Author Topic: goio's great community  (Read 61962 times)

Offline Imagine

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Re: goio's great community
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2014, 07:33:02 pm »
2. Forum denizens. Mezhu's a great guy. He also thought that "borg" was bad enough that it deserved its own satirical parody "morg". That's a little weird, because I don't see anything in "borg" bad enough to be worth mocking, but evidently mezhu disagrees. I'd like to know why. He doesn't deserve to be yelled at like that. I really don't get the joke either, but that's no excuse for making graphic references to mezhu's genitals. Not cool.

I've made this known a few people, but might as well state it here: Until that is resolved, I'm going to do the only thing I can, which is refuse to cast any match Mezhu's in.
Just as an update, I've been asked to not participate in SCS casting because of my refusal to work with someone from non-competitive reasons. I accept that reasoning, but do have to mention that the organizers of the event have sided with the originator of the posting pretty adamantly.

So, make of it what you will.

Offline Velvet

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Re: goio's great community
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2014, 09:31:26 pm »
2. Forum denizens. Mezhu's a great guy. He also thought that "borg" was bad enough that it deserved its own satirical parody "morg". That's a little weird, because I don't see anything in "borg" bad enough to be worth mocking, but evidently mezhu disagrees. I'd like to know why. He doesn't deserve to be yelled at like that. I really don't get the joke either, but that's no excuse for making graphic references to mezhu's genitals. Not cool.

I've made this known a few people, but might as well state it here: Until that is resolved, I'm going to do the only thing I can, which is refuse to cast any match Mezhu's in.
Just as an update, I've been asked to not participate in SCS casting because of my refusal to work with someone from non-competitive reasons. I accept that reasoning, but do have to mention that the organizers of the event have sided with the originator of the posting pretty adamantly.

So, make of it what you will.
while I have expressed the opinion that Mezhu was making a joke rather than an attack, I wouldn't go so far as to say my stance is "adamant".

Offline Piemanlives

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Re: goio's great community
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2014, 03:03:33 am »
@Velvet and Imagine.

Friendly notice to keep the discussion civil or take it to PMs.


Offline Imagine

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Re: goio's great community
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2014, 04:10:24 am »
@Velvet and Imagine.

Friendly notice to keep the discussion civil or take it to PMs.
Wasn't a discussion. Simple statement of what happened.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: goio's great community
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2014, 04:48:17 am »
Like everybody else who's been playing for more than a few weeks, I really love goio's community. I love how things are structured (for now) such that getting to know all the other regular players is inevitable, and how social the game is while remaining a serious competitive game. But I feel like the community has an overblown opinion of how inclusive it is, particularly when it comes to women.

I'm going to be blunt here: I get catcalled, told to suck various parts of people's anatomy, and have graphic things said about my body more in goio than I do in dota. You know, the game full of racist, misogynistic 14 year olds? Yeah, that dota. And while it pains me to say this, no one here seems at all interested in fixing this. As far as I can tell, making sure female players feel safe is secondary to making sure toxic, aggressive male players feel welcomed. I've had people threaten to rape me or other female players with mods or even muse employees literally in the lobby listening to it happen and to my knowledge nothing was ever done about it. If it was, it was only after it was way too late anyway.

The backlash to the girls of icarus event is just another aspect of this. One of the ideas behind it is to give female players a chance to play without having to worry about that stuff happening, and to connect with other people who they can talk about these issues with. But the community as a whole has reacted by lampooning it, decrying it as sexist, and making fun of it in lobby chat. Female-only events or subgroups are not unheard of, and many other communities have collectively acknowledged that they're a pretty reasonable thing to have. Why not goio?

It's like half the guys in this community are more upset at the idea of me wanting to be able to play without getting threatened or catcalled than they are at the reality of me getting threatened and catcalled.

I guess what I'm saying here is that I'm really disappointed. I like you guys, and I want to believe you're better than this.



That is not a joke, I really am applauding right now.

Offline Chmielewski

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Re: goio's great community
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2014, 06:10:22 am »

b) - "OMG YOU SOUND SO CUTE" objectification

oh. I recall that I had said something like that to you before. If you've gotten upset about that, I'm really sorry, I just wanted to made a compliment, not a harrasment. So I'm sorry.

As for the topic. It's a shame that this happens. I've never seen something like this, but if I ever do, I'd try to stop it as soon as possible - and everyone should, I think.  I believe that this people can be persuaded, if you talk to them... if you're man, it's ashame.

Offline B'Elanna

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Re: goio's great community
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2014, 01:31:52 pm »

b) - "OMG YOU SOUND SO CUTE" objectification

oh. I recall that I had said something like that to you before. If you've gotten upset about that, I'm really sorry, I just wanted to made a compliment, not a harrasment. So I'm sorry.

As for the topic. It's a shame that this happens. I've never seen something like this, but if I ever do, I'd try to stop it as soon as possible - and everyone should, I think.  I believe that this people can be persuaded, if you talk to them... if you're man, it's ashame.

Well not quite, it happens so often I don't remember single people who did it on what day.
However you took my statement out of context see...

Yet my airship- engineering days are filled with dialogues like:
"Oh you're new. While your Hwacha reloads you can use the Gat on the side. Just count to 14, by the end of it you should be back in the gun to reload the rounds. Heavy for less recoil, burst for mid to short range disable."
a) - "Nice voice changer" disbelieve
b) - "OMG YOU SOUND SO CUTE" objectification
- EITHER WAY: ONE EAR IN THE OTHER OUT

It's okay if you consider me cute. I mean, of course it's very flattering!
But there is always a series of considerations to make to tell if it's appropriate to confront me with.

* DOES IT HAVE TO BE SAID?
* DOES IT HAVE TO BE SAID - BY ME?
* DOES IT HAVE TO BE SAID - BY ME - NOW?

When I ask someone what rounds you want me to take, or explain you your load out, i want them to interact with me like a human being and don't just disregard everything I said, because they couldn't concentrate on what I said, because they just waited for my mouth to shut because these absolute strangers have to rate my voice and assign my worth before we can continue.

If you know someone already, maybe ask them first before you make them a compliment.
It's not so hard, try to not make the question in itself sound too pressuring, else it's counter-productive. Have an example:
Quote
"Ohai. Is it very weird if I randomly compliment you?"
- nothing? : don't do it!
- "oh we're in the middle of a game" : don't do it!
- "sure?" : proceed!
"I just think you sound really cute! I hope that didn't make you uncomfortable"
ACTUALLY the most sensible thing to do is doing that in a PM and not across a lobby...

To sum up:
* Don't interrupt women with "compliments" (commenting on them)
* Don't comment on women's voices publicly in a lobby chat without their consent.
* First approaches discreetly and personally, don't pressure them, don't embarrass them.
AND YES ALL THOSE THINGS ARE VALID EVEN IF YOU KNOW THE WOMEN!
If you're dating them: ASK THEM HOW THEY WANT TO BE TREATED BEFOREHAND!

This was an elaboration on your comment Archi Rook. I don't remember you offending me.
But it's a good opportunity to explain in general why commenting on women is often seen as a validation space and being taken seriously. :)

Offline Skrimskraw

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Re: goio's great community
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2014, 01:36:17 pm »

b) - "OMG YOU SOUND SO CUTE" objectification

oh. I recall that I had said something like that to you before. If you've gotten upset about that, I'm really sorry, I just wanted to made a compliment, not a harrasment. So I'm sorry.

As for the topic. It's a shame that this happens. I've never seen something like this, but if I ever do, I'd try to stop it as soon as possible - and everyone should, I think.  I believe that this people can be persuaded, if you talk to them... if you're man, it's ashame.

Well not quite, it happens so often I don't remember single people who did it on what day.
However you took my statement out of context see...

Yet my airship- engineering days are filled with dialogues like:
"Oh you're new. While your Hwacha reloads you can use the Gat on the side. Just count to 14, by the end of it you should be back in the gun to reload the rounds. Heavy for less recoil, burst for mid to short range disable."
a) - "Nice voice changer" disbelieve
b) - "OMG YOU SOUND SO CUTE" objectification
- EITHER WAY: ONE EAR IN THE OTHER OUT

It's okay if you consider me cute. I mean, of course it's very flattering!
But there is always a series of considerations to make to tell if it's appropriate to confront me with.

* DOES IT HAVE TO BE SAID?
* DOES IT HAVE TO BE SAID - BY ME?
* DOES IT HAVE TO BE SAID - BY ME - NOW?

When I ask someone what rounds you want me to take, or explain you your load out, i want them to interact with me like a human being and don't just disregard everything I said, because they couldn't concentrate on what I said, because they just waited for my mouth to shut because these absolute strangers have to rate my voice and assign my worth before we can continue.

If you know someone already, maybe ask them first before you make them a compliment.
It's not so hard, try to not make the question in itself sound too pressuring, else it's counter-productive. Have an example:
Quote
"Ohai. Is it very weird if I randomly compliment you?"
- nothing? : don't do it!
- "oh we're in the middle of a game" : don't do it!
- "sure?" : proceed!
"I just think you sound really cute! I hope that didn't make you uncomfortable"
ACTUALLY the most sensible thing to do is doing that in a PM and not across a lobby...

To sum up:
* Don't interrupt women with "compliments" (commenting on them)
* Don't comment on women's voices publicly in a lobby chat without their consent.
* First approaches discreetly and personally, don't pressure them, don't embarrass them.
AND YES ALL THOSE THINGS ARE VALID EVEN IF YOU KNOW THE WOMEN!
If you're dating them: ASK THEM HOW THEY WANT TO BE TREATED BEFOREHAND!

This was an elaboration on your comment Archi Rook. I don't remember you offending me.
But it's a good opportunity to explain in general why commenting on women is often seen as a validation space and being taken seriously. :)

are you speaking for yourself, or for every female gamer?

Offline B'Elanna

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Re: goio's great community
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2014, 01:50:05 pm »
what? that you should know it's okay to comment publicly on someone's voice before doing so?

well, that's called being a decent human being and communicating with someone, instead of commenting about someone...

that's a general thing i didn't invent.

Offline sparklerfish

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Re: goio's great community
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2014, 02:30:45 pm »
Yesterday I was in a lobby and someone on the opposing team complimented our gunner on "his mining skills".  When they discovered I am not a he, the lobby collapsed into the chaos, immaturity, and offensive remarks that always come along with being a woman on the internet and especially in an online game.  I try to stick to flying with friends so that this occurs less often, but it is really frustrating to see that this is still so commonplace in a community that prides itself on being friendlier and better than other online games.

Women who play games are just people who play games.  Stop freaking out.  And no, you can't have my phone number.

Offline Aayra

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Re: goio's great community
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2014, 02:41:22 pm »
I feel like I want to reply to various things in this thread and threads related to this one.

1. First of all, as has been written here, you simply can´t count 12 years old trolls that have to boost their little ego by insulting and harrassing people as a part of the community. Harassement is pathetic, annoying and humaliating, no normal adult person can agree with it. But trolls were always here, and always will be. Accept the fact. "Female gamer" is not a rarity anymore, but in is not anyone´s fault that some people can´t see it yet and behave accordingly.

2. Deal with it. Fight back, ignore, block, report, your choice. But don´t feed them. And it is the fact that fighting back would be in most cases just feeding more. I think ignoring is the best option here. They will get tired eventually if they won´t have the attention. This is literally all you can do. Report people, describe the problem, make evidence, if necessary and let mods and devs deal with the problem, nothing else can be done here. Posting it on the forum maybe make people pay more attention to it but it won´t solve the problem. It also opens a big discussion full of arguments and offensive posts, like can be seen here and in related threads.

3. It works both ways. I witnessed a lot of random female individuals in lobbies, that were basically taunting the trolls. Absolutely attention who....seeking, provoking them and then whining and complaining about harassement, trying to get support from other people in the lobby, to save their dignity. But again, I don´t consider these players a part of community either. They are rare, but that doesn´t mean they don´t exist. The point I am trying to make here is, that there are black sheeps on both sides, that are making all the others in the group (in this case female and male group) look bad. The female ones are just more noticable.

4. BORG. I can clearly see the point they are trying to make. And by all means, go for it. Make it work, have fun. Honestly, it would be a great achievement if you managed to make it work.  But don´t be surprised that some individuals don´t want to participate.
Personally, the idea of separating myself from the others and playing with random girls I don´t even know, just because we have the same genitals, instead of playing with friends, seems a bit silly to me. But that is just my opinion. And I think it is more than understandable that not all people share other people´s opinions and points of view. I can see it clearly, I understand, but I don´t share it, sorry.

Also maybe if you stopped making us all look like a little birds, fragile creatures that need to be shielded under BORG (I know this not the primary idea of BORG, but some things that I saw in that post and also here are sending this exact message), that need to be approached carefully, that need to be protected by others, and instead of that try to deal with the situation, it would help. If you want all that respect and "equality". I am aware that I am being really straight forward here, but like you are bothered with certain things, this is bothering me. I know it sounds pretty offensive, but I don´t really know how to write it in a more sensitive way, and honestly, I wouldn´t, because I am not making this post to write meaningless sentences and not actually saying what I want to say. I hope you can see my point.

Nevertheless, I am not against the idea as a whole, and I hope you will make it work. I am just sad that it became such a big deal and a subject of unnecessary discussions. It is just a group of people that happen to be females, that wants to play together, let it go. It can be considered sexist, but just...let it go. Do people really need to argue about everything?

5. MORG. It is a joke. Good or bad, that is up to everyone individually to consider. It is clear that it was a response to BORG post, everyone can see it. But I still think it was pretty hilarious, with or without the context. Although I can see how offesive it must be for some people, and it is understandable. It is basically mocking the idea of BORG, which is not nice, but again, do we have to take these things so seriously?

Also, B´Elanna, giving people orders (yes orders, these are not suggestions or advices) how to behave towards women? Really? You are talking to the community here, not the trolls.

My last thought is that it is actually really nice to see people considering this as a real problem, and willing to make the situation at least slightly better, that is what makes this community great to be part of.

zlater75@hotmail.com

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Re: goio's great community
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2014, 04:10:12 pm »
+1

I agree with Aayra. So many personalities, it gets easy to confuse or misinterpret, while the main matter gets bypassed.
Especially on a forum or chat.

Anyone can get harassed, insulted or offended. I have been that ingame, done some reports, ignored them or spoke my mind. In the prime goio time i think it's less of an issue with more CAs on and people that would not let this happen. At least not seen it happen at that time that much. That we owe thanks to CAs and people who want to keep the community clean. How to battle the times prior and after that prime time is more difficult.
Help and more work is needed to keep things civil, fun and fair. Overreacting or underreacting makes things worse. Making a minor matter a huge issue or vice versa eludes the whole point of the matter. Discussing it constructively is a good step forward. Stereotyping the majority, patronising or discriminating is a big step backward.

EDIT: I kinda miss the list of CAs under the social tab ingame. Made it much easier to contact when needed. I even thought it was removed completely until someone just now told me it's under the community tab page on that wide button, which i noticed for the first time.  :o A bit too discreet imho. Also when you write a long report and the match starts and you have to do it all over again. >.<
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 04:22:05 pm by genozide »

Offline shaelyn

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Re: goio's great community
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2014, 08:55:28 pm »
I keep coming back to this thread not quite knowing what to say or do.  I'm not going to go into my experiences here; that's not going to help solve anything.  we've already established this is a problem.  it's a problem that's going to come up over and over again.  as this community grows, there will always be different kinds of gamers who will start playing - and that'll include people that think it's okay to objectify and harass women.  it does sound like the system has so low visibility that someone having the issue over and over again just feels like they're talking to the atmosphere and getting nowhere with it.  I don't think it's a bad idea to know that our reports have been handled, at the bare minimum.  I doubt it'd be wise to add details to them; that's a bit of a catch 22.  if we know how our reports are being handled, and we don't like how they were handled, it could mean the system is broke or it could mean perspective or bias may be getting in the way - and that could open up a new can of worms.  either could, and they're on opposite ends of the productivity scale.
but knowing that the situation is being handled I believe is the key here, since we can't otherwise handle it ourselves.  knowing our voice is being heard is important.  frankly, it makes it easier to keep fighting.

of course, we need a way for a "your report has been handled" message to get to us.  I do think the PM system within the game could be better.  if there were some sort of an inbox system in-game where your offline PMs and PMs you otherwise choose to save would go, even if just up to a certain limit of messages, that'd enable us to get a notification when our reports were handled.  otherwise...not everyone looks at the forums; how would we get the message?  I guess the better question to ask here is, when someone is reported and action is taken, how is the person that the action is taken against notified?  could the reporter get a notification the same way, and will that be adequate?

Offline Lydia Litvyak

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Re: goio's great community
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2014, 10:52:26 pm »
It is really sad that asking that my efforts to make a safe and fun space be respected and not ridiculed are seen as "patronising and discriminating".

And Aayra, I understand what you are saying but asking for support is not asking to be treated like a fragile thing that needs protection. Harassers rely on the silence of the people around them to continue preying on people, and if bystanders are not silent then they cannot continue. This is a good thing.

Not wanting to participate is a very different thing from openly badmouthing the entire idea in lobby chat. I am not interested in participating in lots of things, but I do not go up to the people organizing them to tell them their ideas are stupid because they do not cater to me. It would be nice if other goio players could show the same respect to me and B'Elanna.

PS: genitals have and always have had nothing to do with any of this.

zlater75@hotmail.com

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Re: goio's great community
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2014, 02:54:17 am »
I mentioned that generally speaking. Not directed at anyone specific. If i see harassment or disrespecting of someone in a lobby i have acted and will do so in the future. Going too far is going too far no matter who or against who. But like said before anyone can appear into this game and break the conduct rules. It is an open game. But i am sorry to hear that it has been as serious as you have posted.