hide ship loadouts from the enemy team

[shaelyn]

I...really don't know if this is a good idea or not.  it's a thought I had though; give me some feedback, y'all.

largely, I'm just thinking of alternate ways to start matches more quickly.  if a team can't see the enemy's ship loadouts, they're going to base their own loadout on their teammate and the map only.  it's less to think about, and less to worry about if the enemy team decides to change their strategy.  it's a bit more realistic too.

I see the downside of not being able to help new players on the other team with their loadouts before a match, if you were so inclined.

maybe this could be an optional thing when you create the match lobby?  thoughts?

[Hoja Lateralus]

Well since just swapping ships over and over just to counter each other CAN be a problem I don't see a reason why this wouldn't work.

[sparklerfish]

I like the strategic element of being able to plan your build around the enemies' builds (and also your piloting tools -- why pack drogue chute if they don't have lumber or carro? chute vent or hydrogen to avoid certain weapons' arcs?)  You would have to select some of your piloting tools basically at random and hope your guess was correct, I suppose.

I don't really see lobbies being held up much by builds constantly changing to counter one another.  By and large the reason I see lobbies being held up is an unresponsive player.  I think eliminating being able to see enemy builds would remove an important aspect of the game's strategy while not really addressing the "Lobbies of Icarus" problem.

[Sprayer]

It's not really a question wether it's a good idea or not. It's more wether people like or dislike the metagame of choosing counterbuilds over and over.

[GeoRmr]

It's not really a question wether it's a good idea or not. It's more wether people like or dislike the metagame of choosing counterbuilds over and over.

Not being able to see the enemy ships will force teams to play only meta builds that have consistent results if they want to win, because they can't tailor specific (more fun/situation dependent) counter strategies.

also

[Sprayer]

If everyone was using the metabuilds but wouldn't that eventually result in a higher occurence of builds that counter metas?

[Omniraptor]

That's what I thought too. Other games with blind pick don't seem to have this problem..

[GeoRmr]

If everyone was using the metabuilds but wouldn't that eventually result in a higher occurence of builds that counter metas?

Wouldn't they in turn be metabuilds?

[Omniraptor]

no, I'm pretty sure someone would think of something to counter those too, so they won't be metabuilds.

[Canon Whitecandle]

I like the strategic element of being able to plan your build around the enemies' builds (and also your piloting tools -- why pack drogue chute if they don't have lumber or carro? chute vent or hydrogen to avoid certain weapons' arcs?)  You would have to select some of your piloting tools basically at random and hope your guess was correct, I suppose.

I don't really see lobbies being held up much by builds constantly changing to counter one another.  By and large the reason I see lobbies being held up is an unresponsive player.  I think eliminating being able to see enemy builds would remove an important aspect of the game's strategy while not really addressing the "Lobbies of Icarus" problem.

By and large pilots choose piloting tools not as a counter but as a way to either augment their ship's advantages or compensate for a ship's weaknesses. Always pack hydro on Pyrs and Junkers, always pack the parachute on a Mobula. Either you don't play pilot much or you're really funky.

[Spud Nick]

I  like to see the enemy team try to counter by builds in the lobby. Makes me feel proud of crew and my piloting skills if we win. And if we lose well hey, they were trying to counter us.

[sparklerfish]

By and large pilots choose piloting tools not as a counter but as a way to either augment their ship's advantages or compensate for a ship's weaknesses. Always pack hydro on Pyrs and Junkers, always pack the parachute on a Mobula. Either you don't play pilot much or you're really funky.

Both, I guess.  I won't claim to be a great pilot and I have spent a pretty small fraction of my total game time behind the helm, but some tools (notably drogue chute) seem specifically tailored to countering enemy builds.  If nobody has a balloon popping weapon I can instead bring another mobility tool or something.  A parachute is a useless slot filler if your balloon is intact the whole match.

[pandatopia]

I think it would be an interesting option - but definitely as an option. I don't think it would be a good forced setting. Perhaps it could work in matchmaking.

I do believe we'd see a ton of safe ships and far fewer experimentation in those games - but only in highly competitive settings.

I think it is interesting to let teams experiment to see what could work - perhaps against a variety of combinations.

For example if you're also outmatched (and you don't know it) you'd have to scramble to see how to get your poor loadouts to work, it could lead to some more out of the box strategies, if not builds.

[Lydia Litvyak]

I like the strategic element of being able to plan your build around the enemies' builds (and also your piloting tools -- why pack drogue chute if they don't have lumber or carro? chute vent or hydrogen to avoid certain weapons' arcs?)  You would have to select some of your piloting tools basically at random and hope your guess was correct, I suppose.

I don't really see lobbies being held up much by builds constantly changing to counter one another.  By and large the reason I see lobbies being held up is an unresponsive player.  I think eliminating being able to see enemy builds would remove an important aspect of the game's strategy while not really addressing the "Lobbies of Icarus" problem.

By and large pilots choose piloting tools not as a counter but as a way to either augment their ship's advantages or compensate for a ship's weaknesses. Always pack hydro on Pyrs and Junkers, always pack the parachute on a Mobula. Either you don't play pilot much or you're really funky.

I disagree. I would never take drogue on a mobula because if the enemy has that much balloon popping then I don't want to be in a mobula (for that matter I wouldn't take hydrogen on a junker either because that slot is better used for tar, but that's just me). As geo pointed out, hiding loadouts would force people to play more cautiously: if you don't know what your enemy has and you're in a junker or a mobula or a galleon, you probably do want the drogue chute and too bad about your mobility items.

While that's not something I'm interested in it could be a neat extra option for lobbies. Possibly private lobbies only--I would hate to have to sift through hidden loadout matches to find one where I could feel comfortable taking tools to augment my flying rather than tools to mitigate possible counter builds.

[Canon Whitecandle]

I like the strategic element of being able to plan your build around the enemies' builds (and also your piloting tools -- why pack drogue chute if they don't have lumber or carro? chute vent or hydrogen to avoid certain weapons' arcs?)  You would have to select some of your piloting tools basically at random and hope your guess was correct, I suppose.

I don't really see lobbies being held up much by builds constantly changing to counter one another.  By and large the reason I see lobbies being held up is an unresponsive player.  I think eliminating being able to see enemy builds would remove an important aspect of the game's strategy while not really addressing the "Lobbies of Icarus" problem.

By and large pilots choose piloting tools not as a counter but as a way to either augment their ship's advantages or compensate for a ship's weaknesses. Always pack hydro on Pyrs and Junkers, always pack the parachute on a Mobula. Either you don't play pilot much or you're really funky.

I disagree. I would never take drogue on a mobula because if the enemy has that much balloon popping then I don't want to be in a mobula (for that matter I wouldn't take hydrogen on a junker either because that slot is better used for tar, but that's just me). As geo pointed out, hiding loadouts would force people to play more cautiously: if you don't know what your enemy has and you're in a junker or a mobula or a galleon, you probably do want the drogue chute and too bad about your mobility items.

While that's not something I'm interested in it could be a neat extra option for lobbies. Possibly private lobbies only--I would hate to have to sift through hidden loadout matches to find one where I could feel comfortable taking tools to augment my flying rather than tools to mitigate possible counter builds.

Counter-building works fine for normal play but in even a semi-serious match you will be punished super hard for counter-building. In the few friendly matches I've played against DUCK or GENT trying to formulate a counter build against them saw us wiped close to 8 times in a row. Counter-builds don't seem to work in serious matches. Furthermore, if you are at the point where you don't even play a certain ship because of its counter I'd argue that the problem is much larger than simply seeing the enemy loadout.