Junker viability and builds

[HamsterIV]

I call that position "nose engie" or "hull engie." The main engie is the guy at the back of the ship responsible for the balloon, turning engines, shooting, the back guns, and fixing the hull if the nose gunner is too distracted. Even when playing with scrubs I try and run the junker with a nose engie and a back deck engie just so they learn crew positions. I try and have my back deck engie be the more experienced player.

[BlackenedPies]

I call the hull engi the main engi on every ship. Sometimes I like to use colors for quick orders: hull blue, balloon red, gunner green. "On reloads green tap engine blue chem hull"

Not knowing what to do on a ship is a common and separate problem. If the pilot doesn't give you a recommended loadout and tell you what to do, then they don't know either. If you fly with an experienced pilot they will tell you what to do and they will be using 'this' junker setup.

If a junker is getting disabled the pilot will reposition by using altitude. The junker has excellent maneuverability so use that to avoid disables. Reposition and disable them. Buffed balloons are very powerful. The meta junker setup will out repair and out gun alternative setups.

[Sammy B. T.]

It's not just a matter of arcs.  The Galleon, Mobula, Spire, do trifectas effortlessly, so no, a trifecta is not much of strength for the junker.  The Pyramidion is also capable of it

Its not just capability to do trifectas with arcs but more an issue of crew work. The Junker is better for trifectas due to spread out crew. Sure a pyra has an easy trifecta but the third gunman is also in charge of armor and three engines. The Junker probably the most well spread out ship in terms of crew responsibilities.

.   The hull sweet spot, a gimmick, should not be essential to a ship's success.

IIRC the devs have said its not a gimmick or a mistake but by design.

I, and I believe the original poster, are not discussing highest level play so I don't care how useless you might find the gunner class or some supposed one only viable build.

Wasn't talking about classes or anything, just general roles.

If you're not using trifectas, why use a junker? Without a front engineer you're just a crab pyramidion with an odd balloon.

Oversimplification.  There are clearly advantages and disadvantes to Junker compared to Pyramidion without concern to trifectas.  I shouldn't have to elaborate.
[/quote]

Sure its a bit of an oversimplification but its still giving up probably the best edge a junker has against other ships.

[DJ Logicalia]

Let it be said, Sammy & The Ducks are probably the best junker pilots in the game so they know what they're talking about

please don't start a debate please don't start a debate

[Alistair MacBain]

A competent pyra pilto can kill any junker that isnt aware of balloon rams.
You dont need ljs or carronades to abuse the junkers balloon as an enemy.
A pyra ramming your balloon and staying on top of you will get you down.

[Mysterious Medic]

What I'm more surprised by is that someone is confused by the concept of a "main engineer" or hull engineer shooting. Basically every ship with high firepower needs a hull engineer shooting. Spire top deck, mobula hull side, and galleon main engineer are all examples of this. If anything, it's a lot harder on those ships, and the engineer is punished more for not being on point. The mobulas hull is so much farther in compared to the 2 steps it takes on a junker. If you think your engineer won't know to stop shooting when taking too much damage then you should simply not take a ship with high firepower. If I have pubs on my ship I basically usually limit myself to goldfish or pyra. I used to have the patience for explaining everything but that was lost long ago. So really, I agree this setup could be bad for novice crew members, but to be honest I really doubt novice crew members would take or know what a "meta junker" is, or they would think it's a junker with two symmetrical gat mortar sides. Judging by this it's pretty fair to say it's usually not the best to compare pubs to doing things at the height of efficiency.

[Kain Phalanx]

IIRC the devs have said its not a gimmick or a mistake but by design.

Then it's bad design.  It should be fixed to be easier and more apparent.

What I'm more surprised by is that someone is confused by the concept of a "main engineer" or hull engineer shooting.

You're confused if you think I'm confused.  I'm arguing that making the main engineer shoot for a trifecta on specifically the junker is prohibitively convoluted for the majority of builds and crews.  Your few and limited examples are not very compelling in the idea that hull engineers need to be firing guns often.  Your cemented idea that the Junker, a ship with five small guns in three different directions is a high firepower ship instead of a resilient, versatile ship is what I'm contesting.  While a trifecta is possible, it is not necessarily optimal in the ship's strategic use, like in the case of the Pyramidion.  If you want a small gun trifecta, the Mobula exists for just that.

[Kamoba]

But the trifecta is not a good strategy for pyramidions in many cases, against many ships it leaves you open to a ram which will throw your main guns off arc, Junkers are resiliant yes but opening the angle for trifecta means a ram will still leave your main guns in arc only knocking the front gun off arc...

Again it is dependant on the situation but more often than not a pyramidion should concentrate more on front guns and brawling rams or better positioning than worrying about trifecta..

However this is mostly concerning competitive tactics. In pub matches I do agree trifecta with hull engineer on a junker is not a good idea as they will often forget the repairs, but this is a very different situation...

[Kain Phalanx]

But the trifecta is not a good strategy for pyramidions in many cases, against many ships it leaves you open to a ram which will throw your main guns off arc, Junkers are resiliant yes but opening the angle for trifecta means a ram will still leave your main guns in arc only knocking the front gun off arc...

With the junker having the best arc coverage in game, usually the most armor in the game, being surprisingly nimble, and having a close, abusable balloon for altitude escapes, it is surely the ship least concerned about being rammed.  Furthermore, with this godmode trifecta, I have to wonder why it's getting rammed to begin with.

However this is mostly concerning competitive tactics. In pub matches I do agree trifecta with hull engineer on a junker is not a good idea as they will often forget the repairs, but this is a very different situation...

Right, it's not a good idea.  Unless you're using this advanced, specialist strategy with a pre-trained crew, it all falls apart.  This means a normal junker should not have someone on the front gun at all times, a gunner should not be bottom deck, and one guy should focus almost completely on repairs.

[Kamoba]

When I run Junker in pubs I have a gunner and gungineer, with a main engi, the main engi can shoot the merc on approach to enemies but will.soon find himself out of arc when its time for engagement, pushing him to repairs...

Junker balloon rams are very effective if their pilot is not prepared for it, and can often lead to painful goomba stomps, again situational, a good junker pilot often stays high keeping them safe from such situations (as discussed above.)

[Kain Phalanx]

When I run Junker in pubs I have a gunner and gungineer, with a main engi, the main engi can shoot the merc on approach to enemies but will.soon find himself out of arc when its time for engagement, pushing him to repairs...

Junker balloon rams are very effective if their pilot is not prepared for it, and can often lead to painful goomba stomps, again situational, a good junker pilot often stays high keeping them safe from such situations (as discussed above.)

The problem with the main engineer being on the merc is that he couldn't be farther from where he needs to be, which is near hull or balloon/turning engines.  It's an inefficient transition.  He can use the hull ramp trick, but that requires special knowledge and he will eventually have to make himself up top deck anyways.  The gungineer bottomdeck is also ill-suited for it because of lack of ammo types.  The gunner with access to three ammo types should man the merc while the buff engineer buffs it on approach.  For middle range the gunner transitions port, top side guns to avoid the boxes.  Starboard should be close range or utility.

[Kamoba]

That's assuming I turn too late, I'll  be out of merc arc before engagement and normally trying to explain to him why he should leave the gun alone.
As for your suggestion, that's good but normally with pub crews the buff engineer is doing buffs to.hunt acheivs and getting them to buff anything other than that achievement can be a real pain.. Unless its a green name.

The problem i find when i ask a gunner to man the merc (we are speaking strictly public matches) the gunner will often start demanding the ship be turned into merc arc rather than using the lower deck guns, it really does depend how aware and co-operative the crew are..
With friends i rarely need to say anything beyond "main" "gunner" "gungineer"

[BlackenedPies]

I don't agree with the ramming talk.
First, the trifecta side is almost always the long range side so you won't be rammed on that side.
A good junker pilot will dodge any ram from a goldfish or pyra as long as they have room. This is very easy with buffed engines and/or balloon.
The point is don't get rammed! If you have engines and balloon and room you can dodge it. Every time I've been rammed (with healthy components) is because I let myself get rammed.

I agree that it should be a bit easier to repair from the front. It's like if you had to repair the top engine of the pyra at a more specific angle.

As a pilot in pub matches your mic is your best friend. If you sound confident and give clear instructions, your crew will follow. If you don't have a mic or don't use it, your ship will fail. If they mess up don't yell at them.
I tend to talk more than most pilots, mostly to give relevant info to newer players, but also about our current situation/plan. If you micromanage your crew they will never have to guess what to do.
If they screw up be calm and explain. If you screw up admit it. Everyone gets better and your crew will trust you and stick around. Add them as friends and invite them to do the same.

[Kain Phalanx]

Pubs aren't always bottom of the barrel powder monkeys.  There's nothing you can do about them and it's fine to expect more from a crew.  The "man port guns" voice command should be sufficient in your scenario.  The problem you'll have there is the main engineer will get on the gun and then you have a gunner to repair things, so you may have to straighten that out from the start.  That's why I'm trying to establish some normalcy to crewing a junker.

[Kamoba]

I know not every pub match is bottom of the barrel, I've made many new friends through playing public matches and always try to keep in touch with those who are good, BlackenedPies, yes the microphone is the best asset, speaking two languages also helps but I am trying to give examples of worst case scenarios to explain why I sometimes change the guns away from the norm which has been mentioned multiple times. Also yes you are right balloon rams on junkers should be rare, but it still does happen and I was only using the rams for pyra versus junker explanation, a pyramidions trifecta is less effective than a junkers for many reasons, dodges included.

Main: There is a great guide "aboard a junker" its here in the forums and on steam, it has the basics of what most people consider the "norm" for a junker which has also been discussed earlier in the thread.