be friendly, or could be wondering how best to get you alone. In person and online, comments could be either kind or threatening. You want to give someone the benefit of the doubt, but if you are wrong, it costs you so much.
"Of course I complain about getting complimented by strangers."

For guys, imagine that everyone has a gun - except you. People on the street. People in your work office. People online. Everyone. But you don't. Everyone else carries this around with them. Maybe they never use it in their life. But they could. Everyone always has this power except for you. And everyone knows it. Someone smiles at you on the street. Is that a friendly smile or a threatening smile? Someone actively threatens to shoot you. When can you feel safe? You can't live a life in fear. But you also can't be stupid. You go home to have some fun time online, but everyone there has guns. If you let them know you don't have one, everyone makes fun of you and threatens you. You try to make a group only for a few people you've met without guns and everyone with a gun gets up in arms (get it?) about being excluded.
Does that start to make sense?



I don't have an answer. Here or in the world as a bigger place. Girls, I'm sorry. Guys, acknowledge and try to understand.
We can't control anyone but ourselves, and if we aren't around when bad things happen we can't help that either. But we can do our best to be observant when we are around and defend what is right.


TL;DR: Guys, we don't even understand how much we don't understand. Read my analogy. Find a girl and talk to them about it with absolutely no condescending or insulting treatment of the girl who tries to explain.
Girls, we don't even realize how much we don't understand. It isn't an excuse, but if a guy asks you to explain and you can, please try to help us understand better.

[sparklerfish]

Men getting upset about a female gamer group is like white people getting upset that there's no "White History Month".

Male gamers inherently enjoy privileges that female gamers do not, even if you aren't conscious of them and aren't actually sexist yourself.  Here's a pretty well-articulated list (not written by me):
http://www.polygon.com/2014/4/23/5640678/playing-with-privilege-the-invisible-benefits-of-gaming-while-male

Nobody is trying to play the victim or beg for "protection" or be fragile damsels in distress that need strong men to rescue us.  Just bringing issues to light that are a big problem in the gaming community in general that also affect the community of Guns of Icarus, and asking that you do not be dismissive of issues that do disproportionately affect women.  Yes, anyone can be bullied or harassed, and no one is saying that isn't a problem as well, but women are subject to harassment merely for being women and subjected to harassment that targets their femaleness specifically.

[Lydia Litvyak]

Realistically you also have to look at the female perspective, and actually comprehend. Go in to a lobby and try to make a group. If you are successful, odds are you just made a male-exclusive group. You didn't try to. If a female was there you would have taken her too. But they weren't. Now imagine you are female looking for a group (and correct me if/when I'm wrong, please). Every group is inherently almost male exclusive. Not in name. Not in rule. But here you are trying to break in on the guy's club. Are you really welcome? Are you really welcomed, or just tolerated because female?

Genders do exist, and are especially noticeable in video games which are so predominately male. It is inevitable that a statistically significant percentage of females to play may at some point find the pre-existing groups to be equivalent to male-exclusive. In this light, making a female-exclusive group makes sense for relief. Explicitly making it exclusive makes sense. But it clashes with the male perspective that the male groups are not exclusive, so a female exclusive group seems like nonsense to some guys.

Long story short, guys don't understand the need for the group, and don't understand that they don't understand. Shame on us.

Please read everything redria wrote, especially this part.

[redria]

Please read everything redria wrote, especially this part.

It's hard, because I'll read some things that girls write on here and elsewhere and, even knowing and comprehending, it will really bother me until I take a moment to step back and take a second look. It is a hard subject to discuss with guys because our first instinct is indignation. I treat women well, so why is this something that is excluding me, or singling me out as a male? The point is that it both is and isn't, but simply because we aren't experiencing a lifetime of being treated even ever so slightly differently, our natural inclination is rejection of the problem.

As a guy probably the most important things you can do are:

• Understand and make sure you take a second look at situations whenever you feel slighted. The fact that you feel slighted indicates that you are probably rejecting the greater problem to focus on your own situation. This hurts the other party, keeps you in the dark, and does nothing to help the problem at large.
• Talk to your other male friends about it. Probably do it one-on-one if you can. You can probably expect annoyed responses. Use an analogy. Ask them to talk to their closest female friend, their mom, their sister, anyone. Ask them to do it seriously, with the intent to learn.

I can't prevent a troll if I'm not there. I don't think Lydia is asking me to go online and watch for trolls. Better reporting would help from everyone.
My responsibility in this time and this point in society is to be aware of my circumstances and the the circumstances of women in general. My responsibility is to listen for cues from my friends and family. If I hear something, the key is to not just let it slide. I fully admit, I'm not sure what I expect to hear, or how obvious it will be. But if I can have a heart-to-heart with at least one person and make them understand, then I will be contributing, a part of the path to a solution.

I realize I'm going a bit off on a much more broad tangent than the OP, but I think maybe that is the point. The problems here stem from the real world. If we better educate this community on how to respect a human as a human at all times, and to understand that they grew up in entirely different circumstances from ourselves, then the community will improve itself both online and in the real world.

If you've read all of these 2 posts, thank you. I hope it helped teach you something, male or female, or at least gave you a question to go ask somebody. The best answer you can have for yourself is honest, open, and respectful communication with the relevant gender. I'm not perfect. Nobody is. But we can only improve ourselves by expanding the horizons of our understanding of each other (god that sounds cheesy).

[Sammy B. T.]

I'm reminded of this cartoon



Working to be accountable to a greater standard is worthwhile to do even if you don't think the standards are too low. Either the harassment isn't a problem therefore actions taken to raise our standards are easy and in no way hard to do or the harassment is a problem and bettering ourselves solves an issue that needs to be solved.

Can't hurt. You hear something objectionable, just say something. Community peer pressure can be a force for good.

[Felkin]

I feel like this has destroyed the fun that was the community, it's not fun to sit there and watch people fight and bicker in lobbies or in the middle of matches because, something that shouldn't have happened, happened, however as a person, I would really like the community to just move on before it ends up shattering itself and further people get upset, I understand certain sects of the community are upset right now, but the arguments and fights are spilling over into the parts of the community who haven't even touched this, and have tried their best to stay neutral. We just need to pick up the pieces and move on gals/guys, its in the past and if we keep living in the past how can we live in present and think of the future?

"Life is one big road with lots of signs. So when you riding through the ruts, don't complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy. Don't bury your thoughts, put your vision to reality. Wake Up and Live! - Bob Marley"
"Holding anger is a poison. It eats you from inside. We think that hating is a weapon that attacks the person who harmed us. But hatred is a curved blade. And the harms we do, we do to ourselves.   - Mitch Albom"

[Skrimskraw]

I feel like this has destroyed the fun that was the community, it's not fun to sit there and watch people fight and bicker in lobbies or in the middle of matches because, something that shouldn't have happened, happened, however as a person, I would really like the community to just move on before it ends up shattering itself and further people get upset, I understand certain sects of the community are upset right now, but the arguments and fights are spilling over into the parts of the community who haven't even touched this, and have tried their best to stay neutral. We just need to pick up the pieces and move on gals/guys, its in the past and if we keep living in the past how can we live in present and think of the future?

"Life is one big road with lots of signs. So when you riding through the ruts, don't complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy. Don't bury your thoughts, put your vision to reality. Wake Up and Live! - Bob Marley"
"Holding anger is a poison. It eats you from inside. We think that hating is a weapon that attacks the person who harmed us. But hatred is a curved blade. And the harms we do, we do to ourselves.   - Mitch Albom"

yep its having a big impact on the community. it's time to just leave the conversation as it is. Muse cannot change the fact that asshole misoganists harass female player. They can however handle reports and issue warnings and bans, but international social injustice they cannot handle.
It's unfortunate that this happens, and I get that it is an unpleasant feeling that it is happening but this is what it is.

if you feel harassed ingame, block - report and stay away from that person, it goes all ways and that is what can be done about it in the first instance. but lydia mentioned something about her friends starting to become insulting towards women, take it up with them personally, true friends listen and respect eachothers lines.

[Lydia Litvyak]

yep its having a big impact on the community. it's time to just leave the conversation as it is. Muse cannot change the fact that asshole misoganists harass female player. They can however handle reports and issue warnings and bans, but international social injustice they cannot handle.
It's unfortunate that this happens, and I get that it is an unpleasant feeling that it is happening but this is what it is.

if you feel harassed ingame, block - report and stay away from that person, it goes all ways and that is what can be done about it in the first instance. but lydia mentioned something about her friends starting to become insulting towards women, take it up with them personally, true friends listen and respect eachothers lines.

Then I guess I do not have many true friends on here, because for the most part when I have brought this up I have been blown off and told I'm silly for being uncomfortable with it. In a community where this kind of behavior is treated as just a joke and totally okay or not a big enough issue for other people to step in and support the people who are alienated by it no one feels the need to change their behavior just because one person was upset and decided to talk to them about it.

It looks like that is that, then. If a mod says it is time to stop talking then it is time to stop talking. I suppose the moderation team has concluded that this is not an issue that is worth doing anything more about and that the onus should remain on female players to report, block, and move on every time they are harassed, and that is what it is. I had hoped we could arrive at something different but I understand that if making players like me feel safe is not a top priority then it is not a top priority and your time is better spent on other things. I'm sorry for bringing this up.

[Keyvias]

Hey Guys,

Want to jump in again. Just wanted to explain why Skrimskraw's post here is gone in case you saw it.
Skrimskraw was speaking from a player perspective and did not represent any views that Muse has. Due to any confusion especially with the CA tag the comment was removed.

As far as moderation goes the Muse Developers that go through every player report by hand. We take every issue seriously, from gender to race, to player privacy, any and all reports of player harassment are treated  with the severity a war crimes trial. We treat everyone in the game equally and we don't care who, what, where you are, if you're in our skies and abide by our community standards you are important to us and worthy of protection, attention and service.

Please block and report those who are harassing players for any reason. We act on these reports and it is amazingly important to us that we keep catching, punishing, and removing players who want to make our skies emotionally unsafe for any person to be in.

If we could push back to the main topic (in my opinion, and correct me if I'm wrong) which is not is harassment happening or to what severity, but how can I, the dev team, or the people in this thread help. What ideas does anyone have that we can implement.
The reason I have taken such special interest in this thread is I want to know what the best way I can help those dealing with harassment.

To paraphrase Redria:
There are things we don't know that we don't know about.

[redria]

I wrote the following before Keyvias posted. Feel free to read it.

I think the discussion, whether it is here or somewhere else on the forums, needs to take place. I think it needs to be somewhere visible.

From my perspective, and Lydia can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, the point of this thread is to call attention to an imbalance and look for recognition of it. To raise awareness and invite a friendly conversation for explanation and learning. This isn't just about the Girls of Icarus event, though it is an excellent example. This isn't just an event or two that can be put in the past, no matter how easy that path might be.

This also isn't looking for Muse to fix a social imbalance on their own. It isn't accusing every male of treating women poorly.

In every situation where a group of people is discriminated against by society, there will be a range of treatments for each person involved. Some people will have little to no history of mistreatment. Some people will have a lifetime of being wronged. Those on the other side are mostly only aware of the history of those with little to no history, along with knowing a couple examples of the worse abuses.

Where we are here is a point where men and women both need to recognize and acknowledge that women are being mistreated regularly. Not every woman equally. Your experiences will differ from every other person's. But it is a problem, and by acknowledging that it is a problem, we can create an environment where the problem can be discussed safely. Where we can think of solutions and help each other.

You don't have to do much. You can still play the game like you always have. Just recognize that every person you meet comes from somewhere different from yourself, and anything you say, even the small things, can have an impact on another person. If we see a blatant abuse we can address it, but the much more insidious problem is that so many people don't recognize the prevalence of mistreatment, in game and IRL.

Here, and anywhere else you go in life, if someone comes to you with a problem, the most important first step is to recognize that there is a problem.

More importantly, in case you miss Keyvias's post since mine is directly after, read his too:

Hey Guys,

Want to jump in again. Just wanted to explain why Skrimskraw's post here is gone in case you saw it.
Skrimskraw was speaking from a player perspective and did not represent any views that Muse has. Due to any confusion especially with the CA tag the comment was removed.

As far as moderation goes the Muse Developers that go through every player report by hand. We take every issue seriously, from gender to race, to player privacy, any and all reports of player harassment are treated  with the severity a war crimes trial. We treat everyone in the game equally and we don't care who, what, where you are, if you're in our skies and abide by our community standards you are important to us and worthy of protection, attention and service.

Please block and report those who are harassing players for any reason. We act on these reports and it is amazingly important to us that we keep catching, punishing, and removing players who want to make our skies emotionally unsafe for any person to be in.

If we could push back to the main topic (in my opinion, and correct me if I'm wrong) which is not is harassment happening or to what severity, but how can I, the dev team, or the people in this thread help. What ideas does anyone have that we can implement.
The reason I have taken such special interest in this thread is I want to know what the best way I can help those dealing with harassment.

To paraphrase Redria:
There are things we don't know that we don't know about.

[HamsterIV]

I feel like this has destroyed the fun that was the community, it's not fun to sit there and watch people fight and bicker in lobbies or in the middle of matches because, something that shouldn't have happened, happened, however as a person, I would really like the community to just move on before it ends up shattering itself and further people get upset,

I feel this conversation proves the strength of the community. We care enough about our standing and reputation here not to troll or bully people who have a different point of view. I don't agree with all that Lydia has said, but she has the right to say it and others have the right to disagree in a respectful manner. This is a heavy topic but I think it can be discussed without it turning nasty. If you are looking for fun check out the "Codex Zuka" or "Ban the user above you" threads.

[Felkin]

I feel like this has destroyed the fun that was the community, it's not fun to sit there and watch people fight and bicker in lobbies or in the middle of matches because, something that shouldn't have happened, happened, however as a person, I would really like the community to just move on before it ends up shattering itself and further people get upset,

I feel this conversation proves the strength of the community. We care enough about our standing and reputation here not to troll or bully people who have a different point of view. I don't agree with all that Lydia has said, but she has the right to say it and others have the right to disagree in a respectful manner. This is a heavy topic but I think it can be discussed without it turning nasty. If you are looking for fun check out the "Codex Zuka" or "Ban the user above you" threads.

Sadly it has turned nasty, people are fighting all the time, this isn't being handled like mature adults it's being handled like kids in High school.

[Dev Bubbles]

Hi everyone,
Let me weigh in on the topic at hand as well as some of the suggestions made for us to perform moderation better. 

So far, the tangible suggestions for us are two: 
1) To obscure the notification to reported player so that they don't speculate who reported them.  This was an byproduct that we did not anticipate, and currently, our solution is to add a delay to receipt of notification of being reported.  The timer I'm recommending is 30min.  Of course, there is a chance that the reported person may not receive the report due to the delay.  However, we do take notice of every single report that comes through as you know, so we can still act on the report asap.

2) More status updates for the reporter to know status of report filed.  Our solution for this is to add notification via email of 2 states of progress - when we received and view the report, and when an action is taken.  Please note that we also need to protect individuals' privacy and protect the community against reporters who may not be well intended.  Thus, we can only say that we have viewed or have taken some form of action.  In other words, we will not be disclosing the specifics of our actions taken.  I think the reasoning is obvious here, so hope this is understandable. 

We will try our best to implement these for the next update. 

Now, for the issue of gender discrimination, let me add to and expand on Matt's comments above.  We as a dev team do not condone sexual harassment or gender discrimination in the same way that we do not condone discrimination period.  This is how we are as a team, and this is how we aim for for our community.  We kill ourselves to go through all the reports, and to distinguish severity and take action.  Perhaps we don't always respond instantly or in the time you expect, and we understand that for you, these issues can't wait a minute longer than immediately, but do note this.  We have to sleep sometimes to keep our sanity.  I would ask for a tiny bit of latitude and understanding, before reaching the conclusion that we are lazy or don't care. 

About forming groups for different interests, my position is, anyone is free to form whatever group or clan they so choose.  And we support the formation of all interest groups as long as people enjoy the game and abide by our community standards and terms of use.  We aim to treat everyone equally.  Everyone is our customer, and we try to do our best to make sure everyone enjoy the game.    I sincerely hope we can treat everyone with respect and judge us by the strength of our personality, character, intellect, and citizenship, and not by our appearances. 

Thanks everyone, Howard

[Mean Machine]

I feel like this has destroyed the fun that was the community, it's not fun to sit there and watch people fight and bicker in lobbies or in the middle of matches because, something that shouldn't have happened, happened, however as a person, I would really like the community to just move on before it ends up shattering itself and further people get upset, I understand certain sects of the community are upset right now, but the arguments and fights are spilling over into the parts of the community who haven't even touched this, and have tried their best to stay neutral. We just need to pick up the pieces and move on gals/guys, its in the past and if we keep living in the past how can we live in present and think of the future?

"Life is one big road with lots of signs. So when you riding through the ruts, don't complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy. Don't bury your thoughts, put your vision to reality. Wake Up and Live! - Bob Marley"
"Holding anger is a poison. It eats you from inside. We think that hating is a weapon that attacks the person who harmed us. But hatred is a curved blade. And the harms we do, we do to ourselves.   - Mitch Albom"

Destroyed fun community? Well, I'm sorry, but I don't think trolls and harassers are fun and by the looks of it, problem is big enough that OP decided to make a thread about it. And she probably didn't make this topic to get a consoling comments, she hopes something can be done about it. Now, I don't have any ideas, but at least I wouldn't go as far to say, "Hey, this topic is making me feel bad".
People are simply discussing how to fix this and exchanging their opinions, I feel sorry for you if you find this as "destroying fun of community".
What if you will need help in the future and you will ask devs, mods or community for help and they would reply with a comment like: "Eh, I'm afraid this could affect other people that will read this forum". If you don't like the thread, you can simply ignore it. No offense.

No wonder this stuff is getting more and more common. Because every single day world is getting more dirty, greedy, unfair, cruel etc.
We are at the point where bad stuff happens everyday and no one wants to do anything about it. They rather ignore it, because it's easier. Or some people even see it as "normal". Like some crazy idiot beating his dog to death and then police comes and ask his neighbour about info and he says "well, i think this is normal, it happens every day." - happened few days ago not for the first time. Or also not long ago dude beat up a pregnant woman and there were about 10 random people standing ten feet away and watching with their hands literally crossed. Like they are on some show. And no, this stuff doesn't happen "only in America".

I know these are more extreme cases, but hey, everything has it's begging. One day someone will harass a girl online, next week he will find a victim in real life and god knows what to do with her...

I know men are thinking differently and can overlook things, or don't understand things, I know, I'm also a dude and I would be lying if I's say I understand females more then anyone here, but I can imagine how tough it is for them. It's sad they can't enjoy themselves and relax even in a fucking game where we all come to relax and get away from real life problems. It really is sad.

I've seen enough bullying and harassing in school and I'll be honest I didn't always do my best to stop it. I could probably stop it, but I didn't. I was a kid. I was stupid. But now, I couldn't sleep if I'd just simply ignore someone who really needs help.

Anyway, like I said, I don't really have any good ideas to fix this, but I just wanted to say that it's good to see that people are actually discussing about it. Unfortunately the best advice I could give is same as pretty much everyone else said, report and block, but I do hope someone gets better idea how to deal with those people.